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Author Topic: Liberty On Tour promoting market-based protection agencies  (Read 6942 times)
Seth King
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« on: September 07, 2010, 04:35:31 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZSvpkPybpc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZSvpkPybpc</a>
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When are you moving to New Hampshire?
JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 05:11:31 PM »

I guess there really are anarchists out there. Now I just want to meet some IN PERSON. I wish we had some sort of coordinating technique so that I could just spot them and talk.

These people should be applauded for being open about this.
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Seth King
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 05:57:17 PM »

When are you moving to New Hampshire?
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 11:04:58 PM »

Funny you should ask. I've gone into their forum before. I just got really frustrated and left. I found that the definition of a "liberty-leaning person" ranges from straight up GOP neocon to ancapper. The problem is that many of the people are less freedom loving than Ron Paul. Ancappers seemed too few and far between.

Yes, yes, it may be better than other places, but there was another point that got me upset.
I realized that if we did a free country project, then the 8,000 people who had signed up could actually take over a county. Literally. If the project ever gets  to 20K, it still won't matter that much in the millions of people in New Hampshire. Just imagine if the goal was only 10K, and we took a county that currently has 1,000 people and then SECEDED!. The futility of 20K in a sea of 3.5 million (I don't remember the real number and don't feel like looking it up), when there is a way better alternative frustrated me.

And the name of the project is an oxymoron.

I suppose eventually I could move there, but it's a bit early for someone like me to be making decisions like that.
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Seth King
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 12:26:33 AM »

I understand your frustrations. For me, it's not about the Free State Project so to speak. For me it's about being around as many anarcho-capitalists/agorists/voluntaryists as possible and the reason is simple: because we can create an underground economy much easier in close proximity than far apart.

It is clear to me that any sort of secession on the city, county or state level would likely be futile. We are outnumbered. Just as any sort of get out the vote campaign is futile. We are outnumbered. But one thing that gives me optimism about anarcho-capitalism, is that it does not require any sort of majority to get the job done. Are more statists from Mass. moving into New Hampshire than anarcho-capitalists from everywhere else? Probably. And it would be a problem if we were concerned about the vote. But we're not. We're concerned about creating alternative institutions.

Even if the AnCappers outnumbered everyone else in New Hampshire there would still be no formal secession from the State House. It would look a lot more like hundreds of thousands of individuals nullifying the laws through disobedience.

So, in my case, I want to find people I can trade with that are willing to A. paying and sell with silver, B. not pay taxes, C. not ask for permission and so on. Where I currently live I would have a hell of a time paying for something in silver or demanding payment with such. People don't understand why and I would have to explain EVERYTHING to them. But in the geographical location known as New Hampshire it wouldn't be difficult at all.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 09:28:09 AM »

I like the "geographical location known as" that you seem to use whenever referring to a state. Definitely a good conversation starter with the statists.

Yeah, you're from that area often called California right? Given the ferocious tyranny of your government, I'd like to ask: is that place just teeming with rabid statists (as opposed to the non-thinking ones), or did the government just spin so far out of control that everyone's frustrated?

Are you actually considering making the move? I've really thought about it, but often wonder whether I'd be better off in rural Wyoming or someplace like that, which is already lax on the whole government thing as far as I can tell.

But maybe it'd be better to take the fight right to the statists. Nullify legal tender laws. That'd be cool.
I'll see what New Hampshire looks like in 6 years and decide then...
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 11:16:38 AM »

I agree we need to work towards proximal geographical concentration as a means, but not as the end of itself.  I think the Free State Project will not achieve its goal of having a free and independent land carved out of an area ruled currently by statists.  Even with a super majority of people, the imperial powers in washington simply will not allow such a thing. I recognize that we can't leave the State by force of arms or force of law (the latter being what the Free State Project seems to be striving for).

Rather, the State must leave the people, individuallly, one at a time.  It will leave when it becomes too weak in the minds of the masses.  Its like how the Soviet Union collapsed.  Nobody really voted to end it, or fought a war to end it. The USSR collapsed as a legitimate idea first, and then as a political unit second.  Its people lost the will to fight for it because they lost their faith in it.  They lost faith because they saw it failed to deliver on everything it promised them.

I'm starting a blog on this strategy and if the articles suit Seth, maybe a few will appear on this site.
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Seth King
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 02:19:31 PM »

California is teeming with both rabid statists and a ton of non-thinking ones. There is virtually no libertarian constituency here. Californians disgust me.

Wyoming is tough to beat. If you were in a worse state there might be more incentive to move. If you're like me less people = more freedom. And you can't get less people than Wyoming.

I'll be moving to New Hampshire early next year.

Helio: You pretty much wrapped it up right there. The only difference I would say is that the Russians didn't really replace state institutions. If we are to succeed we're going to need to replace courts, police, insurance, banks, etc. with libertarian ones. I think the best thing a person could do for our movement would be to start a business that directly competes with the state. I am currently working on a free-market court right now. I am hoping to get it operational next year some time. It's going to be extremely effective in replacing the state. I can't wait.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 02:52:53 PM »

Quote
Even with a super majority of people, the imperial powers in washington simply will not allow such a thing.
I'm not sold on this quite yet. The imperial government may be unlimited in the sense that there is no constitution anymore. But there are still limits on what they can get away with. I don't know if they could get away with killing a bunch (thousands) of free countiers that bought up the land in a county, abolished the government, and set up voluntary institutions. People would feel very uneasy about having the Feds come and annihilate us. Not to mention, the Feds might not even consider it worth their time to shut us down if we're in the middle of nowhere building our own communities.

I don't KNOW anything about what would happen. I'm just not convinced the mission is impossible.
As far as NH in particular, no, it's too close to Washington, it's too populated for successful secession. But it still could be nice to set up a culture of freedom lovers in close proximity.
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helio
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 04:12:41 PM »

@Seth
Quote
I am currently working on a free-market court right now.

That is exactly the kind of thing we need to do.  We have to show the state can't deliver the goods it promises.  I dare say with some assertion that we won't get the majorities we need without demonstrating that the state is simply inept.  I think most people realize this in their hearts, but the emotional bonds imprinted upon them by public schooling and popular culture is very strong.  The only thing that can break it is for them to realize all political parties are failures, that all politicians are corupt, that everyone is using the state to rob their neighbor.  That is the way we must go for victory.

I would move to New Hampshire just to be nearer more people like myself.  I'll start looking into it.

I don't know what you have planned, but I'm all for it and would like to know more. Maybe I can help in some small way.
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 04:25:39 PM »

@JustSayNoToStatism

I personally think seccession could work in the south and midwest as I tend to believe that if Texas goes, so goes the rest of the old south and parts of the midwest, minus my state of Florida(although NW florida would probably leave).  NH is surrounded by the worst offending states in the union however and I think it simply cannot occur politically. 

I don't think the feds would send troops outright, but rather it would be a massive propaganda campaign to paint them as racists, radicals, terrorists and who knows what else.  The State as an organization is very crafty and very practiced at getting rid of competion. I dare not try and predict what those pscychopaths in washington would do.

But really, I don't think political seccession is neccessary. 
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 05:40:17 PM »

@ helio

I'm glad someone agrees that the feds would not send troops. I do agree that they would try to make life a living hell. And I agree that it's not necessary to secede. However, as a long run project it would have ENORMOUS value.

The methods that the state could use to undermine our efforts would be, revoking citizenship, preventing us from travelling on US soil, set up a trade embargo, etc. But this is exactly what we want!!!!!! This would be them admitting that we succeeded. We would have set the precedent that personal secession done en masse can happen. And we'd prove (with some difficulty due to the propaganda) that our society works. They'd try to sabotage it, but in the long run we wouldn't lose.

I bet many anarchists don't like this idea, because it's "political" initially. Many of you find any political activity to be abhorrent. However, if there were local politicians in my area whose platform was, I'll fire the people below me, permanently eliminate their "jobs," along with my own and then resign in the first week, I WOULD vote. I try to avoid being too dogmatic, but instead make decisions on the margins. In fact, I'm going to open a new topic for this discussion of voting.
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helio
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 06:33:55 PM »

@JustSayNoToStatism

I agree that the FSP will be of enormous value.  I see it as a method dependent upon confrontation and my personal philosophy is one of attraction, not confrontation.  The Free State Project is one of many paths and I support those who walk that path, even though I do not believe it can achieve the end it seeks.  Thats just my belief and I am willing to change my mind.

I'm tired of Florida anyway and may have to look into moving there, even if for but a short while, provided I could put food in my belly and meet my obligations.  I have only 1 anarchist friend here but he recently took another job so I haven't seen him in awhile. 
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 10:37:25 PM »

I should have been more specific in my last post on this topic. I thought that IF someone did a free county project and ACTUALLY SECEDED, and got away with it, it would be of enormous importance. I'm not completely thrilled about the FSP, but I think it's decent. People doing something, in fact, more than me, so I shouldn't be quite so hostile.
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helio
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 11:21:36 PM »

I've thought about a county level focus as well.  I believe it could have tremendous success.  I would however have to say that I should define what I mean by secession; To formally abolish political bonds with a greater political entity.

I don't see that it needs to be formal. 

Imagine: we put 10,000 agoristas in a county that only had a few thousand before.  We don't vote, or influence local elections. Instead, we establish healthy, respectful relationships with the locals who were there before us and adopt a laissez faire approach to economic integration. If we didn't use their fire department, police, schools or health facilities, we could argue that we shouldn't pay taxes.  We probably couldn't get away with not paying taxes outright, but If worked hard to engender trust and rapport with the locals, they might vote favorably for us.  The local law enforcement might even help to sheild us from greater state and federal authorities. 

Its a thought I've been working on.  We can only win by getting other people to accept us as benign, peaceful, helpful, and trustworthy.
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