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Author Topic: It doesn't matter how it will get done...  (Read 7993 times)
Seth King
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« on: September 22, 2011, 01:25:33 PM »

because the initiation of violence is wrong. End of story.

Another brilliant video by Stefan Molyneux.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDVNL0VyaEI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDVNL0VyaEI</a>
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 10:00:19 AM »

That was amazing. I disagree with him about children being taught violence. While our pro-war, pro-police society does foster and encourage violence, violence is part of our sinful, corrupt nature that we are born with. Observing infants one can clearly see the jealousy being answered by them with aggression.

I sent this video to a statist friend who I've been debating with.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 06:28:57 PM »

That was amazing. I disagree with him about children being taught violence. While our pro-war, pro-police society does foster and encourage violence, violence is part of our sinful, corrupt nature that we are born with. Observing infants one can clearly see the jealousy being answered by them with aggression.

I sent this video to a statist friend who I've been debating with.
Children respond to the feedback they get from adults. If you laugh, they laugh. If you reject violence, so will they. I didn't want the discussion to get religious but it seems inevitable. There is no magic apple causing children to be "born corrupt and sinful". Some level of aggression is just part of being an animal, and has nothing to do specifically with humans, or talking snakes. Abolishing social institutions that encourage and champion violence is something that would help to curb these tendencies, no doubt.
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"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 06:37:39 PM »

That was amazing. I disagree with him about children being taught violence. While our pro-war, pro-police society does foster and encourage violence, violence is part of our sinful, corrupt nature that we are born with. Observing infants one can clearly see the jealousy being answered by them with aggression.

I sent this video to a statist friend who I've been debating with.
Children respond to the feedback they get from adults. If you laugh, they laugh. If you reject violence, so will they. I didn't want the discussion to get religious but it seems inevitable. There is no magic apple causing children to be "born corrupt and sinful". Some level of aggression is just part of being an animal, and has nothing to do specifically with humans, or talking snakes. Abolishing social institutions that encourage and champion violence is something that would help to curb these tendencies, no doubt.
I hadn't intended for it to be a religious debate about it. As Christians we view the heart as being corrupt and wicked, from birth on. I sense this as turning into a flame war, so we'll not debate it. It is rather trivial to the video topic.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 08:41:31 AM »

Quote
I hadn't intended for it to be a religious debate about it. As Christians we view the heart as being corrupt and wicked, from birth on. I sense this as turning into a flame war, so we'll not debate it. It is rather trivial to the video topic.

Agreed as to the trivialty, but I'd just like to point one thing out. The whole "born corrupt and sinful" thing isn't part of the original Torah/Tanakh. Christians added that notion with a verse from the New Testament hundreds of years later. Just something to think about when considering human nature.
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 09:33:08 AM »

I'm confused, does Stef claim a particular branch of anarchy?  Does anyone know what it is?
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Seth King
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 12:37:44 PM »

I'm confused, does Stef claim a particular branch of anarchy?  Does anyone know what it is?

Anarcho-capitalism.
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2011, 06:18:34 PM »

I'm confused, does Stef claim a particular branch of anarchy?  Does anyone know what it is?

Anarcho-capitalism.

The only logically consistent kind (in my opinion). 
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 10:39:56 PM »

I'm confused, does Stef claim a particular branch of anarchy?  Does anyone know what it is?

Anarcho-capitalism.

The only logically consistent kind (in my opinion). 
To which Stefan would respond: "What does your opinion have to do with the logical consistency of your claim?" Lol. No response needed, I'm just messing around.
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 12:24:32 AM »

I'm confused, does Stef claim a particular branch of anarchy?  Does anyone know what it is?

Anarcho-capitalism.

The only logically consistent kind (in my opinion). 
To which Stefan would respond: "What does your opinion have to do with the logical consistency of your claim?" Lol. No response needed, I'm just messing around.

I guess I'm just wary of making statements of the absolute.  "The only logical type".  Someone might prove me wrong.  Besides, there really is only anarchy.  As long as it's voluntary let a hundred systems develop and let people choose what they prefer.  Just don't force me into your system.  I personally will own property in an anarchic society and believe that property rights are crucial, so I call myself an anarcho-capitalist.  But if others wish to live in communes and share property I don't have a problem with that. 
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 12:41:33 AM »

I would tend to lean that way myself. The objectivism related content that Stefan produces is the only stuff I really don't like. Too much discussion of virtue, UPB, and hatred of relativism. Of course, if he didn't do that stuff, his views would be so well aligned my own that it would be scary. Recognizing the flaws in even the titans' work is what keeps you from being just another follower. I don't want to be a "Rothbardian" or a "Molynoid" anyways. Take what's good, debunk the rest, and move forward.
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"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
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Seth King
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 12:51:37 AM »

I would tend to lean that way myself. The objectivism related content that Stefan produces is the only stuff I really don't like. Too much discussion of virtue, UPB, and hatred of relativism. Of course, if he didn't do that stuff, his views would be so well aligned my own that it would be scary. Recognizing the flaws in even the titans' work is what keeps you from being just another follower. I don't want to be a "Rothbardian" or a "Molynoid" anyways. Take what's good, debunk the rest, and move forward.

What about a Kingsian?  Cheesy
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Script
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 01:57:24 AM »

I would tend to lean that way myself. The objectivism related content that Stefan produces is the only stuff I really don't like. Too much discussion of virtue, UPB, and hatred of relativism. Of course, if he didn't do that stuff, his views would be so well aligned my own that it would be scary. Recognizing the flaws in even the titans' work is what keeps you from being just another follower. I don't want to be a "Rothbardian" or a "Molynoid" anyways. Take what's good, debunk the rest, and move forward.

What about a Kingsian?  Cheesy

Sounds cultish.  Time for us to get a compound and start stock piling flamethrowers, and Howitzers.  Wink 

Nah, I agree with JustSayNoToStatism, humans are all imperfect so take the good and leave the rest. 
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David Giessel
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 02:03:18 AM »

I think I'm "Rockwellian" after having met and talked to the man himself. :-) Or perhaps a Shafferian, but I have yet to meet Butler.

Stef is really big on Objective Law, which is fine, but limited our ability to play with ideas a little bit. I go the other way and take the Subjective Theory of Value to its logical conclusion. It sort of wraps around somewhere and gets to the same conclusion.

I am curious to hear more of Stef's psychological basis for a lot of his reasoning. I think that is a fascinating area that Libertarians have not explored much yet, and he seems to have a very good grip on it already. He's had me thinking about the consequences of hitting children much more than I ever did in the past, including how it shaped my younger years relative to my siblings (like my sister who could always talk my dad out of punishing any of her "bad" behavior).

Relating to this thread, Stef's "it doesn't matter" argument is extraordinarily powerful. Used it on the radio last week to severely undermine one of our statist Assembly member's arguments for regulation.

Re: Script's post (which made me laugh):
Step 1: Move to a common property, call it a "compound."
Step 2: Make it clear that you are stockpiling weapons.
Step 3: Be slaughtered by feds.

It is amazing and tragically funny that people continue to follow this pattern! One of my favorite parts of the Free State Project is that no one there is stupid enough to have done this yet!
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