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Author Topic: A question  (Read 7180 times)
templariomaster
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« on: March 30, 2014, 06:20:22 AM »

The last day a question went to my head.

 Lets say that by... the power of imagination I go as a president of my country and say "lets create ancapia!"s so I cut all taxes(efectively destroying the state) and create a social contract like the Shire society one so people can choose to be part of ancapia or not by voluntarly acepting the NAP.

But, what happens with those who dont signt the contract? They cant stay in ancapia since they reject it but no one can initiate force against them since the NAP is universal.

Note: Any fellow spaniard here?
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Syock
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 10:10:40 AM »

Why would they have to leave?  They just wouldn't have the institutional power to steal anymore.   
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templariomaster
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 11:09:15 AM »

But they dont accept the NAP as the most basic principle, so they dont accept to be part of ancapia therefore they cant live in it.

Thats because they're not accepting that they cant initiate force, or private property.
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Syock
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 12:11:06 PM »

But they dont accept the NAP as the most basic principle, so they dont accept to be part of ancapia therefore they cant live in it.

Thats because they're not accepting that they cant initiate force, or private property.

Why can they not live in it?  What do you expect to do with criminals that are born there, kick them out to sea?   People need not agree to the NAP.   They will just hit the reality of people defending themselves. 
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Batchain
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 12:30:37 PM »

I think you'll never get to an ancap society until you've got to the point where you don't need a contract for the non-aggression principle.  There's no point in getting people to sign a contract saying that they won't murder, rape, steal... If people are willing to do those things, they aren't going to abide by a contract anyways.  In a free society, where most people accept the non-aggression principal voluntarily of their own choosing, many people will have realized they need to protect their self ownership because there will always be *some* people willing to use force, and your person who doesn't believe in the non-aggression principal won't last very long.  Using violence and force is very dangerous.... unless you've convinced the person you're using force against that what you're doing is good... but at the point where most people understand and accept the non-aggression principal,  I'm thinking we'll all have woken up to that particular scam...
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Seth King
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 01:00:37 PM »

I think you'll never get to an ancap society until you've got to the point where you don't need a contract for the non-aggression principle.  There's no point in getting people to sign a contract saying that they won't murder, rape, steal... If people are willing to do those things, they aren't going to abide by a contract anyways.  In a free society, where most people accept the non-aggression principal voluntarily of their own choosing, many people will have realized they need to protect their self ownership because there will always be *some* people willing to use force, and your person who doesn't believe in the non-aggression principal won't last very long.  Using violence and force is very dangerous.... unless you've convinced the person you're using force against that what you're doing is good... but at the point where most people understand and accept the non-aggression principal,  I'm thinking we'll all have woken up to that particular scam...

Well said!
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When are you moving to New Hampshire?
Syock
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 04:39:59 PM »

...  I'm thinking we'll all have woken up to that particular scam...

You know what they say, a sucker is born every minute. 
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templariomaster
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 07:49:57 AM »

Ok I get it, people can be part of ancapia whether they accept a Shire contract or not.

The only rule is accepting the NAP as ancaps do even if you refuse to follow it(And is not even a rule as itself just a social conclusion).

This is because I havent ever heard about how to stablish an anarchocapitalism at early stages, when most of the people is still statist, libertarian socialist, comunist... and they actively reject ancapia.
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Syock
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 11:01:41 AM »

Ok I get it, people can be part of ancapia whether they accept a Shire contract or not.

Close, but it should read: "Ok I get it, people can be part of ancapia whether they accept the NAP or not."

I don't say this to be nice and follow the NAP myself.  I say this because it is the reality of human nature.  A lot of people like to think they are moral and peaceful, but they are not.  You just have to deal with them when they press the issue. 

We have had thousands of years recorded of people violating others in the worst of ways.  Crime pays or it wouldn't happen.  That equation needs to change.  People don't live long enough and breed too fast to have every individual come to a moral conclusion that will cause societal change.  They will however act on nature and attempt to determine what is best for them.  If the price of violating the NAP is too high, they won't do it.  That is what will cause people to accept the NAP.  Currently we have people violating it on a daily basis.  They don't even think of it that way.  It is just a part of life and society.  They don't think about the fact that they live in the largest racketeering schemes in the world.  They just want to be happy.  Ignorance is bliss.

The only rule is accepting the NAP as ancaps do even if you refuse to follow it(And is not even a rule as itself just a social conclusion).

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.  How do they accept it and refuse to follow it?  Isn't the refusal to follow it a rejection of it?
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templariomaster
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 12:18:47 PM »

I was trying to say, that non-ancaps should respect ancaps beliefs when they're in ancapia because even if they're are allowed to pass(because its not neccesary to make tolls for all roads in a private society)  they have to respect others property even if they come from a society of collective property because that would be initiation of force against others.

The NAP is for humans, not for other signers.

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Syock
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 12:29:03 PM »

The NAP is for humans, not for other signers.

Other species can write? 
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templariomaster
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 12:46:34 PM »

Im saying is universal but now that you ask

http://jkinnison475.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/elephant-painting-2.jpg

Art is a form of expression and identity.
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Syock
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 12:54:29 PM »

Im saying is universal but now that you ask

http://jkinnison475.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/elephant-painting-2.jpg

Art is a form of expression and identity.

You could also say a dog howling is music.  That doesn't mean they can understand and sign the NAP.  

I was trying to say, that non-ancaps should respect ancaps beliefs when they're in ancapia ...

They should, but to expect it would be risky.  Also, how would you keep them out?  I doubt an ancap society would be into border control. 
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templariomaster
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 02:28:18 PM »

Im saying is universal but now that you ask

http://jkinnison475.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/elephant-painting-2.jpg

Art is a form of expression and identity.

You could also say a dog howling is music.  That doesn't mean they can understand and sign the NAP.  

I was trying to say, that non-ancaps should respect ancaps beliefs when they're in ancapia ...

They should, but to expect it would be risky.  Also, how would you keep them out?  I doubt an ancap society would be into border control. 

1-It was a joke dammit.

2-I guess that or you cant because they are humans and you cant initiate force against them, just make the NAP so dangerous to violate that people will take care to read about it before entering and respecting it(and still there would be problems but thats why Im paying for weapons or private contractors right?)
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Montanarchist
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 07:07:09 PM »

The last day a question went to my head.

 Lets say that by... the power of imagination I go as a president of my country and say "lets create ancapia!"s so I cut all taxes(efectively destroying the state) and create a social contract like the Shire society one so people can choose to be part of ancapia or not by voluntarly acepting the NAP.

But, what happens with those who dont signt the contract? They cant stay in ancapia since they reject it but no one can initiate force against them since the NAP is universal.

Note: Any fellow spaniard here?

Most likely in my mind: the statists cannot grasp the concept of voluntary government or that nothing government gives you is free because you already paid taxes for it. They would throw some sort off occupy riot burning the property of free citizens who refused to join the new governments and communes they tried to organize (you better believe the Commies would be all over that chance) and it would all end with some statist country rolling in with tanks to "end the chaos" and "restore order" and "free the people".

One possibility though is if the state that ruled prior was a nuclear power or even just a large military power. What woul happen to the weapons? You can throw open a armory and start selling rifles, grenades, even RPGs and Tanks but the other states out there won't be to happy about ICBMs and Nuclear Subs on the market to the highest bidder.

Conversely if an organization exists (possibly included in your NAP contract) that uses the sellof of former government property to maintain the MAD systems of a former Nuclear State you could esentialy hold the world hostage and say "try to invade us statists, just try and find out what happens." There are problems there but I think working out something like that could get somewhere so long as supporting this group was voluntary and contract based. After all we don't oppose government, we oppose involuntary and coercive government.

Either way though I think whatever internal problems there are would normalize and dissipate when April rolls around and people realize they don't pay taxes anymore. People have notoriously short attention spans. The real threat to AnCapia is States. They will inevitably see AnCapia as either an opertunity to expand their influence into what in their minds is a Somalia-esqe black hole, or see it as a threat, a becon for disidents where anything is available, where freedom seeking people flock, and where businesses migrate en-mass. The economic exodus of corporate HQs and factories to an AnCap nation alone would cause enough economic instability to make most industrial nations shit their pants.

That's why we need a global revolution. Just as republicans and democrats hate eachother untill its time to talk two-party system, States fight eachother non-stop until there is a "hole in the map".
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