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Author Topic: Left Libertarian?  (Read 15456 times)
lordtlaloc
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« on: September 11, 2013, 08:39:37 PM »

So, i thought i knew what left libertarianism was, (dont like corporations) but i saw C4SS post a video about how to debate "right" libertarians, and in the comments people were discussing "local organizations" and "voluntary democracies" making decisions. This confused me, so i looked into some left lib websites, and one of them mentioned being "for property rights personally, but for communal ownership of the factors of production". Wtf? can someone explain to me what left libertarians believe, and how they handle property rights? thanks in advance.
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victim77
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 10:14:01 PM »

So, i thought i knew what left libertarianism was, (dont like corporations) but i saw C4SS post a video about how to debate "right" libertarians, and in the comments people were discussing "local organizations" and "voluntary democracies" making decisions. This confused me, so i looked into some left lib websites, and one of them mentioned being "for property rights personally, but for communal ownership of the factors of production". Wtf? can someone explain to me what left libertarians believe, and how they handle property rights? thanks in advance.
Left libertarian encompasses a lot of political philosophies. This is from the website of SEK3's proposed Alliance of the Libertarian left:

Quote
The Alliance of the Libertarian Left is a multi-tendency coalition of mutualists, agorists, voluntaryists,
geolibertarians, left-Rothbardians, green libertarians, dialectical anarchists, radical minarchists,
and others on the libertarian left, united by an opposition to statism and militarism, to cultural
intolerance (including sexism, racism, and homophobia), and to the prevailing corporatist capitalism
falsely called a free market; as well as by an emphasis on education, direct action, and building
alternative institutions, rather than on electoral politics, as our chief strategy for achieving liberation.
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victim77
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 10:15:52 PM »

There is no consensus on property rights for Left Libertarians. Most do believe in private property but a sizeable amount does not believe in absentee ownership.
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Syock
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 10:47:40 PM »

Wtf? can someone explain to me what left libertarians believe, and how they handle property rights? thanks in advance.

The problem with pretty much all political thought is that at some point or another, they make an arbitrary line that makes sense to them personally and most others will disagree with at least to some extent.  As soon as they do that, attempting to use logic to figure out what or why someone believes something becomes an exercise in futility. 

They will never nail down the exacts of it because they can't justify illogical thought amongst themselves. 

The only reason we have the illogical messes around the world we currently have is because someone at some point had the weapons and ability to say, "We are doing this my way".
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MAM
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 11:35:54 PM »

I'm finding that not believing in absentee ownership makes homesteading easier...
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Syock
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 11:56:51 PM »

I'm finding that not believing in absentee ownership makes homesteading easier...

It also means that you can't really have a nature preserve, or purchase land for future development, or long term log cutting operations.  Depending on duration, most farmland would be fair game too.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:59:54 PM by Syock » Logged

SimonJester
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 01:49:14 AM »

I'm finding that not believing in absentee ownership makes homesteading easier...

It also means that you can't really have a nature preserve, or purchase land for future development, or long term log cutting operations.  Depending on duration, most farmland would be fair game too.

To say nothing of the hunting cabin I want to build a step at a time, on vacation, and eventually retire to.  This would annoy me, having purchased and improved the land, living down in the city all week to pay for the solar panels I'm planning to install this weekend.  I would have to say I'd perceive that as an act of overt, unprovoked aggression and treat it as such.
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lordtlaloc
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 09:49:01 AM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 11:20:29 AM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 11:38:59 AM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.

Molyneux addresses your objections to absentee ownership.  In a society without absentee ownership, one could never leave home, entrepreneurs could not build and maintain roads, factories, and the like, etc.  It would be a primitive shithole of a dystopia, which I'm guessing from your username you'd like.
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 12:07:34 PM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.

How long can I go on vacation, or off to earn a living, before someone declares me "absentee"?
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 12:19:19 PM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.

Molyneux addresses your objections to absentee ownership.  In a society without absentee ownership, one could never leave home, entrepreneurs could not build and maintain roads, factories, and the like, etc.  It would be a primitive shithole of a dystopia, which I'm guessing from your username you'd like.

Appealing to authority is not an argument; especially since I'm not Stephan's biggest fan.  He's ok, but nothing special.  Also, if I was a primitivist such as you are accusing me of, then would I even have a computer?  My moniker relates to the fact that I do grow and raise a large portion of my own food; thereby alleviating a dependency on a highly vulnerable system.  I do not find freedom in being completely, helplessly, hopelessly dependent on others.

I think that if people believe in life, liberty, and property then they should accept the responsibility to preserve, protect, and defend their own life, liberty, and property and not be completely dependent others for the preservation, protection, and defense of their own life, liberty, and property.  How can dependence and helplessness equal freedom?  If diesel fuel suddenly goes up to $8/gallon, are you confident that you will still have a job, and even if you do, do you think food will be as readily available as it is now?  This scenario is to indicate dependency on things outside of the individual's control; which is not wise.
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 12:27:00 PM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.

How long can I go on vacation, or off to earn a living, before someone declares me "absentee"?

Are you claiming that the only thing keeping your neighbor from stealing your house is the Judicial system?  That would seem to be the same claim that Statists make with concern to violence in Anarchism; meaning that the only thing preventing massive violence now is the governmental judicial system.
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state hater
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 12:27:41 PM »

Thanks, victim. Wasn't aware it was that diverse.
Absentee ownership? the definition Im finding is that owning land you dont live on. Whats wrong with that? If i pay some people to work it for me, and some people to protect it, isnt it still "mine"  even if i dont have a house on it? or is there less specific definition im not finding?


Suppose that you have 1000 acres and some of it is used as a farm -growing vegetables- and some of it is used to raise animals and such.  You pay people to work the land and you pay people for security.  One day you go to your 1000 acre property and the people you hired to protect it, start shooting at you.

In your search to find a way to own something which you do not want to actually protect yourself, you have just worked to supply others with 1000 acres of land -which they could not afford to purchase, but unlike you- they are willing to defend; and thereby acquire ownership thereof.  Any method one can think of to try and preserve absentee land ownership one succeeds in creating a precursor to government; because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership without actually possession or in-habitation.

I don't consider myself a Left-libertarian, I just do not believe that it would be sustainable in an anarchist 'society' for people to accept absentee ownership; sooner or later, a government/State would be created to force compliance whit absentee ownership.

Molyneux addresses your objections to absentee ownership.  In a society without absentee ownership, one could never leave home, entrepreneurs could not build and maintain roads, factories, and the like, etc.  It would be a primitive shithole of a dystopia, which I'm guessing from your username you'd like.

Appealing to authority is not an argument; especially since I'm not Stephan's biggest fan.  He's ok, but nothing special.  Also, if I was a primitivist such as you are accusing me of, then would I even have a computer?  My moniker relates to the fact that I do grow and raise a large portion of my own food; thereby alleviating a dependency on a highly vulnerable system.  I do not find freedom in being completely, helplessly, hopelessly dependent on others.

I think that if people believe in life, liberty, and property then they should accept the responsibility to preserve, protect, and defend their own life, liberty, and property and not be completely dependent others for the preservation, protection, and defense of their own life, liberty, and property.  How can dependence and helplessness equal freedom?  If diesel fuel suddenly goes up to $8/gallon, are you confident that you will still have a job, and even if you do, do you think food will be as readily available as it is now?  This scenario is to indicate dependency on things outside of the individual's control; which is not wise.

Are you advocating a world wherein everyone is completely self-sufficient?

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Syock
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 12:30:57 PM »

... because both situations require that the general population agree on ones claim of ownership ...

Are you not essentially suggesting democracy?  

Last I checked, we still like contracts.  If I have a contract saying I own something, and another contract saying they work for me, that doesn't mean ownership transfers to them.  

I would have to essentially hire 'scabs' to go do the work the others are suppose to be doing.

The squatters would be committing trespass.  Their attack on me would be attempted murder.  They would then be open to arbitration, or something more violent if they refuse.  Odds are I could send in a defense agency to make them leave with few/no community repercussions such as ostracism.  
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 12:34:34 PM by Syock » Logged

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