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Author Topic: The Tryany of Work  (Read 6763 times)
FreeBornAngel
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« on: October 23, 2013, 08:21:30 PM »

I would very much like to hear any, almost any Undecided, ideas on how to escape the tyrany of work.

I can explain the world as Kropotkin envisioned, and the federal reserve precludes, but I cannot see how to not have to work.

Will there ever be a time that we are superfluous to the scheme of things?
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 08:33:55 PM »

Oh no, not this again...
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Seth King
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 08:43:29 PM »

If you ever stop working... you die.

I didn't make the rules. I just live by them.
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 11:00:41 PM »

I would very much like to hear any, almost any Undecided, ideas on how to escape the tyrany of work.

I can explain the world as Kropotkin envisioned, and the federal reserve precludes, but I cannot see how to not have to work.

I'm sure these ideas have been addressed on this website before but please allow me to explain it as best I can.  We live in a world of scarcity.  Nature does not easily make available to us all the goods we need and want to stay alive. This can be illustrated if we imagine that we were trapped on a deserted island.  In this situation we could not escape the "tyranny of work" if we wished to stay alive.  We would have to struggle daily to find enough water, food, clothing and shelter to stay alive.  If we refused to hunt, fish or grow food (i.e. work) on this island, we would quickly die.

This daily struggle to survive, or tyranny of work if you prefer, is our natural state of existence.  However, there are some things we could do to make this struggle easier on us.  We could produce more in a working day so that we could rest another day.  In other words, say i need 1 fish everyday to survive.  If I catch 2 fish one day, then I could take a day's rest, which would lighten the tyranny of work nature has imposed on me. 

So anything that helps us to produce more goods will lessen the "Tyranny of work."  Tools (i.e. capital goods) help us to produce more goods, therefore we will have more time for leisure.  If therefore I build a net I may be able to catch 10 fish in one day.  Now I will only have to fish once a week or so and I could use the rest of my time for leisure.

The division of Labor increases the number of goods available also.  If there are 2 people on the island and one is good at fishing and the other at gardening, they could then focus on their strengths to increase the overall number of goods available and exchange them (or share) with one another.  This would lessen the burden of the "Tyranny of work."

So now that we have the concepts of exchange, division of labor, and capital goods we have the beginnings of the market, mankind's attempt to deal with the scarcity of nature.  It is possible to imagine that the market and technology will someday become so advanced that we will be able to construct capital goods that produce such an abundance of goods that the cost of those goods will approach zero.  It is only in this type of world that scarcity may disappear and we will be completely free from the "Tyranny of work."

Oh, wait.  There is another way to free ourselves from the tyranny of work.  I could form an institution that forces other people to produce for me.  I could therefore live off of the work of others and not have to produce anything myself.  This is the origin of the state. 

It is interesting that you mention Kropotkin.  In the conquest of bread, he doesn't claim to be able to free us from the tyranny of work.  He claims that we all would have to work less hours if private property and the state were abolished.  I respect Kropotkin because, as an anarchist, he doesn't believe in forcing anyone into his system.  However, with very few exceptions, private property gives humans an extra incentive to produce more. (not to mention the problems in calculating the efficiency of production without prices formed from private exchange)  Since producing an abundance of goods is the only way to free us from the scarcity of nature (which causes the tyranny of work), I believe private property is a better way to conquer bread.
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Disengage
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 11:54:25 AM »

What do you mean by "work"?

Do you mean working for some corporation and having 40% of your income stolen while making someone else rich?   

Or are you saying you want to sit on the couch and do nothing while robots bring you your food?

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Batchain
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 03:22:29 PM »

I would very much like to hear any, almost any Undecided, ideas on how to escape the tyrany of work.

I don't understand how working to survive somehow equals tyranny.  Facts of nature just don't equal tyranny in my mind because where would it end?  Chewing your food and breathing air are work, do you also think that is tyranny?  Are you going to feel oppressed until you are plugged into one of those pod things like The Matrix where you live in an infantile state where you do not even have to eat or breathe? 

Wake up man, work is one of the things that makes life MOST WORTH living!!! You are really missing out if you think work is tyranny.  Here's something to try, find something productive that you enjoy doing.  Learn how to do it well and use your skills to make a product or service that has value to others and sell it.  This is what I do and personally, I LOVE working and without fun and challenging work to do I would surely die of boredom.  Tongue 
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FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 10:48:42 PM »

Ok, thanks for your responses,....


@Anarchoguitarist 
I think your world view has been limited by your vocabulary.  You haven't been offered choices outside the narrow window that you have been given to see out of.  We don't need capitalism to even things out.  We want our super productive to produce in their chosen area of expertise in order to free others from drudgery of needed, but not enjoyed, labors.  Some people just love to clean houses, they should clean houses and not make shoes.  If your only solution is more of what we already have, that is the classic definition of insanity, to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result each time.  We don't have to sacrifice personal possessions to enter a world where instead of being paid in federal reserve notes we just go to the getting place and get what we need.  Be that the internet or the corner store.  We don't have to have our labors devalued by currencies, especially fiat currencies that install ruling elites at the reigns of power.  Better just to go to walmart and get what you need without paying, when the 99% figure out that the cops won't enforce the whims of the elites when they figure out that they get to go to the store for free as well.  Property crime ceases to exist when all things can be had just for contributing your labors from 20 to 45 to the common pool.  Instead of paying rent, the house builders will build you a house.  Instead of buying a car your fellow workers will build you one on the promise that you produce in whatever area of production you chose as your work.  If you want to learn to make shoes you go where they do that and work, if you want to assemble laptops you go to wherever they do that, when you get there there will be somebody that meets people at the airport and helps you find food, clothing, shelter, whatever you need to help with the production.  All without the markup of a currency, be it gold, silver, or fake papers.  If you set up a monopoly on the production of money you can expect to pay top dollar for the privilege of being over charged for the labor of those that produce the money.
You can label your system whatever you like but if you keep the concept of wage slavery you haven't escaped the paradigm, you have just changed masters.

@Disengage
Yes, robot slaves to fulfill my every whim. 
Not in the pursuit of vegetating on the couch, but to free my mind for more enjoyable pursuits.
How should I expect utopia to be?
How would you arrange your utopia?

@Poxodd
Currently, when I can get free from wage slavery, I make a sign and sit on the corner to see who thinks I am homeless and who is willing to help support my cause, End the Fed!
Today my sign said,
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FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 11:09:01 PM »

oops,....

My sign said, "Free Your Mind Wage Slave  Help End the Fed!"
It wasn't the best day, but I did get chased off by a man hating cop who I got to tell, "I will comply with your wishes simply because you have a gun and I don't."  I rode off and came back after shift change.  I will be going back to see if the power hungry bitch really wants to interfere with the first amendment in earnest, at which time I will probably go to jail for a few days, but if we don't take back our freedoms they are gonna just keep taking more and more away.  Already you have to have a permit to panhandle, but I don't panhandle and I am gonna have to fight for my right to engage in political speech in a public place.  This is the second amerikan revolution and I contribute what I can.  Does that count towards my public work?  Can I get a free pass to the store?

My time is up, I will return,,...
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Proclaim me Rey del Mundo!

World Peace in 20 Words or Less:
It's wrong to force a person to do anything that that person doesn't want to do.
Syock
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 12:23:07 AM »

@Disengage
Yes, robot slaves to fulfill my every whim. 
Not in the pursuit of vegetating on the couch, but to free my mind for more enjoyable pursuits.
How should I expect utopia to be?
How would you arrange your utopia?

I am curious, why on earth are you talking about a utopia (by definition unrealistically perfect) instead of the reality of life as we are?   It makes everything you say sound like you are completely ignorant of everything worth discussing with us.  This thread is nothing more than a waste of time because of it.  You can skip responding to this.  I have no further interest in this thread. 
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solidblack
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 05:14:25 PM »

You know that the removal of the need for work is not even really part of the argument against capitalism, right?
Not even those like Henry David Thoreau. He made arguments against the division of labor, however without  some kind of labor, he would be cold and hungry in a matter of hours. The difference was that he owned his labors. If you owned your labor you also might feel differently about "the tyranny of work"

The bottom line is that when you work for yourself, you have no one  to feel beholding to. When you give all of your responsibilities up to some father figure that takes care of your needs, you no longer have the right to make your own decisions. That is a real tyranny. 

If you won't listen to reason, you may enjoy books like the abolition of work by Bob Black or designing the future by Jacques Fresco.  Still, I'd rater save you the years of frustration I've endured and encourage you to look at work differently, or as the owner of your own labor.
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 06:30:18 PM »

Hello Angel,
Thank you so much for responding.  You wrote:
@Anarchoguitarist 
I think your world view has been limited by your vocabulary.
I’m not sure what you mean.  Do you mean that if I learn some new words then my worldview will be expanded?  Maybe you could explain what my vocabulary has to do with my worldview.  If there is a connection there why didn’t you present some new vocab or concepts in your reply?
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You haven't been offered choices outside the narrow window that you have been given to see out of.

I agree that we haven’t been offered many choices because we don’t live in a free society.  However, to say that you would choose to live in a society where nobody has to do any work they don’t like and there are going to be warehouses full of goods that anyone can enter and take what they want freely is not realistic.  I could say that I choose to live next to a tree that grows unlimited candy bars and Sony Playstations but that would not be realistic.  Likewise the society that you would like to choose is economically and socially unrealistic.
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We don't need capitalism to even things out.  We want our super productive to produce in their chosen area of expertise in order to free others from drudgery of needed, but not enjoyed, labors.  Some people just love to clean houses, they should clean houses and not make shoes.
I never said we needed Capitalism to even things out. I don’t even like the word “capitalism” since it is often associated with “state capitalism, “mercantilism,” “imperialism” etc...  I prefer to talk about markets and private property.  Yes, I agree that people who prefer to clean houses should do that rather than make shoes.  We call that the division of labor.  It is an essential part of an advanced market economy.
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If your only solution is more of what we already have, that is the classic definition of insanity, to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result each time.
We have never tried my solution.  My solution is to stop coercion.  That means abolishing the primary institution of coercion, the state.  As well as all other institutions that receive special privileges from the state, banking cartels, energy and oil cartels, public education, police forces, military forces, weapons contractors, etc...  This has never been attempted so your comment about insanity doesn’t apply.
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We don't have to sacrifice personal possessions to enter a world where instead of being paid in federal reserve notes we just go to the getting place and get what we need. Be that the internet or the corner store.  We don't have to have our labors devalued by currencies, especially fiat currencies that install ruling elites at the reigns of power.  Better just to go to walmart and get what you need without paying, when the 99% figure out that the cops won't enforce the whims of the elites when they figure out that they get to go to the store for free as well.
To think that there will be anything in Walmart if anyone can get what they need for free is unrealistic.  The place will be cleaned out in hours and nobody would ever bother stacking the shelves with new products again.
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Property crime ceases to exist when all things can be had just for contributing your labors from 20 to 45 to the common pool.  Instead of paying rent, the house builders will build you a house.  Instead of buying a car your fellow workers will build you one on the promise that you produce in whatever area of production you chose as your work.  If you want to learn to make shoes you go where they do that and work, if you want to assemble laptops you go to wherever they do that, when you get there there will be somebody that meets people at the airport and helps you find food, clothing, shelter, whatever you need to help with the production.
The problem is that people wouldn’t want to contribute their labors to a common pool for 25 years.  Why would I contribute any labor?  I want to get stuff for free and then enjoy myself all day working at my favorite job.  Video game player.  So in your society I will be a full time video game player for 25 years, then I will get all the food, clothes, beer, games, houses, drugs and computers I want.  How long do you think this society would last?  It wouldn’t even last 5 minutes my friend.   But if you want to try to build such a society, then go ahead.   Join an organization that wants to live that way.  If we lived in a free society nobody would try to stop you as long as you didn’t try to force it on anyone.
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All without the markup of a currency, be it gold, silver, or fake papers.  If you set up a monopoly on the production of money you can expect to pay top dollar for the privilege of being over charged for the labor of those that produce the money.
What is the “markup of currency?”  I would never set up a monopoly on the production of money.  I want to abolish all central banks and all legal tender laws.  Money should be produced in a free market just like everything else.  There would be many forms of money in a free society; gold, silver, bitcoins, commie labor/hour receipts, etc...  So if one of them had some sort of “markup,” it wouldn’t be able to compete against the others and would disappear from the market.
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You can label your system whatever you like but if you keep the concept of wage slavery you haven't escaped the paradigm, you have just changed masters.
I didn’t label my system anything.  All I think is that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don’t aggress against others or their property.  Now if you want to discuss what are valid forms of property I would like to hear what you have to say.  About wage slavery, you have not shown why one person can’t contract with another person to do a certain amount of labor. I should be able to do whatever I want with my body.  If that means selling my labor, who are you to tell me I can’t sell my labor to another person.  Just because you think it is slavery doesn’t mean that I agree.  I might have a good reason to sell my labor and I should be able to sell and buy labor in the free market without the interference of a 3rd party.
Again thanks for replying.  I look forward to future discussions with you.  I realize that it sucks to have to labor in this world.  If I lived in the woods by myself, I imagine I would get really tired of hunting, finding firewood and water, building by shelter, mending my clothes, etc...  I would rather live in the garden of Eden where all the food I could ever want is before me and takes no effort to procure.  However, that is unrealistic.  We live in a world of scarcity.  Things like labor and savings (deferred consumption) are necessary to provide us with the necessities of life.  Consuming if more fun than laboring or saving, but if no one labored or saved there would be no goods, and no human life.
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anarchoguitarist
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 06:41:24 PM »

Angel,

Here is what would happen if there were warehouses around that just gave out everything for free:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57607332/ebt-benefit-card-glitch-sparks-walmart-shopping-sprees-in-louisiana/

They would be cleaned out in hours. And would you like to work to restock those shelves?  I know I wouldn't.
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Disengage
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 09:57:01 PM »

Here's my response to the original question.

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I would very much like to hear any, almost any Undecided, ideas on how to escape the tyrany of work.

I don't think you're going to get many suggestions here, as most of the members probably don't consider work to be tyranny.    The economic system might be tyrannical, but most of us have no problem with someone having to "earn" their living by providing some sort of value to someone else.    Your question assumes that we all share a belief that we clearly do not, judging from the responses that you've gotten so far.

So in other words, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Now if you want to debate whether work is tyranny or not, then knock yourself out.   I'm not interested, though.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 12:42:39 AM »

For some reason I'm getting flashbacks, and it makes my head hurt. Oh yeah, I'm just recalling banging my head against a brick wall. I'll pass this time. Thanks for the Deja Vu though.
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"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
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