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Author Topic: Refute-A-Quote 3  (Read 6840 times)
Mr.Mister
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« on: October 23, 2014, 11:18:57 PM »

This next one is SOOOOO difficult, I'm not even sure if Murray Rothbard himself could pick it apart.

Good Luck...you're REALLY gonna need it this time.

BTW, when ALL the quotes are refuted, I'll throw in a reward by finally revealing who created them.  Grin

"The reason that we (social anarchists) have a problem with your ideas of private property is that it becomes too easy for feudalistic situations to arise; if someone owns land he/she can decide who lives upon it and what firms are allowed there, and by doing this he/she can manipulate the situation so that it maximises his/her own monetary gain. Now, you could say that someone who treats people living on his/her land badly would be boycotted by most people, but the problem is that not everyone (and certainly not those living on his/her land) would have the means to do this. Moving, in a capitalist society, requires money; money that not everyone is going to have, which inevitibly results in the oppression of some. This all applies to private owenership of the means of production as well. This is not just magically solved by the NAP, because there is literally no incentive (monetary or other) to follow it. It's like putting a dog leash on a dreadnought classed battleship. It just doesn't work."

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Mr.Mister
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 10:59:46 AM »

Still waiting...unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to post a new one until this quote gets refuted.
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macsnafu
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 12:52:56 PM »

Still waiting...unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to post a new one until this quote gets refuted.

Why?  Does the next one depend on the answers to this one?  Are you writing a school paper or book? Or trying to put together a refutation to the social anarchist who originally said these things?
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Mr.Mister
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 01:01:20 PM »

Still waiting...unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to post a new one until this quote gets refuted.

Why?  Does the next one depend on the answers to this one?  Are you writing a school paper or book? Or trying to put together a refutation to the social anarchist who originally said these things?


Think of it like some sort of "level progression" system. Like I said before, I'm kind of a newcomer to anarcho-capitalism, so I'd like to get a better insight on some of the challenges leveled against it. I felt like this Refute-a-quote series I started could stir up some more activity on these forums, as well....
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MAM
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 02:33:58 PM »

I used to consider myself an AnCap. Then I read some stuff and realized that the Leftists aren't completely full of shit.

Then I read some more shit and realized that the Statists aren't completely full of shit either.

Then I started looking at the world and I came to the conclusion that there are enough fucked up people in the world that I personally do not want to deal with and I'm glad there are rough men between me and them (this would be State military at this point)
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Mr.Mister
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 02:48:45 PM »

Oh boy. I seriously hope that this isn't where refute-a-quote ends  Sad

Think of it like this: in order to unlock level 4, you need to beat level 3.

So someone please step up to the challenge. (I'm trying to make this sound fun and exciting).
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macsnafu
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 03:16:43 PM »

I used to consider myself an AnCap. Then I read some stuff and realized that the Leftists aren't completely full of shit.

Then I read some more shit and realized that the Statists aren't completely full of shit either.

Then I started looking at the world and I came to the conclusion that there are enough fucked up people in the world that I personally do not want to deal with and I'm glad there are rough men between me and them (this would be State military at this point)

Just remember that the "rough men" can rough you up, too, unless you do what they tell you to.  Does *that* make you feel safer??
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macsnafu
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 03:27:17 PM »

"The reason that we (social anarchists) have a problem with your ideas of private property is that it becomes too easy for feudalistic situations to arise; if someone owns land he/she can decide who lives upon it and what firms are allowed there, and by doing this he/she can manipulate the situation so that it maximises his/her own monetary gain. Now, you could say that someone who treats people living on his/her land badly would be boycotted by most people, but the problem is that not everyone (and certainly not those living on his/her land) would have the means to do this. Moving, in a capitalist society, requires money; money that not everyone is going to have, which inevitibly results in the oppression of some. This all applies to private owenership of the means of production as well. This is not just magically solved by the NAP, because there is literally no incentive (monetary or other) to follow it. It's like putting a dog leash on a dreadnought classed battleship. It just doesn't work."

Sorry, real life occasionally intrudes...just give it some time.

Anyway, the person making this argument misses the point that there's a market in land, too.  Land is, or can be capital, and like capital, it's worthless unless you're doing something productive with it.  Merely owning land doesn't give a person power over others--it's what they do with the land that counts.

If someone else thinks they can put a piece of land to a more productive use than the current owner, then they will be willing to pay the owner something equal to or greater than the value the owner places on the land, ownership is transferred, and the new owner attempts to be more productive with the land.

When it comes to treating people badly on your land, again there's a matter of competition and the expense of enforcing rules.  If someone owns several square miles of land, it's going to be treated differently than if someone owns a mere acre.  Why would someone go onto someone's property if they thought they would be treated badly in the first place?  Or if they didn't have some kind of protection or an easy way off the land again? 

So again you have competition among landowners and the issue of reputation--why deal with a difficult landowner when you can deal with a landowner who is easier to get along with?  Why be a peon or serf when the next guy is paying handsome wages, or maybe even offering partnerships?

I'm not sure I've answered all possible objections, so let me know if I've overlooked something.  And if I don't answer right away, don't worry, I'll be back!  ;-)
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Mr.Mister
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 11:14:56 PM »

It solidly counters everything the person said EXCEPT the part where he talks about how the poor would be incapable of moving since it costs money to move. Nevertheless, an effective response.

Thanks!
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MAM
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2014, 01:46:37 AM »

Quote
Just remember that the "rough men" can rough you up, too, unless you do what they tell you to.  Does *that* make you feel safer??

Of course they can rough me up.

There are some threats I can handle.

There are alot of threats I can't.

Let's consider a very real example in the US. Cartel sicarios setting up shop. Some of these guys got training from Fort Benning.

The US Military is VERY good. These sicarios are just as skilled but they have zero limits. In the US there are limits and protections for citizens in place. Is the system perfect? No it's not. Can it degenerate to tyranny? Sure, is it there? No it's not.

So I've started to take my security far more seriously. However I have no delusions of heroism. I'm not a hero, I don't want to be a hero. I just want to live.

Anyway bad people have skills and the ability to hone those skills and train that I don't. Which means that I MUST put my greater strategic security in the hands of another entity, whose members are armed and trained to the level of the OPFOR. Which at this point is the US Military. 

If you haven't heard of Rudolph Rummel I think you should look into him. He coined the term "democide" to mean "murder by one's own government' and according to his research it was the leading cause of death  in the 20th century.

His findings support the idea that liberty freedom and representative government reduces the chances of democide. He also put forth Democratic Peace Theory.

One thing I'm confident in; there will always be coercion in society, there will be some sort of military organization in place, and public property is probably going to exist. I've written some articles on some of this stuff. I'll probably work on more.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Mr.Mister
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2014, 03:14:05 AM »

MAM, although I still believe in organization without the state, I must say that your viewpoint certainly deserves enormous respect. You seem to have spent an immense amount of time analyzing various political perspectives, so I think the argument you're trying to put forth is worth noting (that and how clear you were). To go from ancap to wherever you're at? Shoot...I can't even imagine how much reading was involved.
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MAM
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014, 12:23:10 PM »

MAM, although I still believe in organization without the state, I must say that your viewpoint certainly deserves enormous respect. You seem to have spent an immense amount of time analyzing various political perspectives, so I think the argument you're trying to put forth is worth noting (that and how clear you were). To go from ancap to wherever you're at? Shoot...I can't even imagine how much reading was involved.

It's been alot of reading Smiley and I have no idea what I am anymore. Maybe I'll figure it out. Until then having nice conversations is a good way to go!
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
macsnafu
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2014, 01:36:44 PM »

Mam, it's one thing to be "pragmatic" and accept that you have to live within the limits of the existing society.  But it's another thing entirely to believe that the way things are now is the way things *ought* to be.  The very fact that change is always occurring belies that idea.  But how can we make sure that the changes that occur are going to be in the direction we want to take?
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MAM
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2014, 05:48:50 PM »

Mam, it's one thing to be "pragmatic" and accept that you have to live within the limits of the existing society.  But it's another thing entirely to believe that the way things are now is the way things *ought* to be.  The very fact that change is always occurring belies that idea.  But how can we make sure that the changes that occur are going to be in the direction we want to take?


This is about attaching means to ends. Something I've been thinking alot about lately, I'm Michael Hendricks btw, I believe my article is still on the front page and I have a few more if you want to take a look at them.

Quote
Mam, it's one thing to be "pragmatic" and accept that you have to live within the limits of the existing society.  But it's another thing entirely to believe that the way things are now is the way things *ought* to be. 

I concur.


 In my opinion violent revolution is retarded, and is going to get you killed. The freer the people the less likely democide will occur. I believe in peaceful transition. Violence serves to move the society towards authoritarianism, and authoritarianism breeds more violence.

Next: It seems that the first step is to consider what in society isn't working the way we want. From there it's about winning hearts and minds.

Some things I recommend: T-Shirts, Networking through social sites and advertisement. I'm not in marketing, but all successful movements succeeded because of support, in other words populism is key. I also think agorism is a good strategy. It's not going to be one thing or another that achieves a goal, it's going to have to be a coordinated effort.

It seems to me that each problem requires unique (organic) solutions. So while there needs to be planning and coordinating (organizing, and federalist organization coordination perhaps?), people Networking and problem solving organically shouldn't be ruled out or underestimated.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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