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Author Topic: The end of crapitalism  (Read 13101 times)
FreeBornAngel
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« on: March 17, 2015, 07:37:25 PM »

Imagine that the accounting department of a(ll) corporation(s) went on vacation for one month but the folks that produce the products continue to fill the shelves.

Will the shelves be full?

Now imagine that the workers that produce the goods and stock the shelves had a free pass to order whatever was available from the work of all the other workers for free to be delivered to their door.

Will the workers work?

If we eliminate money from the equation and control our desires to have 42 pairs of shoes and big screen tvs in our dog houses would not this scheme serve to motivate the workers to continue working in the absence of overlords telling us that overlording is terribly hard work and gets the most dollars?

Now imagine that the vacation was permanent.

We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.

Free your mind,....

The revolution is as simple as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

When enough workers learn that fact we can ignore the bosses and owners.












« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 08:04:43 PM by FreeBornAngel » Logged

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danotto94
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 05:29:28 PM »

Crapitalism haha. Do anarcho-capitalists not see that they exploit workers and if class-consciousness occurs there may be a socialist revolution?
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FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 02:19:40 PM »

Nah, they are too blinded by greed.

They worship their bankster masters and have no clue that they are in the chapel.

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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 10:09:31 PM »

Will the shelves be full?

No, the shelves will not be full.  Once the goods are free for anyone to take they will be cleaned out by all the workers and non-workers until there is nothing left.  The shelves will be completely empty by day 2 of this Utopian fantasy world.

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Will the workers work?

No, they will immediately quit their jobs or go to their jobs to loot whatever they can carry off just like they looted the stores. Once workers realize that there are no goods left and that non-workers can take just as many goods as workers, they will no long be stupid enough to work.  Once the initial stage of pillage, riots and death is finished, society will degenerate to a level of subsistence living. The survivors of this "revolutionary holocaust" that Marx spoke of will be lucky if they can just barely get enough to eat each day, that is, if it isn't stolen from them by whoever has the most weapons or the biggest gang. At some point society will resemble more of a primitive stone-age tribal society. Then perhaps, a particularly enlightened tribe, community or group might have enough of this crap and start to organize themselves around clear principles of private-property.  The standard of living in this community would start to rise above their primitive neighbors as they engage in trade, production and technological development. Hopefully these primitive neighbors would also adopt the revolutionary ideas of private property and commerce and realize how foolish and childish it would be to have a society where everyone can just take whatever they want whenever they want to.  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 02:50:47 AM by anarchoguitarist » Logged
FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 03:58:39 PM »

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The shelves will be completely empty by day 2 of this Utopian fantasy world.
OK, AG, now the shelves have been looted and the world is in disarray, what do we do next?

I guess we get back to work building the crapitalist utopia that our brief excursion out of led us into this disarray.

Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.  This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.
Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:33:59 PM by FreeBornAngel » Logged

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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 04:55:59 AM »

OK, AG, now the shelves have been looted and the world is in disarray, what do we do next?

I guess we get back to work building the crapitalist utopia that our brief excursion out of led us into this disarray.

No, I'm not for re-building our current crapitalist system at all.  I'm for rebuilding the free-market.

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Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

If society went to a system where people did not have to pay to take goods from stores, then all that "doom and gloom" would absolutely take place. Its not even debatable. It happened already when the Bolsheviks abolished money after the revolution in Russia.

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Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.

No, the guy making widgets only cares that he receives a pay check. No worker or business owner stands around at work thinking "I just hope these goods I'm making end up stocked on store shelves somewhere." I mean come on man, do you really think this? This childish understanding of labor makes me think that you have never even had a job nor worked a single day of your life. The only reason they are at work is because they get paid. The moment workers are no longer compensated for their work and goods are "free," no worker will be stupid enough to work for nothing anymore. Unless of course you put a gun to his head and force him to work. That's what they ended up doing in the Soviet Union to get people to work, they had to force them.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of lofty ideals you have about people working for free and for the common good or whatever, no worker is stupid enough to work for nothing. Wake up bro, or grow up, whatever it is you need to do.

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This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.

You are correct that we don't have to have dollars and that there are alternatives to crapitalism. The only real alternative to crapitalism that will bring about freedom and prosperity is the unhampered free market, unhampered by gov coercion and violence.  In the free market dollars would disappear and people would resort to bartering.  Workers at first may work and barter their labor for any number of things: "grain, eggs, salt, silver, gold, bitcoin etc..."  However after a while they will find that its much easier to trade silver, gold and bitcoin instead of grain, eggs and salt.  At this point silver, gold and bitcoin would become the "money" of society. "Money" is just a tool to make trade easier.  And I believe that there may be multiple forms of money in a free market.  People would choose which form they like, or perhaps use all of the forms. Personally I would probably use silver for my daily expenses, I would keep my savings in gold and I would use bitcoin for online transactions.

Don't worry, I'm not enslaved by the banker's matrix. Their control over the market and their scheme to expropriate us exists because of gov controlled money, gov regulation and gov bailouts. Once the gov is gone, the corrupt banking institutions will go bankrupt and banking will be just like any other business.

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Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html

I agree that Kropotkin was a great man, and an interesting anarchist philosopher. I've already read the Conquest of Bread as I've told you before. Unfortunately some of his economic theories were flawed. The first step for all Anarchists, from Rothbard to followers of Kropotkin, is to abolish the state. At that point you can join some sort of co-operative where people work to stock the shelves of a community store.  Personally, I would rather work for silver or bitcoin that I can exchange for the goods I want.  In a free market, anyone is free to do what they like, as long as they don't coerce others.  You may find a decent Co-op if it has the right kind of people in it or you could even start your own. I wish you luck, just don't try to force me join your system or try to take my stuff that I worked for.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 05:00:45 AM by anarchoguitarist » Logged
FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:39 PM »

No, I'm not for re-building our current crapitalist system at all.  I'm for rebuilding the free-market.

Ok, then are you in favor of throwing children into the street because their parents drank the rent money?

Quote from: FBA
Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

Quote from: GA
If society went to a system where people did not have to pay to take goods from stores, then all that "doom and gloom" would absolutely take place. Its not even debatable. It happened already when the Bolsheviks abolished money after the revolution in Russia.

I'll have to read more about the history you reference, but the facts are that it is possible to transition from here to there. 
If the people riot once the food runs out they are going to starve or work at repairs. 
If properly prepared by announcements on the flashy light box, and classes to the kids on how this is going to work, the transition can be made without the end of the world.  It is only a matter of controlling the mass media and the schools long enough to show the people that continuing to produce the goods will lead to a world free from crapitalist domination.

Quote from: FBA
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.

Quote from: AG
No, the guy making widgets only cares that he receives a pay check. No worker or business owner stands around at work thinking "I just hope these goods I'm making end up stocked on store shelves somewhere." I mean come on man, do you really think this?

Because his mindset is crapitalism, a different indoctrination and he does as I propose.

Quote from: AG
This childish understanding of labor makes me think that you have never even had a job nor worked a single day of your life.
Well, then you would be wrong, I have worked since I was 14 and currently am 49.
I do it because the slaves around me are blind to their slavery and have not been presented with alternatives, in fact, they have been inoculated against them by their schools.
I don't say, 'I bought this widget for $1 and now I can sell it to this sucker for $10, screw that lady, she has it'.
My 'childish' understanding comes from freeing my mind from the evils of crapitalism, I no longer think in dog eat dog terms, I don't say to people 'either submit to my rules or starve', I say 'how can I help you', instead.
Seriously, what is your reaction to panhandlers?
Get a job, right?
Submit to the slavery, bum,...
If you'll do this $60 worth of work I will give you $20 of the value you created,...??
If you plant this field with potatoes valued at $1000 at harvest I will pay you $100 for the 3 days it will take you?
If you harvest this wheat that could feed you all year, I will feed you for the time it takes to get the work done.
Seriously, you need to look closer at the 'deal' you offer.
At the value your work creates.
If I create 100% of the value and you take 40% of the money what have you contributed for your gain?
How is that not stealing the value I created?

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The only reason they are at work is because they get paid. The moment workers are no longer compensated for their work and goods are "free," no worker will be stupid enough to work for nothing anymore.
Then where will the goods come from?  Their desire for goods is not going away, everybody wants toilet paper but they don't want to make their own. 
Will they just lay indolent until starvation takes them to heaven?
I don't think so, they submit to the slavery today because they want to eat, they will join in the new paradigm that rewards them far better, the full value of their labor rather than the crumbs left by the greedy.

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Unless of course you put a gun to his head and force him to work. That's what they ended up doing in the Soviet Union to get people to work, they had to force them.
Admittedly I don't have that much knowledge of the time, but I do have this,...There is no communism in Russia, by Emma Goldman.

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Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of lofty ideals you have about people working for free and for the common good or whatever, no worker is stupid enough to work for nothing. Wake up bro, or grow up, whatever it is you need to do.
Perhaps it is you that needs this advice, as you are the one supporting the system favored by dictators the world over.
The workers will not be working for nothing, they will be working to ensure that they are not parasites on other workers while enjoying the goods provided by others doing the same.
We don't have to have the paradigm you are perpetuating, you are no different than the banksters, you just want to be at the tip of the (smaller) pyramid that you control while not being under theirs'.

Will you let me starve in the streets because I recognize the slavery inherent in 'Get a job, bum'?

Quote from: FBA
This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.

Quote from: GA
You are correct that we don't have to have dollars and that there are alternatives to crapitalism. The only real alternative to crapitalism that will bring about freedom and prosperity is the unhampered free market, unhampered by gov coercion and violence.
What is the difference between markets dominated by world bankers' dollars and one dominated by local bankers in the form of trade goods?
How is getting paid 40 potatoes while harvesting 1000 any different than what happens in a dollar economy?
You are just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

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  In the free market dollars would disappear and people would resort to bartering.  Workers at first may work and barter their labor for any number of things: "grain, eggs, salt, silver, gold, bitcoin etc..."  However after a while they will find that its much easier to trade silver, gold and bitcoin instead of grain, eggs and salt.  At this point silver, gold and bitcoin would become the "money" of society. "Money" is just a tool to make trade easier.  And I believe that there may be multiple forms of money in a free market.  People would choose which form they like, or perhaps use all of the forms. Personally I would probably use silver for my daily expenses, I would keep my savings in gold and I would use bitcoin for online transactions.
Exactly, the option you offer is no different than the current offer.
You just want to be on top and answer to no one, exactly like the banksters today, they just have a head start on you.

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Don't worry, I'm not enslaved by the banker's matrix.
I think I just showed that you are.
Your system is their system with you in charge.
New boss same as the old boss.

Seriously, AG, the only way to end this tyranny is to devise a way to get out of markets entirely.
Until we share freely with our fellow human beings we are just changing out the bosses.
Today they are international bankers, under your proposal they would be whatever local could afford to pay today for more tomorrow. 
The poor would still be at the mercy of those that exploit their poverty to enrich themselves.

 
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Their control over the market and their scheme to expropriate
us exists because of gov controlled money, gov regulation and gov bailouts. Once the gov is gone, the corrupt banking institutions will go bankrupt and banking will be just like any other business.
And the titanic will once again be destined to hit the iceberg.

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Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html

Quote
I agree that Kropotkin was a great man, and an interesting anarchist philosopher. I've already read the Conquest of Bread as I've told you before. Unfortunately some of his economic theories were flawed.
It's true, if he had the answers his offer would have taken the market of ideas by storm, and we would live in his paradise.

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The first step for all Anarchists, from Rothbard to followers of Kropotkin, is to abolish the state.
Right, the end of rule by force should be the current primary goal, I agree.

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At that point you can join some sort of co-operative where people work to stock the shelves of a community store
Hmm, better to think globally so that wars can end.

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Personally, I would rather work for silver or bitcoin that I can exchange for the goods I want.
Then free your mind, small scale crapitalism is crapitalism none the less.
Just because the world bankster becomes the local bankster becomes the local landowner doesn't end the exploitive nature of crapitalism.

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In a free market, anyone is free to do what they like, as long as they don't coerce others.
If I am starving and you offer me $40 for $100 worth of work and the only choice I have is to starve or do your work have I been coerced?

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  You may find a decent Co-op if it has the right kind of people in it or you could even start your own.
Nah, my proposal is global in nature anything less and it fails.
Perhaps it could be began on a smaller scale, but unless the idea sells to everybody it is not worthy.

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I wish you luck, just don't try to force me join your system or try to take my stuff that I worked for.
Nope, if I can't convince you of the preferability of my idea it is not worthy of adoption.
Even if my idea was accepted there will be no large scale expropriation of goods, the banksters will keep their castles, if they can keep their lives.

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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2015, 03:36:45 AM »

Quote
Ok, then are you in favor of throwing children into the street because their parents drank the rent money?

Seriously, what is your reaction to panhandlers?
Get a job, right?
Submit to the slavery, bum,...

Will you let me starve in the streets because I recognize the slavery inherent in 'Get a job, bum'?

I would have to know the specifics of each particular case as to whether I would be in favor of evicting a family or giving beggars money or not. Just because you throw some sentence out there to make people feel sorry for “the children” or whatever doesn’t repudiate the free market. It doesn’t change the fact that the free market is the greatest tool to bring society to general prosperity.

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I'll have to read more about the history you reference, but the facts are that it is possible to transition from here to there.  
If the people riot once the food runs out they are going to starve or work at repairs.  
If properly prepared by announcements on the flashy light box, and classes to the kids on how this is going to work, the transition can be made without the end of the world.  It is only a matter of controlling the mass media and the schools long enough to show the people that continuing to produce the goods will lead to a world free from crapitalist domination.

It is not a fact that you can transition to your system.  The fact that you don’t want to adopt it on a small scale proves it won’t work on a large scale.  If your system was better then free coops would out-perform private institutions and more people would choose them.  But because of the relative lack of goods and freedom in your system people would leave your system in order to have goods again and in order to own their own property.

I’m really glad you wrote the above statement about “controlling the mass media.”  This shows the true authoritarian nature of your system if it were ever adopted.  This is why you refuse to allow any alternatives to your system to exist.  You are a monopolist, there can be only one way, your way. In my world your system and free market anarchism could exist side by side.  In your system we would give up crapitalist domination in order to be dominated by you.  I don’t need you to control my media or to indoctrinate my kids thank you.

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Because his mindset is crapitalism, a different indoctrination and he does as I propose.

Typical marxist nonsense, we need to build a new socialist man etc...  We would all follow your system if you could just indoctrinate us to believe that people will work hard without any personal remuneration.

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Well, then you would be wrong, I have worked since I was 14 and currently am 49.
I do it because the slaves around me are blind to their slavery and have not been presented with alternatives, in fact, they have been inoculated against them by their schools.
I don't say, 'I bought this widget for $1 and now I can sell it to this sucker for $10, screw that lady, she has it'.
My 'childish' understanding comes from freeing my mind from the evils of crapitalism,

I no longer think in dog eat dog terms, I don't say to people 'either submit to my rules or starve', I say 'how can I help you', instead.

I don’t think in “dog eat dog” terms either and I never did. “How can I help you” is the attitude one must have to survive in the free market. This is exactly the reason why people in the market place say “How can I help you.” Nobody would say that in your system. I don’t want people to submit to my rules either, except for something like “don’t attack or steal from me.” Also I don’t demand that the entire world go to my system.  If you want to try some ridiculous social experiment, than go ahead. Just use volunteers and your own property.  Don’t force me to join or to pay for it.

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If you'll do this $60 worth of work I will give you $20 of the value you created,...??
If you plant this field with potatoes valued at $1000 at harvest I will pay you $100 for the 3 days it will take you?
If you harvest this wheat that could feed you all year, I will feed you for the time it takes to get the work done.
Seriously, you need to look closer at the 'deal' you offer.
At the value your work creates.
If I create 100% of the value and you take 40% of the money what have you contributed for your gain?
How is that not stealing the value I created?

The type of work you describe here is not stealing at all.  You are describing a situation where a laborer sells his time to create goods for his employer.  At no time does the employer take the property of the employee, so there is no theft in any of your examples. Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted?  

1) the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place, or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

2) The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

3) When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk. If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money. But the employee still gets paid his wages. Because of this risk the employer deserves a portion of the produce.

The labor theory of value and the marxist idea of "surplus value" are behind your misunderstanding here.  These theories were proven wrong over a hundred years ago. Again, you have been working so many years and have been a part of this website for so long and haven’t figured this out yet. I almost can’t believe it. It seems that you don’t even want to pretend to understand economics. You would rather substitute it with utopian and childish fantasies.

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Then where will the goods come from?  Their desire for goods is not going away, everybody wants toilet paper but they don't want to make their own.  
Will they just lay indolent until starvation takes them to heaven?
I don't think so, they submit to the slavery today because they want to eat, they will join in the new paradigm that rewards them far better, the full value of their labor rather than the crumbs left by the greedy.

I’ve already answered this. People will loot the stores until there is nothing left then they will degenerate to a level of SUBSISTENCE living. This means that people will produce only what they need to survive. They certainly won’t switch to your paradigm where they enjoy “the full value of their labor.” There will be no labor in your paradigm, so there would be no value to consume, that’s my point.

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Admittedly I don't have that much knowledge of the time, but I do have this,...There is no communism in Russia, by Emma Goldman.

Also check out Emma Goldman’s work about her Disillusionment in Russia. These are all great works. But it doesn’t change any of my points. Many people would rather live in a free society where they can own property. The only way the Bolsheviks could get people to behave otherwise was to put a gun to their head. Not even your indoctrination schools or re-education camps can change that.

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Perhaps it is you that needs this advice, as you are the one supporting the system favored by dictators the world over.

Actually no, Gov is the system favored by dictators the world over.  That’s why dictators are the heads of governments. In your system gov would still exist, how else will you control the media? Unlike you, I don’t want to “control” anyone, even the media.

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The workers will not be working for nothing, they will be working to ensure that they are not parasites on other workers while enjoying the goods provided by others doing the same.
We don't have to have the paradigm you are perpetuating, you are no different than the banksters, you just want to be at the tip of the (smaller) pyramid that you control while not being under theirs'.

If you are so confident that people will work simply "to ensure that they are not parasites" then give your system a try. I don’t want to be at the tip of a pyramid. I’m not the one calling for “control” and “indoctrination.”  Perhaps it is yourself that you are referring to here.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 03:48:49 AM by anarchoguitarist » Logged
FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2015, 02:04:59 PM »

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It doesn’t change the fact that the free market is the greatest tool to bring society to general prosperity.
Are you sure about that, AG?  How many alternative economic systems have you looked at?

I think free access to all the work on the planet would do a better job then accepting the crumbs leftover by the boss.

Do you have any hope of owning a Maserati?
Under my proposal production ramps up until demand is met and everybody that wants one, or any other consumer good, gets one.

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It is not a fact that you can transition to your system.
It is as much a fact as any religion, you can't prove that we can't and I can't prove that we can.
However logically, the proposal is sound and proper education meets the transitional needs.

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The fact that you don’t want to adopt it on a small scale proves it won’t work on a large scale.
It can't be done on a small scale, just the toilet paper factory overwhelms any small number of people and doesn't get to the Maserati factory.
Either the proposal is accepted on a broad basis or it doesn't float.

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If your system was better then free coops would out-perform private institutions and more people would choose them
That is a strawman, how do private co-ops obtain goods from a crapitalist absent some medium of exchange accepted/controlled by the crapitalist?

This is exactly why half measures won't bring about the transistion, the mind control of the crapitalists prevents it.
If I entered into a co-op it would have to produce all consumer goods within it's self or fail due to having to trade with the outside crapitalist world.

That being said if enough people accept what I propose the crapialists will be out of luck.

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because of the relative lack of goods and freedom in your system
Let's review the proposal,.....the structure that is walmart becomes the central distribution network, we can include target and Costco, the workers continue to supply the distribution system as if everything were normal, except that instead of paying at the register they just take what they need to keep supplying the distribution chain.

As long as the workers supplying the system continue to do so the shelves are full.

What has happened is the workers have taken over from the owners.
Now all profits accrue to the workers and not the bosses.
At some point demand is met and work lessens.

Instead of working for less than the value their labor creates they now work only to satisfy themselves that they are not a drain on the whole.

If I get my Maserati and leave it in working order when I die how much work have I consumed?  Very little, as the work is still there in the form of a working car.

Now, if I eat, I need to contribute in a measure that equals the labor involved in supplying that food.
I don't have to grow my own food, I can work in the toilet paper factory.

I don't claim to have a lock on what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger, but better mathematicians than me can do the math in minutes and I can access their determination on the web.

I'm at the library, I have to log off, I will continue from here upon my return.

----------------------------------------------------------------

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I’m really glad you wrote the above statement about “controlling the mass media.”  This shows the true authoritarian nature of your system if it were ever adopted.
Not really, once the transition is made control will be in the hands of the workers that make the transmitter work.
Yes, in the short term the mass media will be a necessary tool, but nobody will be sending troops to take control of the towers.  The workers themselves will rise against their corporate masters, or they will remain slaves to them.

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This is why you refuse to allow any alternatives to your system to exist.
I don't have to 'allow' alternatives to exist, they will naturally cease because they do a lesser job of equitably splitting up the labor needed to supply the world with consumer goods.

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You are a monopolist, there can be only one way, your way.
I don't know where you get that, I have repeatedly stated that the proposal is voluntarily accepted as a better method of dividing the labor amongst us or it doesn't happen.

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In my world your system and free market anarchism could exist side by side.
Why would a free worker submit to having a portion of his labor accrue to your wealth?
If my labor creates $100 and you pay me something less than that why would I agree to accept that when I can go next door and only have to labor in the amount of hours that assures that 100% of what I have consumed is replaced?

Under my proposal 100% of my labor meets my consumption needs whereas under your system I get a smaller percentage credited to me while a portion of what I make accrues to you.

How do you figure J. Paul Getty got all that money?
He certainly didn't do without keeping some of the value that his workers created for himself and he didn't get it by dividing the values created equally.
He exploited the poor to his own advantage.

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In your system we would give up crapitalist domination in order to be dominated by you.
LOL, you are trapped in the paradigm,....Have I not repeated enough that the system is voluntary?
Even if you chose not to work a minute in your life you are still going to get fed, albeit with the reputation, and consequences, of being a bum, but you would be able to get your supper without submitting to work.

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I don’t need you to control my media or to indoctrinate my kids thank you.
Jeez, you are trapped in the paradigm, who is controlling your mass media and indoctrinating your kids today?
I take it that you are happy with how they have indoctrinated the kids?
Wouldn't it be better to listen for 10 minutes to live in a world absent coercive control?

Or have the Monarchs done such a good job on you that even though you claim to be an anarchist you still want to be a tool in the economic system that was designed by the very people you claim to reject?

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Typical marxist nonsense,
I haven't spent much time reading Marx, mostly just excepts, but if what was done in his name is any indication, Marxist nonsense is a mischaracterization of the proposal.
Let this on the spot report speak for it's self,.....There is no Communism in Russia.

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We would all follow your system if you could just indoctrinate us to believe that people will work hard without any personal remuneration.
Again, you misstate the proposal, under my proposal not only would you be given access to goods that are denied to you under crapitalism, but you could have them now and with only the debt of making your consumption neutral.
If it is determined that hours of labor is the standard then the hours to make a Maserati is the hours you will need to contribute to have one. 
Any question that you will never have a Maserati under crapitalism?
My system delivers you one just as quick as production can meet demand, first come first served.
If you leave the car in working order the hours needed to make your consumption neutral will be less than if you crash it.

I'm sure that the math nerds can make webpages to calculate what you need to contribute to make your consumption neutral on the labor of others.

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I don’t think in “dog eat dog” terms either and I never did.
Then why do you support a dog eat dog system?
Your 'free' markets still starve me unless I meet your demands.
You will not give to me from your pile unless I create value in excess of your compensation.
You will not sell me your widget unless you get more than you paid for it, thereby eating my dog because I don't have access to your widget for less.

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This is exactly the reason why people in the market place say “How can I help you.” Nobody would say that in your system.
Sure they say it, but do they live it?
How many panhandlers have you given a dollar?
How many have you cast contempt upon and told get a job?

In the free market all money is still going to be debt money, and debt money makes us slaves to those that have the money.

Under my system panhandlers, human traffickers, drug pushers, and prostitutes all cease to exist.
They don't have to beg or traumatize the lives of others to eat.

Your free market still leaves me to starve unless I submit to wage slavery.

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I don’t want people to submit to my rules either,
Yes, you do.  How do you propose to keep your free market in place?  Either folks submit to exploitation by those that have money to trade for their labor or they starve.
Does you system come with a free lunch?
Mine does, although I would think that the life of leaching on the workers would not be a pleasant one.

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Also I don’t demand that the entire world go to my system.
Are you blind to your double speak??
How is demanding free markets not demanding the whole world submit to your system?
Really, AG??

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If you want to try some ridiculous social experiment, than go ahead.
So, the monarchs are winning,.....

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Don’t force me to join or to pay for it.
I won't have to force you, when you take off the crapitalist blinders you will see that my system compensates your work much better.
I may just have to wait until the herd, and your herd mentality, catches up.

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The type of work you describe here is not stealing at all.
OMG,....LOL,......seriously??
I have to choose between watching my kids starve or submit to you not paying me the full value of my work and you classify that as legitimate?

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At no time does the employer take the property of the employee, so there is no theft in any of your examples
Jesus H,.....the employer takes the MOST valuable property from the worker, his time.
The system you are supporting steals our lives and gives us discounted paper vouchers in return.

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Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted? 
Indeed, why should the worker settle for less than the entire value of his labor?

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the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place
If he did the work himself, ok, at least he contributed that much labor.

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or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did
And how much of that 1.2 mil came from the value that his workers created and how much came from charging grandma $2 for $1 worth of potatoes?
Did he exploit the worker or gouge the consumer for this money?

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He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
Ok, I can agree to that, his labor entitles him to one share of all the work done.
Will he divide the profits by the number of workers, or will he keep the millions while paying the hundreds?

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The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
That is circular logic, you can't point to crapitalism to justify more crapitalism.

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When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk.
And what risk is that, that the worker will wake up to his enslavement and be mad??

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If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money.
Now this is true, crapitalism does come with the risk of loss.
The bankster will make sure that the farmer doesn't get to uppity.

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The labor theory of value and the marxist idea of "surplus value" are behind your misunderstanding here.
Not really, I've stated that I have only read excepts of marx, this proposal comes much more from Kropotkin and Goldman than from marx.

The facts are that we can divide the labor needed to keep the consumer goods on the shelves by the number of folks between 20 and 45 and work less hours and enjoy a higher standard of living than if we let the crapitalists take without working.
The shareholders will never have enough profits to keep for themselves, ie, the shareholders will never have enough value created by our labor.
Today we work from 18 to 65 creating millions in profits while retiring to poverty because the crapitalist keeps the difference between our wages and the actual value created by our labor.

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you have been working so many years and have been a part of this website for so long and haven’t figured this out yet.
Why would I accept my enslavement by a system that you don't fully understand?
IF you did understand it you would be angry.

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It seems that you don’t even want to pretend to understand economics.
I think it is you that doesn't understand economics.
It is you that I think is blinded by effective PR.

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People will loot the stores until there is nothing left then they will degenerate to a level of SUBSISTENCE living.
You say that as if people would be satisfied subsisting, we have already proven that the people will work to improve their lot in life.
So, once the looting you propose is over they will begin to rebuild.

If the people are prepared to transition from here to here there will be no looting, the day after will look much like the last day under crapitalism but in 6 weeks the world will be transformed.

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This means that people will produce only what they need to survive. They certainly won’t switch to your paradigm where they enjoy “the full value of their labor.”
Look around, the people have already disproven you.
Absent the mindset that crapitalism has put into you with very sophisticated mind control techniques people will continue to make the goods because it will be in their best interest to do so.
If you want flashylight boxes you will have to continue to produce widgets so that those that produce TV's can still enjoy having widgets.

Honestly, you mind has been closed to utopia by people that want to keep you on the plantation.

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Many people would rather live in a free society where they can own property.
My proposal does that, no crime will be tolerated by the neighbors.

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The only way the Bolsheviks could get people to behave otherwise was to put a gun to their head.
Well, they did believed in rule by force.
Do I need to yet again restate that my proposal is voluntary and only a matter of opening the eyes of the slaves to their slavery?

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Not even your indoctrination schools or re-education camps can change that.
Well, your's have had a 100 year head start on that, but I don't think you can deny that Generation Y is on the path to throwing off the leaches already.

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Gov is the system favored by dictators the world over.
Name a dictator that didn't have bankster backers and a crapitalist economy,....

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In your system gov would still exist, how else will you control the media?
Nope, it won't.
Control of the media will be taken by the workers that make it tick, not some thugs in uniform directed by a central authority.  Really, stop trying to force your world view on my proposal, it is you that needs thugs to keep the slaves producing.

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Unlike you, I don’t want to “control” anyone, even the media.
As long as the agree to follow your 'free' market rules, at least,....

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If you are so confident that people will work simply "to ensure that they are not parasites" then give your system a try.
That is what I am doing.  I can't do it alone and I haven't convinced my tv buddy to let me into the control room long enough to broadcast the message.  He keeps whining about keeping his job so he can eat.

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I’m not the one calling for “control” and “indoctrination.”
Of course you aren't, your control and indoctrination is already in force.






« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 03:36:51 PM by FreeBornAngel » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 06:45:46 AM »

Let's review the proposal,.....the structure that is walmart becomes the central distribution network, we can include target and Costco, the workers continue to supply the distribution system as if everything were normal, except that instead of paying at the register they just take what they need to keep supplying the distribution chain.

As long as the workers supplying the system continue to do so the shelves are full.

What has happened is the workers have taken over from the owners.
Now all profits accrue to the workers and not the bosses.
At some point demand is met and work lessens.

Instead of working for less than the value their labor creates they now work only to satisfy themselves that they are not a drain on the whole.

If I get my Maserati and leave it in working order when I die how much work have I consumed?  Very little, as the work is still there in the form of a working car.

Now, if I eat, I need to contribute in a measure that equals the labor involved in supplying that food.
I don't have to grow my own food, I can work in the toilet paper factory.

I don't claim to have a lock on what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger, but better mathematicians than me can do the math in minutes and I can access their determination on the web.

It doesn't matter how many mathematicians you get to try to calculate the "measure that equals the labor involved in supplying that food."  Goods aren't valued by the amount of labor that is put into them. The "Labor theory of Value" was proven false over a century ago. Unfortunately Marx, and even some good thinkers like Kropotkin and Goldman, built their economic theories on the Labor Theory of Value. But its not true. Goods are valued subjectively by humans.

But even if they were valued according to labor, the amount of Labor in your society would instantly decrease. The workers would not continue to supply the shelves of Walmart so that looters can just take free stuff.  There are no more profits to accrue to the workers because you just got rid of money.  So everyone would stop working and take the free stuff until it was gone.

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LOL, you are trapped in the paradigm,....Have I not repeated enough that the system is voluntary?

You can repeat "voluntary" till you are blue in the face. But you also let the word "control" slip out too. Voluntary doesn't mean much when we have you controlling the media.

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Even if you chose not to work a minute in your life you are still going to get fed, albeit with the reputation, and consequences, of being a bum, but you would be able to get your supper without submitting to work.

So what happens to your society whenever everyone decides to not work a minute and still get free stuff?  No more stuff, just like I said.  That's what would happen to your society.  I wouldn't work so that everyone else can get free stuff.  I'd rather play video games all day and still get the free stuff.  This is what the majority of people would do.

Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted? Here are 3 good reasons, which you didn't seriously deal with, why someone would plant potatoes and not receive all of them: 

1) the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place, or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

2) The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

3) When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk. If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money. But the employee still gets paid his wages. Because of this risk the employer deserves a portion of the produce.

Deal with the Employer and Employee in these examples. Show me where there is exploitation. There are no bankers involved yet.  If you want to deal with banking I can show you the purpose of banking by introducing a banker in a future example. But you won't understand it unless you first grasp what going on between the employer and employee.

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Your 'free' markets still starve me unless I meet your demands.

If you don't have enough money to buy bread then you starve, the "free market" didn't starve you. You can't blame others if you starve unless they actually took something from you.  Maybe if the CEO of walmart breaks into your house and steals your last loaf of bread then you can blame him.  But if you have food and then run out, you can't blame others because you didn't make provision for the future. 

Also if someone chooses to give you a loaf of bread then the "free market" just prevented your starvation. Everytime someone gives away something this is also part of the free market. Charity and gift-giving are just as much a part of the free market as bartering or monetary exchanges.
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 08:38:17 AM »

If we sound like freeborn to random people we meet, I understand the resistance. 
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 12:25:23 PM »

Heroic effort by anarchoguitarist to respond to FreeBornAngel. 

Is it that hard to see that governments are parasites that co-opted the market, pretending to be protectors of markets when in fact they have been destroyers of markets?  The creation of corporations, for example, is an obvious example of co-opting the market.  And even more basic, in spite of what some people think, governments didn't create money--it was a spontaneous development of society, as people attempted to resolve the difficulties of the barter system.  It was only after money came into regular use, especially precious metals like gold and silver, that governments exerted their force to control money.  After all, control the money, and you control the economy, right?  Well, as should be obvious, controlling the economy is harder than that, although governments certainly do their best to skew the market in various ways. 

Another point is that the market is not merely a means for allocating scarce resources, although that's saying a lot, but is also a means for encouraging the productive development of goods and services from those resources.  It's not simply that here are a bunch goods that have been made, and now let's divide them among ourselves, but how do we decide which goods and how many of those goods should be made in the first place? 

So you make some chairs.  You only need a few for the house--so family, friends, and guests can sit while at your house.  Then Cousin Vinny comes over and says, "Nice chairs.  Will you make one for me?"  and you say, okay, but it'll take some time and effort and materials.  What will you do for me in return?  Bam! A market in chairs is created, and without any government or authority figure commanding or ordering it to make it so. 

My point is that when governments and their illegitimate authority are gone, people will still want to voluntarily engage in capitalistic, free market acts.  Real capitalism is not a creation of government, or an unnatural act forced upon humanity.  It is a natural and spontaneous act of society in order to produce and distribute the goods and services that society wants. 

To repeat what anarchoguitarist said, I, too, would like to see the end of "crony-capitalism", or crapitalism, as FreeBorn puts it.  People are not indoctrinated into the use of money and capitalist markets; they are merely indoctrinated into thinking that governments are the good guys protecting those things, and encouraged to fear the alleged chaos that would exist without governments keeping order. 

And while it would be nice to see governments disappear overnight, it's not likely to happen that way.  Even if  you're expecting some radical revolution to sweep in the "new anarchism", people still have to be educated and prepared for such a revolution, and the process of doing that will cause small changes to occur, resulting not in revolution, but the devolution of government as it withers away, resisted, ignored, and bypassed by people who no longer accept the legitimacy of government. 

Ending the legitimacy of government in people's minds seems to me to be the key to getting rid of government and ushering in an anarchist society.  We cannot possibly hope to openly fight governments unless we can match them in manpower, weapons, and technology. If actual revolution occurs, it will only be after governments have been greatly weakened in legitimacy and power, the final act in a long process that has already been occurring.  Then, and only then, will we have the end of crapitalism.

And now, let the critics attack!    Grin
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 08:27:53 PM »

Hello Mac,

Thank you for your comments. The sad thing is that people like Freeborn could be allies if they truly believed in a voluntary society.  I even said before to him that if he would like to form a community built upon his economic principles then I wish them luck.  I would rather be part of a community where I could own property and buy and sell my labor.  He doesn't have to be a part of my community.  He is free to pool his resources and labor with like-minded individuals to build his own type of community. As long as his community doesn't attack us or plunder our resources then the two communities could exist side by side.  Actually in a voluntary society there may be 100 different communities, each one trying their own type of economic system. Some would prosper, some would fail.  That's the beauty of freedom is that society doesn't have to fit any one model. Individuals are free to chose what kind of lifestyle they want to live as long as they don't force others. At least that's my understanding of freedom.  The problem with many leftists is that all of society has to fit their mold.  Its pretty sad that leftists can't even tolerate the existence of one different system or any people who have different ideas. It reveals the totalitarian and utopian tendencies of their ideology.  "The whole world must accept it for it to work."

I wouldn't care if 99% of the world decided to live in some sort of co-op or commune.  Just as long as I'm free to associate with the 1% of like-minded individuals whether it be 100 people or just 10. If only 10 people wanted to live in a free market society I'm not going to cry that everyone has to accept my ideas for them to work.  The free market will work whether there are only 2 participants or 2 billion participants. It doesn't matter how many are involved, the free market is economically efficient and the greatest example of mutual cooperation and mutual benefit in human society.
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 07:10:06 PM »

Goods aren't valued by the amount of labor that is put into them.
Goods aren't 'valued' in my system at all,.....only in the paradigm you accept,.....
Crapitalism is soooo different than what I propose that the terms you are trying to fence my proposal in with are not applicable.

What is more valuable, the Saturday that you spend earning enough money to buy that bauble or the Saturday you spend with your friends and family?
Which system on the table, mine and yours, do you suppose will deliver more family time while still making consumer goods available?

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The "Labor theory of Value" was proven false over a century ago.
I'm not trying to substitute one medium of exchange, dollars, for another, time.
I am trying to insure that I contribute enough to the collective that I can go to my grave knowing that I was not parasitical on the workers.
Crapitalism will never deliver that because the very system is to suck the life blood from those improvident enough to not use the system to their own advantage.
Highest commodity prices for the lowest wages, ya know?

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and even some good thinkers like Kropotkin and Goldman, built their economic theories on the Labor Theory of Value.
I agree that they didn't have all the answers, but I think that my proposal corrects their mistakes.
They didn't have walmart to co-opt, they couldn't take over the distribution system that is Costco to use to benefit those that put the goods on the shelves rather than the banksters that have mind controlled us with schools and flashylight boxes.
The fact is we have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
The shift is in the paradigm, using the nomenclature of crapitalism will not deliver us from enslavement.
Remaining in the box that is wage slavery crapitalism will leave us just that, slaves.
Tinker with it how you please the fact is until we don't make tit for tat trades and contribute because it is the right thing to do and not because we fancy some bauble in the trade then we will always be slaves to those that have more.

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So everyone would stop working and take the free stuff until it was gone.
Ok, lets grant that what you say did happen, what do we do now?

Do we sit around and cry in the beer we don't have because we don't have means to supply it, or do we set about creating a system that doesn't reward sloth?

My system floats because of the willingness of the people to do right, ie, to contribute to the collective whole because we love one another.

Imagine that,....not possible, you say?
Then you have had your mind warped by those that want to keep you on the plantation.
And you willingly accept it.

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Voluntary doesn't mean much when we have you controlling the media.
Control of the media in a non-coercive environment would be in the hands of those that create the content and make the transmitter transmit.
What I propose is that once the workers that do that now are exposed to the facts as I present them, they would send out the message of their own free will.
What I refer to as control of the media is the workers taking control to get the message out to the other workers that it's time to stop being slaves.
Perhaps in the transition coercive control could be chosen as the direct action of an autonomous group, but not as you envision of a central dictator.
If my proposal is not freely chosen it doesn't float, I only ask for the means to get the message out.
So far, my friend at the tv station refuses on the grounds that the sheeple wouldn't rise up and join us in throwing off the chains of their bosses, anyway, and that the thugs collectively known as law enforcement officers would just silence us for a number of years.

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So what happens to your society whenever everyone decides to not work a minute and still get free stuff?
I know generation y is making that a real possibility, but work is the curse of life, no work, no eat.  
That will not change under my management system.
The vast majority of rational thinkers can extrapolate the consequences of their actions and will act in accordance with their own best interests.
Perhaps there will be those that refuse, and they will be outcasts just as they are today, with the caveat that they won't be protected by thugs that are jealous of anyone using force except them.
Will you stand up and defend the bum?
If yes, then it is on you.  I am sure that each community will have their favored village idiot and dispense with the others.

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I'd rather play video games all day and still get the free stuff.
You say that, but would you really play video games suicidally?
Would you push your pleasure button until all the food was gone?
I don't think you would, nor do I think that the workers around you would put up with it for long.

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This is what the majority of people would do.
I think looking around says otherwise.  
Absent the mind control that keeps the slaves enslaved they would not sit idle until the food ran out, just count the survivalists if you need a demographic.

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1) the employer cleared the land,...
Or did he pay some wretch to do it for him?
Did he take the potatoes he didn't pay as wages to the harvesters to pay the planters?
Did he set it in motion from the potatoes his father exploited before him?
Perhaps he gained favor with a bankster and used debt to set it in motion.
If he put a large farm together on his own labor why would he hire more labor unless it was to exploit that labor for his own profit?  That is crapitalism, after all, isn't it?

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He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
Indeed he does, he deserves one share of the work.
But that is not what crapitalism does, it does not divide the fruit of the labor equally among the workers, in fact, it rewards the non-producer much better than the worker, that is how the 1% get to be the 1%.
My friend works at fedex, she gets $13 an hour and has been there 8 years, she gets all giddy when the managers give out free swag, but she doesn't connect the fact that her not being compensated fully is what made that swag available.
Now let's add in the $12.1 million NFL sponsorship, $1 million per nascar race, et al,.... $90 to $95 million in total.
All of which came directly from not paying her the full market value to put boxes into vans.
Her putting boxes into vans netted the bosses far more than it netted her.
Crap if you ask me.

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2) The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive.
He could have had it for free under my proposal because the plow maker recognizes the importance of the potato farmer having good tools.

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Because of this risk the employer deserves a portion of the produce.
And that risk is eliminated by what I propose.

Only if I stay locked into the nomenclature that defines crapitalism do your assertions apply.
If the workers do the work, we don't have to carry the parasites that the banksters and their families are today.
They would have to find productive work and diminish the total work needed by what they contribute instead of ever increasing the burden with their insatiable appetite for profits.

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Show me where there is exploitation.
I hope my fedex example serves here,...

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But you won't understand it unless you first grasp what going on between the employer and employee.
I understand far better than you my friend,....
It is you that are blinded by rhetoric, economics didn't exist as a 'science' until the anarchist started gaining a footing with the workers.

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If you don't have enough money to buy bread then you starve, the "free market" didn't starve you.
If it wasn't the 'free' market that refused me bread until I was exploited by someone with more money than me, then who did?

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Maybe if the CEO of walmart breaks into your house and steals your last loaf of bread then you can blame him
Why would he do that we he can gather willing slaves by convincing them that they are free?

None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.
 -Johann von Goethe

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Also if someone chooses to give you a loaf of bread then the "free market" just prevented your starvation. Everytime someone gives away something this is also part of the free market. Charity and gift-giving are just as much a part of the free market as bartering or monetary exchanges.
Well, at least there is that,....now if we could just get the blinders off the workers so that they realize that they can be free of parasites.

Slave-monkeys-get-revenge-on-cruel-owner.

This is the one I was looking for, the other one is just funny.

If we sound like freeborn to random people we meet, I understand the resistance. 
Just callin' em as I sees 'em,....

Heroic effort by anarchoguitarist to respond to FreeBornAngel. 

Is it that hard to see that governments are parasites that co-opted the market, pretending to be protectors of markets when in fact they have been destroyers of markets?
Read the Monkey Master fable above and ask this question again,.....

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...but is also a means for encouraging the productive development of goods and services from those resources
I suggest that the shame of being a parasite would equally motivate people, it does a good job today.

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how do we decide which goods and how many of those goods should be made in the first place?
I propose that a full shelf needs no further production of that good and an empty shelf requires more production.
Stocking levels will gel and production meet demand with no more ups and downs than today.
Probably less because scarcity drives up prices and the highest prices are the end goal of crapitalism.

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What will you do for me in return?
So, unless cousin vinny gives you something you would deny him?

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without any government or authority figure commanding or ordering it to make it so.
You become the authority figure in this analogy, absent your demand for something in return you refuse to give up your chair, thereby forcing vinny to contribute to your profits.
If vinny had been raised right by his momma he would have felt obligated to do something in return for your gift and not the other way around, by reversing this obligation as you do you have ended any 'free' market and established your refusal as the authority.
If your gift is bread then vinny can choose starvation or to meet your terms.

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It is a natural and spontaneous act of society in order to produce and distribute the goods and services that society wants.
I agree but instead of requiring tit for tat trades, and thereby creating authority, one merely contributes to the warehouse and the warehouse worries about distribution from areas of high stockage to areas of low stockage.
If you can't give your production away perhaps you should look at producing something else,....

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People are not indoctrinated into the use of money and capitalist markets;
Seriously?  How are we not bombarded from birth that we must give some tit if we want some tats?
TNSTAAFL, after all,....

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they are merely indoctrinated into thinking that governments are the good guys protecting those things
Merely?
The Most Dangerous Superstition,....Larken Rose.

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encouraged to fear the alleged chaos that would exist without governments keeping order.
Absolutely, not many people are suicidal, they will continue to produce goods under my management system, I guarantee.
And presented with a knowing choice, would choose mine as rewarding them better than crapitalism ever could.

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people still have to be educated and prepared for such a revolution,
Not unless we get control of the pathways into their minds, ie, the media,....

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the process of doing that will cause small changes to occur
I concur,...

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resulting not in revolution, but the devolution of government as it withers away, resisted, ignored, and bypassed by people who no longer accept the legitimacy of government.
The most likely scenario,....

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Ending the legitimacy of government in people's minds seems to me to be the key to getting rid of government and ushering in an anarchist society.
Absolutely, it is just a matter of how, spectacle today, or death by ignoring over time,....

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We cannot possibly hope to openly fight governments unless we can match them in manpower, weapons, and technology.
We will not win on the battlefield, death is the domain of evil and we are bringing light.
How we reach the battlefield of the mind is the question, spectacle is faster, but education can work.

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it will only be after governments have been greatly weakened in legitimacy and power,
If those kids in Baltimore could be shown that we don't have to have dollars, but we do have to do the work we could capitalize on the moment, but I can't go and nobody but me is advocating anything but crapitalism that I have seen.
I mean, I'm sure that others have followed the non-aggression principle as far down the path as I have, but I just haven't been introduced to them.

Hello Mac,
The sad thing is that people like Freeborn could be allies if they truly believed in a voluntary society.

Please point to where I have advocated anything but a voluntary society?
Perhaps I have advocated seizing the pathways into the minds of the people, but the people will still have to freely choose to follow my advice.
Mine is not a top down dictatorship, even one as small as the local farmer ordering around the local drunk.

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I would rather be part of a community where I could own property and buy and sell my labor. 
And I would rather be part of a community that recognizes my work as a gift deserving of their own.

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As long as his community doesn't attack us or plunder our resources then the two communities could exist side by side.
I don't see your refusal to associate with us as compatable.
It is you that sets yourself up as the authority over what is yours, we give freely as a matter of pride.
Your rules would require you to exploit our generosity for your own benefit, you've said as much.
You would take from our shelves and contribute nothing.
And because it is better to carry a bum than to enslave him we, in the majority, would let you until your consumption threatened one of us enough to surgically remove you as a cancerous cell.
No, your insistence that we trade at a disadvantage, ie, profits to you at the expense of our labor, would not allow us to live side by side.
I am convinced that with just the leisure available under my system I would have no problems converting your slaves.

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Actually in a voluntary society there may be 100 different communities, each one trying their own type of economic system.
Right, and how is that any different than the world today, the US exploits the labor costs of the poor and your 100 communities would do the same.
Dollars are an accounting trick that exploit those without them to the benefit of those that create them from nothing and trade them to us at face value for our lives.
Crapitalism is that system's dogma.
Just look to the religiously blind adherence to it.

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That's the beauty of freedom is that society doesn't have to fit any one model. Individuals are free to chose what kind of lifestyle they want to live as long as they don't force others.
Absolutely, if you want to work less, consume less, if you want every bell and whistle then work more, or invent the personal computer,....nobody under my system is going to deny Steve Jobs whatever level of consumption makes his tummy tingle,...he can't take it with him, after all.

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The problem with many leftists is that all of society has to fit their mold.
Said the 'free market' crapitalist that refuses all but his own paradigm.

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Its pretty sad that leftists can't even tolerate the existence of one different system or any people who have different ideas.
By leftist I am going to assume that you mean authoritarians such as yourself, and not me, I can't repeat that my proposal will have to be voluntarily emplaced any more emphatically than I already have.

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It reveals the totalitarian and utopian tendencies of their ideology.
UH HUM,.....ditto,.... Wink

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"The whole world must accept it for it to work."
Once the idea is fully understood, it won't be a problem finding converts.

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I wouldn't care if 99% of the world decided to live in some sort of co-op or commune.  Just as long as I'm free to associate with the 1% of like-minded individuals whether it be 100 people or just 10.
Reverse the situation, do you think you could sell crapitalism to someone that only has to produce enough for himself when you are telling him that he has to produce enough to support the bosses and their wives' lavish spending?
That he has to produce one for him and three for the stockholders?

I hope you stay on the voluntaryist path, AG, you will come to see that I am right, just as I did.
I, too, was once a crapitalist, it was the only option presented to me and it was presented with misnamed undesirable opposites to choose from.
Only by following the non-aggression principle was I able to see my way to true freedom.
You will, too.









« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 08:49:57 PM by FreeBornAngel » Logged

Proclaim me Rey del Mundo!

World Peace in 20 Words or Less:
It's wrong to force a person to do anything that that person doesn't want to do.
anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 12:05:43 AM »

Goods aren't 'valued' in my system at all,.....only in the paradigm you accept,.....
Crapitalism is soooo different than what I propose that the terms you are trying to fence my proposal in with are not applicable.

You are the one who mentioned "what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger."  What you are attempting to do here is calculate value.  But go ahead, backtrack and pretend that there is no "value" in your system when you just described how to calculate it.

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What is more valuable, the Saturday that you spend earning enough money to buy that bauble or the Saturday you spend with your friends and family?
Which system on the table, mine and yours, do you suppose will deliver more family time while still making consumer goods available?

Your system would definitely deliver more family time since there wouldn't be any consumer goods available at all.  Once the stores were looted and people carried away all the free stuff, we would have all the family time in the world. People would probably get tired of family time once they began starving though.

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Ok, lets grant that what you say did happen, what do we do now?

Society would degenerate to a level of subsistence living.

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Do we sit around and cry in the beer we don't have because we don't have means to supply it, or do we set about creating a system that doesn't reward sloth?

You mean after we adopt your system that rewards sloth how do we create a system that doesn't reward sloth? That's simple.  If people were smart they would get rid of the the childish system of "everyone can take whatever they want" to a system based on private property. In other words we adopt a system where it is not ok to take things that belong to other people without their permission.

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My system floats because of the willingness of the people to do right, ie, to contribute to the collective whole because we love one another.

Hey if you think that system will float, I wish you luck.  Try to find like minded people, associate with them and build that system. Just don't force us to live that way or steal our stuff, thanks.

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Indeed he does, he deserves one share of the work.
But that is not what crapitalism does, it does not divide the fruit of the labor equally among the workers,


OK, now we are getting somewhere.  So you didn't show any exploitation between the Employer and the Employee in my example (that's because there isn't any) and you even admit that the Employer deserves a share.  But you think that he deserves only an equal share with the workers. Why should the employer who lived and worked on his farm his whole life share everything equally with a guy who comes in and works for a month on his farm. That's ridiculous. The employer shouldn't have to divide everything equally between himself and his workers. Why should he divide it equally? That doesn't make any sense at all. Why should everyone get an equal share?  Where did you get this idea from?  What if I'm a worker and I've been there ten years and work 6 days a week, should I get an equal share with someone who was been there one year and works 3 days a week?  This equal share concept is a bunch of democratic BS.  It makes no sense. A better idea is that each employee makes a contract with the employer for how much they will receive.  If they agree on an amount then the employee works there, if they don't agree then he doesn't work there. That's fair.

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in fact, it rewards the non-producer much better than the worker, that is how the 1% get to be the 1%.

Actually, many of the 1% got there because of special favors from gov, not capitalism or any free-marked activity.

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My friend works at fedex, she gets $13 an hour and has been there 8 years, she gets all giddy when the managers give out free swag, but she doesn't connect the fact that her not being compensated fully is what made that swag available.
Now let's add in the $12.1 million NFL sponsorship...
All of which came directly from not paying her the full market value to put boxes into vans.
Her putting boxes into vans netted the bosses far more than it netted her.
Crap if you ask me.

You mean "some of which came from not paying her the full market value to put boxes into vans" LOL. Well it may by crap to you but its not crap to her, or at least its less crappy than her other options from her perspective.  But one thing it is definitely not is exploitation.  There is no exploitation in your FedEx example. They contracted to pay her $13 per hour for her time. If they pay her that then its fair.  Its what they agreed too.  She may want more, they may want to pay less...  It doesn't matter that's what they agreed to.  No exploitation here.  People are free to sell their labor for whatever price they agree to.

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He could have had it for free under my proposal because the plow maker recognizes the importance of the potato farmer having good tools.

No, there will be no farm tools in your proposal because nobody is going to be stupid enough to make them so that people can just loot them.  LOL

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And that risk is eliminated by what I propose.

Oh, and in your system there is no longer any changing weather patterns or potato blights or bad harvests? OMG you must be joking now right? LOL. Childish Leftist Utopian nonsense at its best.

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I hope my fedex example serves here,...

Your Fedex example serves as an example of a contract, not exploitation.

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If it wasn't the 'free' market that refused me bread until I was exploited by someone with more money than me, then who did?

1) You have not given me even one example of exploitation in all your rantings.

2) Starvation is what happens when people don't have enough food. This is a fact of nature. Not every example of starvation can be blamed on someone else.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:11:57 AM by anarchoguitarist » Logged
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