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Author Topic: Refute-A-Quote 2  (Read 4125 times)
Mr.Mister
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« on: October 23, 2014, 09:51:48 PM »

As with the last one I made, try to refute the quote presented. I think this should be a pretty hard one for you guys...

"Self ownership implies that persons can belong to people, which is a disgusting idea to me. You aren't owned by anyone; you are autonomous."

Good luck!
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »

As with the last one I made, try to refute the quote presented. I think this should be a pretty hard one for you guys...

"Self ownership implies that persons can belong to people, which is a disgusting idea to me. You aren't owned by anyone; you are autonomous."

Good luck!

What is so hard about this one?  Self-ownership doesn't imply that persons can belong to other people.  Self-ownership means the exact opposite!  It means that "I" alone own myself, not someone else.  Equally, "You" alone own yourself, not someone else.  This guy tries to twist the word to mean the exact opposite of its actual meaning.

I think the real problem here is the term "ownership." This guy probably has a problem with private property so he doesn't like to hear that he actually "owns" himself.  When we mean refer to self-ownership, we mean that you have the right to control and make all ultimate decisions concerning the use of your body.  If this guy doesn't like the word "self-ownership" then he can just stick to the word "autonomous" which simply means "self-controlling" or "self-directing" or "self-governing."  The terms "self-ownership" and "autonomous" mean the same thing. By denying one and accepting the other he is either playing semantic games or simply revealing that he doesn't understand what they mean.
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Mr.Mister
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 11:05:24 PM »

That was quick and brutal Grin

Guess I'll have to bring in a quote that'll be unbelievably difficult for "Refute-A-Quote 3"

Excuse me if I sound arrogant, but I really feel like me and Liberaltarian breathed new life into this forum...I mean, think about it: don't you notice the increase in new posts?

Anyways, I think Refute-A-Quote is gonna be a long running game here...nice job, anarcho guitarist. I also appreciate your response on refute a quote 1, along with Seth King's. Hopefully you're enjoying yourself in the process of responding.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:07:45 PM by Mr.Mister » Logged
macsnafu
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 12:30:22 PM »

As with the last one I made, try to refute the quote presented. I think this should be a pretty hard one for you guys...

"Self ownership implies that persons can belong to people, which is a disgusting idea to me. You aren't owned by anyone; you are autonomous."

Good luck!

Yeah, "self-ownership" is often misconstrued to be the idea that people are/can be property, when really it means self-autonomy, as anarchoguitarist points out. But wait!  If you own yourself, does that mean you can sell yourself into bondage or slavery, and thus no longer own yourself? 

For that kind of question, I go along with Murray Rothbard:  no matter what you do, you cannot alienate your own will.  You might be a silly ass and agree to enter into servitude with someone else, but it's always your own will that makes you act--you can never truly be a puppet of someone else's will.  Thus any such contracts are invalid and not really enforceable, and you can leave the arrangement at any time.  Of course, someone could try to prevent you from leaving the arrangement by the use of force, but it would be perceived as an unjust, criminal act, not an act of merely enforcing a contract.

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MAM
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 02:39:15 PM »

"You're autonomous!"

I used to think this then it occurred to me. In order to participate in society you agree (consciously or not) to follow certain rules.

It also occurred to me that freedom is a transitory thing.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

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Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
macsnafu
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 03:14:56 PM »

"You're autonomous!"

I used to think this then it occurred to me. In order to participate in society you agree (consciously or not) to follow certain rules.
That's true of any voluntary arrangement.  You're still autonomous, you have to decide that you want to associate with any particular person, group, or community.
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MAM
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2014, 01:33:53 AM »

"You're autonomous!"

I used to think this then it occurred to me. In order to participate in society you agree (consciously or not) to follow certain rules.
That's true of any voluntary arrangement.  You're still autonomous, you have to decide that you want to associate with any particular person, group, or community.

Not really. I decide some of the groups and communities that I want to participate in. However by existing it also forces me to come into contact with people I'd rather not. So you vet a guy. But then that guy brings a guy that he says "is cool". Is this dude really cool? Consider a roommate situation. Does your room mate ask your permission when they invite folk over?

What happens when your room mate is a slut and sleeps around, and in so doing brings unsavoury types back to the house? What do you do? Economics dictates the need for a room mate, and it's hard to find good people.

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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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