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Author Topic: What is the largest non-corporate business in the world?  (Read 12249 times)
state hater
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« on: August 28, 2013, 03:44:52 AM »

 There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 07:24:16 AM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Drug cartels - it has to be illegal, because if it is legal, it incorporates to avoid the wrath of the state. 
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 08:21:20 AM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Your question has no place in modernity, due to the State making the incentivizing the corporation.  If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

I suppose if one was paranoid, then they could plausibly claim that it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes.

The funny thing is that the Corporation could not exist without the force of the State protecting it, so if you are in favor of the modern Corporations you are by necessity in favor of the State.  This reality seems to be in conflict with your moniker.

I suppose the real question is: do you prefer modernity more than you prefer freedom?
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state hater
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 11:40:23 AM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Drug cartels - it has to be illegal, because if it is legal, it incorporates to avoid the wrath of the state. 

Aside from that, would it be accurate to say that the largest brick and mortar non-corporate businesses are local mom-and-pop chains worth perhaps in the low tens of millions of FRNs?
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 11:42:50 AM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Your question has no place in modernity, due to the State making the incentivizing the corporation.  If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

I suppose if one was paranoid, then they could plausibly claim that it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes.

The funny thing is that the Corporation could not exist without the force of the State protecting it, so if you are in favor of the modern Corporations you are by necessity in favor of the State.  This reality seems to be in conflict with your moniker.

I suppose the real question is: do you prefer modernity more than you prefer freedom?

If you read my post completely and had no interest in making hostile, unfounded accusations, then you would see that the intent of my post is the diametric opposite of what you falsely accused me of.  When I clearly state that I am looking for examples as a proof of concept that large non-corporate businesses can exist in order to show that a stateless society can have that which we are familiar with (large businesses), it should be clear that I am doing the opposite of trying to show that ancap is incompatible with modernity.  If nothing else, the burning Masonic rag in my avatar should have given you a clue that I hate governments and want to find a way to enjoy modernity without them.

It is illogical to be an anarchist and behave like a politician.
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 12:20:47 PM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Your question has no place in modernity, due to the State making the incentivizing the corporation.  If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

I suppose if one was paranoid, then they could plausibly claim that it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes.

The funny thing is that the Corporation could not exist without the force of the State protecting it, so if you are in favor of the modern Corporations you are by necessity in favor of the State.  This reality seems to be in conflict with your moniker.

I suppose the real question is: do you prefer modernity more than you prefer freedom?

If you read my post completely and had no interest in making hostile, unfounded accusations, then you would see that the intent of my post is the diametric opposite of what you falsely accused me of.  When I clearly state that I am looking for examples as a proof of concept that large non-corporate businesses can exist in order to show that a stateless society can have that which we are familiar with (large businesses), it should be clear that I am doing the opposite of trying to show that ancap is incompatible with modernity.  If nothing else, the burning Masonic rag in my avatar should have given you a clue that I hate governments and want to find a way to enjoy modernity without them.

It is illogical to be an anarchist and behave like a politician.

You never answered this question: If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

If you know that the State protects corporations then why would someone not incorporate?  Why would one leave their business overexposed in comparison to their competitor?

You apparently didn't read what I wrote carefully enough or you are paranoid of reality, because I never made an accusation.

You also didn't answer this question: do you prefer modernity or freedom?
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kunkmiester
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 02:46:40 PM »

I got a pretty good implied accusation there.

I did a quick google, and the potential sources I found would need to be paid for--nothing free to the public yet.  I'll ask at the library, see if someone can help, but that's something you might do yourself.

It would also probably be good to look historically.  The modern corporation IIRC was an artifact of the 1800s and the railroads, before that limited liability as we know it was extremely rare.  There are probably historic examples of what your looking for that might fit better than modern examples.

Most small businesses incorporate for tax purposes, not so much for liability.  Without a state, there's less incentive for that.  Large corporations also use bureaucracy as a weapon against smaller competitors, but without the state for the laws that require that bureaucracy, there's actually a maximum size before it drags a company down enough that smaller competitors overwhelm it.
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 03:14:09 PM »

Quote
then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?
Agorists.
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 03:39:43 PM »

Quote
then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?
Agorists.

I hate to break it to you but an Agorist company isn't going to be even close to the type of "largest non-corporate business in the world," which the OP was referring to; this is the real world and not "Alongside Night."  I figured we all would be operating based on the original question.  As far as the largest Agorists businesses, they would be Drug Cartels -as Syock- pointed out, Gun traffickers, and Human Traffickers.
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state hater
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »

There has been a lot of discussion about corporations here, with some consensus that corporations, in the sense that is commonly understood (creations of the state that are granted limited liability and other favors), have no place in a free society.  With that in mind, I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets) so that I can better visualize a stateless society that has large non-corporate businesses.

Your question has no place in modernity, due to the State making the incentivizing the corporation.  If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

I suppose if one was paranoid, then they could plausibly claim that it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes.

The funny thing is that the Corporation could not exist without the force of the State protecting it, so if you are in favor of the modern Corporations you are by necessity in favor of the State.  This reality seems to be in conflict with your moniker.

I suppose the real question is: do you prefer modernity more than you prefer freedom?

If you read my post completely and had no interest in making hostile, unfounded accusations, then you would see that the intent of my post is the diametric opposite of what you falsely accused me of.  When I clearly state that I am looking for examples as a proof of concept that large non-corporate businesses can exist in order to show that a stateless society can have that which we are familiar with (large businesses), it should be clear that I am doing the opposite of trying to show that ancap is incompatible with modernity.  If nothing else, the burning Masonic rag in my avatar should have given you a clue that I hate governments and want to find a way to enjoy modernity without them.

It is illogical to be an anarchist and behave like a politician.

You never answered this question: If incorporating could protect the business, the CEO, and any Board Of Directors, then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?

Why don't you ask the businesses that have not incorporated?

Quote
If you know that the State protects corporations then why would someone not incorporate?  Why would one leave their business overexposed in comparison to their competitor?

These questions are irrelevant to my question.  I am concerned with a simple piece of data, not armchair reasoning.

Quote
You apparently didn't read what I wrote carefully enough or you are paranoid of reality, because I never made an accusation.

"it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes."

Quote
You also didn't answer this question: do you prefer modernity or freedom?

You did not make it clear whether "you" refers to me or to anyone in general.

As a non-consequentialist, I prefer freedom.
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 06:46:26 PM »

Quote
then who do you think would really operate a business without incorporating, especially in a climate where everybody else has incorporated?
Agorists.

I hate to break it to you but an Agorist company isn't going to be even close to the type of "largest non-corporate business in the world," which the OP was referring to; this is the real world and not "Alongside Night."  I figured we all would be operating based on the original question.  As far as the largest Agorists businesses, they would be Drug Cartels -as Syock- pointed out, Gun traffickers, and Human Traffickers.

Could you give me an example of a business that is neither agorist or corporate?
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Two Zombies and a Sheriff
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 10:48:49 PM »

@ State Hater
 Didn't you take this quote out of context?
Quote
"it would seem that you were looking for an answer saying that there isn't a large non-corporation and therefore you could claim that the existence of the State is good, because without the State we wouldn't have the aspects of modernity which everybody utilizes."

I would think so, considering that I actually wrote:
Quote
I suppose if one was paranoid, then they could plausibly claim that it would seem...

Quote
Quote
If you know that the State protects corporations then why would someone not incorporate?  Why would one leave their business overexposed in comparison to their competitor?
These questions are irrelevant to my question.  I am concerned with a simple piece of data, not armchair reasoning.
  Actually the questions I asked weren't irrelevant.  You are asking for an example of something occurring today -
Quote
I am curious about the identity of the world's largest non-corporate business (in terms of assets)
- which is actually very small due to the interference of the State, and therefore you can't possibly visualize what things would look like without the State by looking at what the current largest non-corporate business is.

If you were really serious then you would look to history, back to before the State got so involved with these matters.  At one time the individual States had to issue a corporate charter, and it expired in a maximum of 20 years.  Getting the charter itself was difficult, and retaining it after the expiration was also difficult; none of these things even matter today.  The main difference would be that companies wouldn't over leverage themselves because they would, technically, be able to be sued out of business.  Also, the CEO and other Executives as well as the Board of Directors and Preferred Shareholders would, technically, be able to be sued with no limit; unlike today.  Things wouldn't likely be constantly in a state of change, however, when things would change the changes would be significant, unlike today.


Quote
As a non-consequentialist, I prefer freedom.
  So then it really doesn't matter what the business world would look like in the absence of a State, does it?    So then, your initial question is pointless.  As long as you are free to pursue your interests unfettered, then what would it matter what the business climate looks like?

@MAM

While I could give you an example of a business that is neither agorist or corporate, however, I wouldn't want to do your work for you.  I'll tell you what; determine the qualifiers which a makeup an agorist business, then determine the qualifiers which makeup a corporation, then find the difference between the two, and when you have that you should look around you when you go to town; you should, therefore, be able to find your own examples of non-agorist non-corporate businesses.
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 11:12:35 PM »

Quote
While I could give you an example of a business that is neither agorist or corporate, however, I wouldn't want to do your work for you.  I'll tell you what; determine the qualifiers which a makeup an agorist business, then determine the qualifiers which makeup a corporation, then find the difference between the two, and when you have that you should look around you when you go to town; you should, therefore, be able to find your own examples of non-agorist non-corporate businesses.

A corporation is a business that has joined organized crime. An agorist business is a business operating without license, not paying taxes, and one that doesn't initiate coercion. A corporation by joining the State defiles itself. The Drug Cartels aren't agorist they're statist, because using coercion is what makes a State a State.
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Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 06:57:57 AM »

Quote
While I could give you an example of a business that is neither agorist or corporate, however, I wouldn't want to do your work for you.  I'll tell you what; determine the qualifiers which a makeup an agorist business, then determine the qualifiers which makeup a corporation, then find the difference between the two, and when you have that you should look around you when you go to town; you should, therefore, be able to find your own examples of non-agorist non-corporate businesses.

A corporation is a business that has joined organized crime. An agorist business is a business operating without license, not paying taxes, and one that doesn't initiate coercion. A corporation by joining the State defiles itself. The Drug Cartels aren't agorist they're statist, because using coercion is what makes a State a State.

Your definition of corporation is ridiculous.  First you say a corporation is a business which has joined organized crime aka government, and then you say that corporation's -which are businesses which joined the state- have defiled themselves by joining the state.  Why or how would a business join the state twice?

Do drug dealers force you to buy their product?  The only force they use is a direct result of the force used against them by the State.  Agorism isn't pacifism; agorists do have the ability to legitimately use force in defense and retaliation.  Since all of the force or coercion used by the Drug cartels can be directly attributed to the absolute use of force used against them by government then it is legitimate; it is a War, if you didn't know.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 10:56:00 AM »

As I said before I do not understand the paranoia about corporations being  criminal organization because they register with the state. Not any more so than any registered voter or taxpayer or drivers license holder or doctor or lawyer or accountant or shop owner or just about anybody else. We don't want to be registered but we have to.But I guess I am not going to convince anybody here about my views and that is not what State Hater wanted to know.

He wanted to be able to visualize a stateless society by examining examples.

Well what some other pointed out is you will not be able to use current conditions to make that visualization. Just like you could not use examples of prosperous Jews under Hitler or what a state would look like if there were no drug laws. (Even in Portugal and the Netherlands there are still drug laws.) Drug cartels are a bad example because they only exist because there are drug laws.

You would have to go back in history to the days when homesteading farmers answered to nobody or to the wild west before the west became incorporated in the state.
Apparently there are examples in old Iceland and Ireland histories.
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