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Author Topic: Refute-A-Quote 8 - Final one for Quote Source 1!  (Read 5031 times)
Mr.Mister
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« on: October 27, 2014, 07:34:18 PM »

This next one is going to be comprised of three quotes. I felt like it would be a good idea because it sort of shows why this man views anarcho communism as superior to anarcho capitalism.

I also wanted to end this man's turn in refute-a-quote with a bang.

When these quotes are refuted, I'll finally reveal the source of the quotes I've cited so far, coupled along with a link!

Good Luck!

1."Wrong. The free market is not you and I. The free market is a way for the rich to oppress the poor. You only have any fucking modicum of freedom, if you can pay for it."

2."Yes, we do advocate for organising society through direct consensus democracy, and that could be described as a form of government, but what we are against is social hierarchies, and states; not governments. There is an important distinction here. A state is an organisation with a monopoly on the use of violence within a specific area; this includes all kinds of oppression such as racism, sexism, transphobia, capitalism, et.c. A government is a governing body, and in combination with a state this governing body becomes elitist and oligarchal. What we argue for is, esentially, a government that includes everyone so that no one can be oppressed. Everyone will have an equal amount of control over the system."

3. "In an anarcho-communist society the collective goals would be the same as the personal ones, because you're part of the collective! If things are better for the collective, things are by definition better for you!"

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macsnafu
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 10:36:14 PM »


1."Wrong. The free market is not you and I. The free market is a way for the rich to oppress the poor. You only have any fucking modicum of freedom, if you can pay for it."
  Hmm...again he mistakes economic means for power.  The only way to use money is to spend it.  You can spend it on consumables, or you can spend (or invest) it for capital goods, to be used for making more goods and services.  That's no way to oppress people.  Sure, you can go hire some thugs to beat someone up, but that's asking someone to do something specifically criminal and coercive, not the general "oppression" people usually complain about.  If you're spending your money, even if you're spending it lavishly on luxuries, you're still helping other people who provide those goods and services, and you're helping the economy in general.

The market is everyone in the economy who produces and consumes.  No, you and I are not the market, but we're certainly part of it, carving out our own niche of supply and demand.  A free market, on the other hand, is simply a market free from coercive interference.  We're not part of a free market unless a free market exists.

Quote
2."Yes, we do advocate for organising society through direct consensus democracy, and that could be described as a form of government, but what we are against is social hierarchies, and states; not governments. There is an important distinction here. A state is an organisation with a monopoly on the use of violence within a specific area; this includes all kinds of oppression such as racism, sexism, transphobia, capitalism, et.c. A government is a governing body, and in combination with a state this governing body becomes elitist and oligarchal. What we argue for is, esentially, a government that includes everyone so that no one can be oppressed. Everyone will have an equal amount of control over the system."
I won't repeat my comments on direct consensus democracy.  What's interesting is that left-anarchists consider hierarchy as inherently coercive and oppressive, but it's never quite clear why that must be.  Ancaps, being largely from the libertarian tradition, simply hold that coercion, i.e. the initiation of force, is wrong.  Hierarchies are not inherently evil, but can be coercive or voluntary.  It's just another way of organizing people, and a way of utilizing the division of labor to be more productive and achieve more.  Show me the hierarchical organization of a private club or organization and try to tell me that their "heirarchy" is evil and oppressive when everyone is a voluntary member and is free to leave the organization or club at any time.

I've sometimes considered if there's a difference between a state and a government, but if there is, it's not really clear.  Of course, if we refer to private clubs and organizations again, we could say that they have governing bodies, but which are clearly not states.  Again, the evil is not the structure of the organization, but whether it is coercive or voluntary. 

Now, if the ancoms want to have a governing body that people are free to join up with or free to leave, ancaps wouldn't really have a problem with that--it's just freedom of association and individual choice.  But if everybody has to be part of this governing body without being able to opt out, then the ancoms themselves are wanting to be coercive.  Furthermore, how can this governing body, either voluntary or coercive, exist without some form of hierarchy?  Even if everyone has an equal vote on everything, there's got to be various offices and positions that handle different parts of this governing body.  Who runs and tallies the vote?  Who maintains the records and finances?  Who decides what it is that is voted on?  And etc. 

More importantly, exactly what is this governing body governing?  That would probably tell us if it would be voluntary or coercive.  Are they striving for consensus on educational policies, health care benefits, retirement ages and plans?  Are they voting on what color is acceptable for your house and if you can have garden gnomes in your yard?  Are they voting on how many barbers and accountants there need to be, and who's going to be barbers and accountants?  Some of these things would be more scary than others, but they all smack of coercion, and it's hard to see how they can reach a consensus on these items. 

No, in the ancap view, we're better off getting rid of all involuntary politics and political systems, all of those coercive hierarchies (but not the voluntary hierarchies).  The market economy is much more efficient and even more 'democratic' than any political system, regardless of how egalitarian they might seem to be.

Quote
3. "In an anarcho-communist society the collective goals would be the same as the personal ones, because you're part of the collective! If things are better for the collective, things are by definition better for you!"
Just as you and I are not the market, only part of it, you and I are not the collective, but only part of it.  Therefore, we're still individuals, and individuals are notorious for having differing goals and ends that sometimes conflict with other individuals' goals and ends.  Even where you have a consensus, it exists only because some people are willing to give up or compromise some of their goals for "the greater good" of the collective.  Everyone is not necessarily better off for this.


These shorter quotes are tough because you have to really understand the left-anarchist language and terms to know what they're talking about, and then you have to figure out the larger implications of their ideas, implications that they themselves don't seem to have figured out, or at least they're not talking about it.

Hmm...I just realized that he uses the British spelling of "organisation", whereas I use the American spelling "organization".  Is our ancom friend of the United Kingdom?

So, does that unlike the first cut-scene of this game?   Tongue
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Mr.Mister
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 10:58:59 PM »

AAAAAND that, ladies and gentleman, puts the nail on the coffin of Refute-a-Quote: Quote Source 1!

Thanks for being such an avid replier, macsnafu. In fact, thanks to all the people who have ever commented on my Refute-a-quote Posts so far!

You were right that this guy is from the UK, macsnafu. All along, it was a youtuber who went by the alias "Black Flag Proletariat". These quotes were all taken from a comment he left on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVqzs9_gz0

I know, it's underwhelming, but trust me: the difficulty and creativity is gonna get cranked up...

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MAM
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 08:28:19 PM »

AAAAAND that, ladies and gentleman, puts the nail on the coffin of Refute-a-Quote: Quote Source 1!

Thanks for being such an avid replier, macsnafu. In fact, thanks to all the people who have ever commented on my Refute-a-quote Posts so far!

You were right that this guy is from the UK, macsnafu. All along, it was a youtuber who went by the alias "Black Flag Proletariat". These quotes were all taken from a comment he left on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVqzs9_gz0

I know, it's underwhelming, but trust me: the difficulty and creativity is gonna get cranked up...



Looking forward to seeing this...
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