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Author Topic: Self Defense vs. Pacifism  (Read 6603 times)
eglove
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« on: September 07, 2013, 09:06:50 PM »

Was FSP right to kick out Cantwell? Is it wrong to speak of self-defense? Or is image and branding more important?

My opinions are here: http://www.anarchocapitalism.us/self-defense-vs-pacifism/
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MAM
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 12:20:53 AM »

They can do whatever they want. Frankly this means that IF I move to NH I will not be joining the FSP. I have no desire to associate with a Guild of Naivete.

Fascists aren't going to go away because we ask them to. They're going to have to be put down. We need to talk about the tactics of this.

If you think the State is going to go away without trying to kill you, you are really fucking stupid.

EDIT: Eventually we're going to have to fight. You know one reason why I'm in no rush to get to NH? Because ultimately the FSP is a waste of time, I thought that before, this just convinced me. At the end of the day do I want to struggle with people who have no integrity? Nope I can struggle right here with people who may not be with me philosophically (they lack knowledge of theory) but there's solidarity here, people have got my back. I don't think the FSP are the kinds of people I want guarding my back. It seems like the pussies have won over there.

I'm interested in Seth's thoughts though. Maybe I'm punch drunk. I'm sick too so maybe that accounts for the aggravation I have at this whole thing. I mean I read the guys shit, and he's not saying anything that isn't true. I mean WTF. Censorship + pussy shit = EPIC FAIL.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 01:26:21 AM by MAM » Logged

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Seth King
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 01:25:10 AM »

I hate to break it to you guys, but if you put 1000 libertarians in a room you're going to end up with some pacifists.

There are plenty here that aren't pacifists.

The FSP is a state corporation. It's a non-profit, so I don't really expect it to do anything other than what it did.

There are A LOT of libertarians that have moved and will move that have not and will not sign the FSP pledge.

That's completely fine by me. The one and only reason for the FSP is to get libertarians to move here. Once you get here it's up to you what you do.

If you're going to let a few board members of the FSP scare you off, well then, you're probably not ready for the big leagues.

Most libertarians have never experienced anything like being a libertarian living in New Hampshire.

One of the things the libertarians in New Hampshire have going for us is that we're not guilty of group think.

You want group think, go back to statism.

We're individualists and our views and tactics differ.

If you can't handle that you don't belong here.
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MAM
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 01:39:00 AM »

Quote
The FSP is a state corporation. It's a non-profit, so I don't really expect it to do anything other than what it did.

This is something I did not know. The FSP is not for me.

Quote
There are A LOT of libertarians that have moved and will move that have not and will not sign the FSP pledge.
Good.

Quote
If you're going to let a few board members of the FSP scare you off, well then, you're probably not ready for the big leagues.
The question is and you have answered does the FSP control activism down there, apparently that's a no. Which is good, just defined who I'm not going to work with.

All I know now is that the FSP is my enemy. I mean seriously a corporation?

It's not about the board members who cares about them? It's about the culture you've got going over there. And if the FSP represents the culture then I really don't see a reason to go, because it's not my culture. But apparantly I've over estimated the importance of the FSP as far as NH activism goes.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 01:41:40 AM by MAM » Logged

"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

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"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 01:43:43 AM »

Honestly now that I know that I can simply ignore the FSP and find people to associate with that I can respect. Life is good.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 02:14:51 AM »

It seems like wanting anything but what other people want is a taboo here. I mean you're up here looking down on me for expressing my thoughts. So yeah...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
eglove
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 08:54:02 AM »

As I said, I will never support a government organization such as the FSP and in the end they are a part of the problem, not the solution.
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Seth King
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 02:10:36 PM »

As I said, I will never support a government organization such as the FSP and in the end they are a part of the problem, not the solution.

It's not a government organization. It is, however, a corporation. Any time you go to the store you're shopping at a corporation.
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MAM
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 04:50:53 PM »

As I said, I will never support a government organization such as the FSP and in the end they are a part of the problem, not the solution.

It's not a government organization. It is, however, a corporation. Any time you go to the store you're shopping at a corporation.


Regardless it's Statists. I'm not opposed to pacifism itself but it's silly and I have no desire to associate with them.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 09:30:36 PM »

MAM, if you don't want to associate yourself with the political leanings of the FSP, have you considered the Blue Ridge Liberty Project in North Carolina? Unlike the political implications of FSP, Blue Ridge is a completely voluntaryist movement that does not get involved in the political system at all. They also advocate peaceful parenting and most of the members are secular.

http://www.blueridgelibertyproject.com/
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SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 09:31:44 PM »

I'm friends with a few of the members on Facebook. They're all cool people.


 Oh, and I forgot to mention that all of them are homesteaders who grow their own food and try to live off the grid as much as possible.
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Syock
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 07:38:04 PM »

The question is and you have answered does the FSP control activism down there, apparently that's a no. Which is good, just defined who I'm not going to work with.

All I know now is that the FSP is my enemy. I mean seriously a corporation?

It's not about the board members who cares about them? It's about the culture you've got going over there. And if the FSP represents the culture then I really don't see a reason to go, because it's not my culture. But apparantly I've over estimated the importance of the FSP as far as NH activism goes.

You do realize they target libertarians, right?  That is a big group including a lot of small government statists.  A lot of FSP members do political activism and even run for state/town government elections.  (Think Ron Swanson from 'Parks and Recreation') 

The fact that they made a non-profit allows them to openly get donations and not pay taxes or risk jail.  That was a personal decision on what risk they wanted to take.  It is a heck of a lot easier to run a non-profit than to run something like Pirate Bay and run away from the place and government you are trying to change. 

You keep having this knee-jerk reaction, but odds are you are not doing anything so publicly that it would put you at serious risk like the FSP could if it was considered organized crime. 
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Disengage
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 08:15:32 PM »

I don't care that they're a corporation.    I have a slight issue with it, but the decision to incorporate is in no way contradictory with the goals of the organization.   As has been stated, the FSP is NOT an "anarchist" or "end the state" group.      Them begging the state for pseudo-personhood for tax and/or "stay out of jail" reasons is in line with what they're trying to do.

I've also never heard it said that the FSP had any goals other than getting people to move.    I don't know where people got the idea that the FSP was guiding or controlling activism, or they they had some kind of "master plan" for people after they move.   I'd have much more of a problem with that than I do with them being incorporated.   Good thing it isn't true.

As for them covering their own asses by disowning someone who advocated defense against state aggression... I can understand it.    I don't agree with it, and I consider it a disappointing and extremely cowardly decision on their part, but I can understand the logic behind it.   I'm also surprised at their lack of spine.   However, it's their organization and they can chose to associate (or not) with whoever they want.      I will do the same.

I think a more meaningful topic of discussion is this knee-jerk reaction against people who might possibly one day even THINK about advocating defensive violence against the state.     I don't think this is a pacifism thing for most people.    This is just straight-up cowardice.    These are people who would have no problem with defensive violence against a mugger, but when that mugger has a badge then they start spinning around on their eyebrows trying to distance themselves from the very idea.     

What, exactly, are they afraid of?    Is that fear justified?
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Seth King
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 08:49:04 PM »

I think there are plenty of people who don't believe in defensive violence against muggers without badges either. Pacifism is a valid ethos.
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MAM
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 08:55:33 PM »

I think there are plenty of people who don't believe in defensive violence against muggers without badges either. Pacifism is a valid ethos.

Show one so hardcore they'd let someone kill them...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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