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Author Topic: Stuff Anarcho-Capitalists do that I hate  (Read 5859 times)
Mr.Mister
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« on: September 26, 2014, 11:56:51 PM »


PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I'M STILL A FREE MARKET CAPITALIST!

This post is just meant to address some ongoing mistakes ancaps frequently make when trying to refute libertarian socialism. I feel as though we can put forth better arguments if they're taken into account by us more often.

1. Personal Property (house, toothbrush) v.s. Private Property (Means of production, factory)

2. Communally planned socialist economy v.s. Centrally planned socialist economy

3. Direct CONSENSUS Democracy v.s. Normal Democracy

Although I myself am not against anarcho-communism, those in the libertarian right who completely disregard the above points I've mentioned make us all look ignorant. If you're gonna try and successfully poke holes in leftist libertarian ism, then you must NOT resort to straw-man arguments.

Instead:

1) Explain Why individuals should be allowed to keep and control a "means of production" if they happen to already own one and/or manage to gain one (bonus points if you can prove that hierarchy will still exist in some form under property collectivization)

2) Explain why COMMUNAL socialism is still economically dysfunctional either in the long run or the short run

3) Explain why even direct consensus democracy utilizes coercion to some extent.

One more thing: DON'T forget to keep in mind that successful ancom communities have existed in the past, like Anarchist Catalonia between 1936-1939. Try to look for weak points in these societies using empirical evidence, such as  the fact that thousands of innocents were murdered by the Spanish anarchists between 1936-1939. You're gonna need a lot more than that, though...

Good Luck

(P.S. I personally view anarcho-communism as a system that can work really well...just not one I'D want to live under. I encourage everyone to try and prove me wrong Cheesy)
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 12:08:33 AM »

1. Personal Property (house, toothbrush) v.s. Private Property (Means of production, factory)

Why is a house considered personal property and not private property? what if I live in my house but rent out the basement to someone else?  Is it personal property or a "means of production"?  I'm gaining income from the house (i.e. its a means of production) but I'm still using it as my personal living space (i.e. its a personal possession).  What if I have a bike work shop in the basement?  I can then use the house as my personal living quarters or to build and repair bikes.  What if I normally live in my house but one weekend I use the kitchen to bake some cookies to sell for some extra cash?  Does my house magically become the common property of everyone the moment I bake the cookies or the moment I sell the cookies?  Is a hammer a personal possession or a means of production?  How about a computer?

One of the problems I have with socialism is the false dichotomy between personal possessions and means of production.  There is no clear distinction between them and the concept of "means of production" inevitably involves a central government body to arbitrarily define "means of production" and enforce the collective ownership of it.
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Youngrad
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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 08:58:13 AM »

Well it comes down to what a "means of production" is... Google gives:
1.
(in a political context) the facilities and resources for producing goods.
"in this society the means of production are communally owned"

So, if I have eg a reloading set (for bullets), and I've put time + effort into the collection of equipment and resources, why should I not be allowed to keep it? I haven't disadvantaged you by gaining it (what I view capatalism as, the deliberate widening of the rich/poor division).

I'd call myself a libertarian socialist but really, if I put effort and time into something it should be mine.

So, so far I'd class myself as a libertarian socialist (anarchist), right wing ways ol the current political spectrum, and going by your post about owning means of production, I have some parts of ancap philosophy.... Is that a concept or just me Wink

2. Haven't progressed that far in my thinkings but I love the idea of the free markets in some parts of the US.
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 12:53:38 AM »

(what I view capatalism as, the deliberate widening of the rich/poor division).

Hello Youngrad,

You certainly have the strangest definition of "Capitalism" that I've ever seen. I tend to avoid using that word since it has such a negative connotation to some people.  You seem to be one of those people so I have some questions for you if I may. Lets pretend that you and I are the only ones living on an island in the middle of the ocean.  Everyday I catch 2 fish and you catch 2 fish.  This is enough to keep us alive.  However, one day I build a net and start catching 4 fish a day.  You still catch only 2 a day. I deliberately built the net to get more fish.  This net made me 2 times as rich as you.  Did we suddenly become a Capitalist society when I built my net and widened the rich/poor division between us?

Again, lets pretend that everyday I catch 2 fish and you catch 2 fish.  Then one day I break my leg and become crippled. Now I'm only able to catch 1 fish a day, but you continue to catch 2 fish a day. Though its not deliberate, you are now 2 times as rich as me.  Did we not become a Capitalist society in this case because the cause was not deliberate?

I'm trying to understand how your definition could possible apply to the real world.

Quote
So, if I have eg a reloading set (for bullets), and I've put time + effort into the collection of equipment and resources, why should I not be allowed to keep it? I haven't disadvantaged you by gaining it

Actually you did disadvantage me by gaining the reloading set.  Before you had it we both had to buy ammunition from the store.  After you got the reloading set you can reload your ammo and save money because you don't have to buy it from the store anymore.  However, I still have to buy ammo from the store.  So by getting the reloading set you have widened the rich/poor gap between us.  Does this mean you are a Capitalist?

Quote
I'd call myself a libertarian socialist but really, if I put effort and time into something it should be mine.

Lets say I work for 20 years building houses and save 20,000.  With the 20,000 dollars as a down payment I'm able to get a loan to buy a factory to build TVs.  I then hire 20 workers to help build the TV's in order to make a profit.  Does the factory belong to me because I put time and effort into it?  Or should the factory be communally owned because it is a means of production?
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Syock
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2015, 10:02:19 PM »

1) Explain Why individuals should be allowed to keep and control a "means of production" if they happen to already own one and/or manage to gain one (bonus points if you can prove that hierarchy will still exist in some form under property collectivization)

By using the word "allowed" you show the problem of regular socialism.  By taking something, they wouldn't really be all that libertarian would they?  

I've always backed voluntary forms of socialism.  They can make a voluntary kingdom for all I care.  As soon as it is no longer voluntary is when problems arise.  If a group of people get together to obtain their own means of production, great.  Let them go for it.  If they want to take things from someone else, they have to expect resistance.

If they want communal ownership, they could buy stock in companies.  They will then have partial ownership of a publicly traded company with the means of production.  
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 10:58:39 PM by Syock » Logged

FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2015, 07:46:12 PM »


PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I'M STILL A FREE MARKET CAPITALIST!

Sorry about your poor choice.

I think that what you seek will be better served by my proposal,....https://dailyanarchist.com/forum/index.php/topic,3269.0.html

Quote
Try to look for weak points in these societies using empirical evidence, such as  the fact that thousands of innocents were murdered by the Spanish anarchists between 1936-1939.

Not very anarchist of them to use violence to compel compliance,....

Until money is eliminated from the interpersonal relations of the human race we will always be slaves to those that have more of it.


































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