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Author Topic: I just want to know why...  (Read 7549 times)
State-God
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2013, 07:29:06 PM »

I'm defining market socialism, as socialism within the framework of a voluntary society. Perhaps a world wherein the vast majority of firms are co-ops with the workers being the owners. A hypothetical world where maybe horizontally organized firms are able to out compete vertically organized firms.

Then no, it'd fit well within a market framework (barring questions of if it would even happen, of course).

Mind, the main reason I went on about Capitalism over Socialism is that, at least from what I understood, aonl is in more or less complete opposition to Capitalism, not seeming to understand that Socialism can exist with a Capitalist framework but generally not vice versa.

Something that I find interesting is the idea of the Labour Note. An alternative currency based on the labour of an individual. This has actually been implemented by AnCaps in NH the "Jesse" Note if I remember correctly basically the man Jesse would trade in the Notes the individual possessing the Note could then call upon Jesse to work for them for the given time on the Note. An interesting mutualist idea that.

That's basically what currency is, though. Currency says "I have contributed an amount of goods and services to the economy (and therefore a portion of my labor time) of this amount."
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2013, 07:40:44 PM »

Well a striking difference is that the Labour Note doesn't allow for specialization, if one is trading in it directly. It does however allow an individual a certain amount of credit.

Essentially being "free" credit. As opposed to the wealth already generated, the party accepting the Labour Note as to trust the individual, who not have assets that can be seized if he defaults.

If the Labour Note was that of a specialist it would use alot of it's versatility... Interesting to think about.

I ran into a guy who was saying that all money was was life. You got payed for the amount of your life you spent working on X. The thing is given division of labour this can scale, and do so quickly. Furthermore what if you invested in say a gumball machine and then hired someone to check it. So essentially you got payed for a one time deal for the rest of your life. Interesting to think about.
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2013, 09:00:52 PM »

I ran into a guy who was saying that all money was was life.

The best description I have heard of money:

"Money is the product of helping people."  The more mutually beneficial exchanges you do, the more you help others, and the result is more money in your pocket.  Economics is not a zero sum game. 
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oooorgle
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2013, 10:49:48 PM »

You have control over what to do with your jeans, even if you shit in them and sit in it. But then you are saying you should be told what to do with your shit?
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State-God
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 09:42:46 AM »

I hope we didn't scare another one off o_o
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 10:56:04 AM »

Maybe what I've seen/been subjected to is the abuse of capitalism. I'm not calling anyone here a scumbag. I also don't see the value of selfishness in any form.

Every single person in the world is selfish.

Mother Teresa. She could not stand the fact that small children are starving (or whatever, i dont really know much about her, just using as example), that felling made her fell unhappy. She wanted to not fell that way, therefore she was selfish. Yet, its a safe assumption that her selfishness saved a lot of life's.

Albert Einstein. What do you think made this guy do what he did? He wanted the sense of importance. He was curious. His selfishness made him discover a lot of great things.

Bill Gates is/was ridiculously greedy. Yet his selfishness is now making it available for me and you to talk from two different locations.




What capitalism allows is to make the selfishness work towards prosperity. There will always be people that don't want anything in life, and there will always be people that will want the most out of life. Capitalism allows the people that want most out of life to operate easily. It also give them a frame work.



The only reason that the idea of property has come to be valued is selfishness.

You are 100% right.

I don't want to fight for a bed each night, so I will push for the right to earn and own one.
I don't want the rich to hold all the money, so I will let them own property, so that they can put the money back in economy so that I can make some.

If I am rich+greedy I want to make more money. The only way I can do it is by exchanging my money for property, allowing the money to go back into economy to be earned by others or to earn it myself once more.

Anyone's wealth (net worth) is limitless but the money in the world is not. Rich people want to be richer so they invest in companies. Think about google or any other company that making your life easier. Selfishness made it happen. 


Game of thrones. Lots of ridiculously rich individuals and their families. They have no investment opportunities, so to keep their success going they put their money back into economy by hiring armies to fight other armies and maybe become more powerful.


I'd gladly share my computer with you if you if you were without, I'd gladly prepare you a meal if you were hungry, I'd happily lend you a hand if you were struggling to accomplish a goal like feeding yourself or staying warm in frigid times.


The only reason you would do it is selfishness. You don't want to fell bad for me, so you help me.
Selfishness = happiness. If you don't like your GF anymore or she is mean to you in some way, you brake up with her, even thought it might hurt her feelings.


My life goal is to be worth 1bn$+. I am greedy. I'm very selfish. But that's not the reason I want to make a lot of money. I know if I make a lot of money, following my own rules not the government ones, I will make the world a better place.


There are places in the world where people wake up in a box, wash their face in rain water. In other places they eat their own children. In some places they freeze to death. There are places where if you get an infection in your leg you get your leg amputated within a month. There is places in the world where life by default is shit.

Yet, in other places life by default is good. Places where people complain about the most stupid shit ever, places where if a random question pops into your mind you can pull out your smartphone and google it. How can anyone who is looking for truth not see why capitalism works is beyond me.


What makes capitalism bad is the fact that its regulated.
If I as entrepreneur pay 40% of my income in taxes I don't have time to worry about whats ethical and whats not, I have to run a business. The govermant says its legal to do X so I do it, no matter how unethical it is. My customers knows its legal so they are ok with it. There is no place for ethic in regulated capitalism, therefore you have the bad view on capitalism in general.

If I pay no taxes I still need a frame work in my actions, same for my customers. If there is no government there is no frame work, people act on their own ethical beliefs. If I am very greedy in anarchistic society I cannot do things considered unethical by my customers.




Another very important thing that people forget is that we are all going to die. Why do you care if I'm insecure and so I want to be richer than 99.9% of the population? Even if i'm ridiculously rich, I will die one day. I cannot take that money or resources with me to the grave. So why can't we let the people to whom the money is so important to have it? The only reason is envy. And envy is not truly looking for truth.
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ff42
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »

Why would we want to sustain capitalism? Isn't it founded on the idea of taking what you can without regard for how it hurts anyone else? Why would a system of interpersonal relationships founded on placing yourself above others be desirable? The question I'm asking isn't how it would work, rather why would anyone want it to? If you live life trying to control resources doesn't that ultimately lead to warring with people who could otherwise enrich your life and edify the community? Maybe I'm just misguided. If I am please enlighten me.

One of your points is that you would share what you have with others - that's generally considered an admirable quality.  Would you like to maximize the amount of things you can share with others?  Economics shows us that we can maximize resources by specialization and those that participate in voluntary trade have the most stuff (to trade or share or whatever).
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Skadi
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2013, 01:05:58 AM »

Maybe what I've seen/been subjected to is the abuse of capitalism. I'm not calling anyone here a scumbag. I also don't see the value of selfishness in any form. The only reason that the idea of property has come to be valued is selfishness. I'd gladly share my computer with you if you if you were without, I'd gladly prepare you a meal if you were hungry, I'd happily lend you a hand if you were struggling to accomplish a goal like feeding yourself or staying warm in frigid times. Isn't bettering the community as good an incentive to do well as placing your yourself in an advantageous position?

Capitalism is not opposed to charity, in fact some of the wealthiest men alive and greatest benefits of capitalism are also great humanitarians. the thing is choice, in capitalism you have the choice to help your neighbor where as in communism you and your neighbor are forced to share equally, regardless of your individual skill or effort.

Communism in reality does not create some gleaming Utopia, but has failed in every instance. The former communist nations of the eastern block were overthrown by the common people they claimed to be working for and the worlds remaining communist countries are among the poorest countries in the world. The only economically powerful communist state is China, who daily becomes MORE capitalist.
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FreeBornAngel
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »

Aonl, if you could live in a world that allowed you to get what you need at the store in return for 25 years of 'socially responsible' work, would you be willing to forgo your support of the current system?
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