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Author Topic: Viability of purchasing Sovereignty  (Read 40058 times)
State-God
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2013, 11:26:00 PM »

@ Agrarian_Agorist:

I don't expect them to just "let" voluntaryism happen. I'm talking about the endgame. Once the foothold is established, it's a race to secure it, attract people to it, and set up defenses. It's done as quietly as possible. By the time governments decide to fuck with it, it's too late. The ancaps get in a good enough position to make their porcupine-like stand, defensively threatening to fight back against anyone who interferes. Some tool of deterrence will be needed, but it's possible. But we're not anywhere close to being ready for this. Even if I had a strip of land to call ancapistan, I haven't made enough connections with people to be able to settle on it and defend it. Over time, technological advances will give us more ways to even the playing field and enable small groups to defend themselves. Once we're there, we get a nice libertarian billionaire sponsor to help us out, and then the porcupines make their stand. It's totally possible, and maybe even in my lifetime, but not till I'm much older. If it wasn't for a couple hundred years I wouldn't be surprised though. But I'll stick to the argument that it's DEFINITELY possible.

Get a nuke, no one fucks with people that have nukes.

They -do- fuck with people trying to get them, though -_-
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 11:34:52 PM »

@ Agrarian_Agorist:

I don't expect them to just "let" voluntaryism happen. I'm talking about the endgame. Once the foothold is established, it's a race to secure it, attract people to it, and set up defenses. It's done as quietly as possible. By the time governments decide to fuck with it, it's too late. The ancaps get in a good enough position to make their porcupine-like stand, defensively threatening to fight back against anyone who interferes. Some tool of deterrence will be needed, but it's possible. But we're not anywhere close to being ready for this. Even if I had a strip of land to call ancapistan, I haven't made enough connections with people to be able to settle on it and defend it. Over time, technological advances will give us more ways to even the playing field and enable small groups to defend themselves. Once we're there, we get a nice libertarian billionaire sponsor to help us out, and then the porcupines make their stand. It's totally possible, and maybe even in my lifetime, but not till I'm much older. If it wasn't for a couple hundred years I wouldn't be surprised though. But I'll stick to the argument that it's DEFINITELY possible.

Get a nuke, no one fucks with people that have nukes.

They -do- fuck with people trying to get them, though -_-

This is true. Go to one of the former Soviet Bloc countries pick up for a few mil.
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 11:36:54 PM »

There are a lot of things that need to fall into place...

Crucial:
-Some piece of land, that we "legitimately" own (that is, buy from a government)
-Some method of deterrence, that can be put in place almost immediately
-A good number of people, especially those with wealth and technical skills.

Helpful:
-Neighboring countries that have populations that are "soft" (think Western Europe) and less like the US (militaristic and fascistic, even the so-called left....just look at Obama). That way we can play nice with the media and paint ourselves as good neighbors, and try to make it politically costly and unpopular to mess with us. The less warlike the population is, the harder it is for the state to get away with fighting us. Being near the US is bad, because the people here are more vicious. The anti-war left is nonexistent when their great king is out bombing people. That's exactly the type of neighbor we don't want.
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 11:40:12 PM »

There are a lot of things that need to fall into place...

Crucial:
-Some piece of land, that we "legitimately" own (that is, buy from a government)
-Some method of deterrence, that can be put in place almost immediately
-A good number of people, especially those with wealth and technical skills.

Helpful:
-Neighboring countries that have populations that are "soft" (think Western Europe) and less like the US (militaristic and fascistic, even the so-called left....just look at Obama). That way we can play nice with the media and paint ourselves as good neighbors, and try to make it politically costly and unpopular to mess with us. The less warlike the population is, the harder it is for the state to get away with fighting us. Being near the US is bad, because the people here are more vicious. The anti-war left is nonexistent when their great king is out bombing people. That's exactly the type of neighbor we don't want.

I hear Italy is having problems with inflation...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

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"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 11:46:31 PM »

There are a lot of things that need to fall into place...

Crucial:
-Some piece of land, that we "legitimately" own (that is, buy from a government)
-Some method of deterrence, that can be put in place almost immediately
-A good number of people, especially those with wealth and technical skills.

Helpful:
-Neighboring countries that have populations that are "soft" (think Western Europe) and less like the US (militaristic and fascistic, even the so-called left....just look at Obama). That way we can play nice with the media and paint ourselves as good neighbors, and try to make it politically costly and unpopular to mess with us. The less warlike the population is, the harder it is for the state to get away with fighting us. Being near the US is bad, because the people here are more vicious. The anti-war left is nonexistent when their great king is out bombing people. That's exactly the type of neighbor we don't want.

I hear Italy is having problems with inflation...
Exactly. Governments are destructive and have problems. They almost all have land that they claim but don't use. I'm not saying now is the time to make the move, but I'm saying this piece of the puzzle is not the hardest part to solve. It's getting them all together at once that's tricky. If any part is missing, ancaps lose.
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2013, 10:46:12 AM »

When deciding on land one should not forget that freshwater is very importanthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_water; it makes up 1% or less of the world's water.  Here is a map of the world's freshwater resources.  The only other option would be to use salt-water and extract the salt -by one method or another.

Another very important item which would be required is communications.  If Ancapistan were to rely on satellite communication then the communication would be susceptible to outside interference; I'm not just talking about inside Ancapistan, but communication with the outside world.

Another thing which should be considered is, Allies.  Ancapistan would most-likely not be on the US's Christmas Card list, so that would leave little in the way of potential allies -with the exception of others which AnCaps don't really approve of.  Ancapistan would definitely need some allies.

Another thing would be to decide if Ancapistan would be better off being landlocked, have a coast, or be an island.  There are pros and cons to each of the possibilities, so that should be figured into where to look for land also.

Also, one could look into a long term lease of the land.  It wouldn't actually have to be owned outright; this would probably make it easier to find a place.  Obviously the terms of the lease would have to be such that Ancapistan could be Ancapistan, and that Ancapistan would essentially make it's own rules with the host country giving-up rights to impose rules and regulations onto Ancapistan.

Also, I don't really think a billionaire would be necessary nor do I think one would be found to help all that much with this project.  For if they did, then they would be black-balled by TPTB; I don't think many billionaires would be willing to risk everything on Ancapistan until it was already functioning -then a billionaire may be willing, but I would still highly doubt it.
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2013, 02:27:55 PM »

@ Agrarian_Agorist:

I don't expect them to just "let" voluntaryism happen. I'm talking about the endgame. Once the foothold is established, it's a race to secure it, attract people to it, and set up defenses. It's done as quietly as possible. By the time governments decide to fuck with it, it's too late. The ancaps get in a good enough position to make their porcupine-like stand, defensively threatening to fight back against anyone who interferes. Some tool of deterrence will be needed, but it's possible. But we're not anywhere close to being ready for this. Even if I had a strip of land to call ancapistan, I haven't made enough connections with people to be able to settle on it and defend it. Over time, technological advances will give us more ways to even the playing field and enable small groups to defend themselves. Once we're there, we get a nice libertarian billionaire sponsor to help us out, and then the porcupines make their stand. It's totally possible, and maybe even in my lifetime, but not till I'm much older. If it wasn't for a couple hundred years I wouldn't be surprised though. But I'll stick to the argument that it's DEFINITELY possible.

Do you really think that you would be able to purchase or lease land to make Ancapistan and outside governments wouldn't know about it?  You would need to spread the word to get people to finance and populate Ancapistan; and in doing so the other governments will know and prevent it from happening.  There will be no way of keeping it secret while simultaneously procuring everything needed, resources and people, for Ancapistan to survive and thrive.  So, there is no start, let alone "until it gets a foothold;" because they won't let it get a foothold. 

If you wanted it to happen then most things would have to be ready to go at the drop of a hat.  Meaning that defence system would have to have been designed tested and built in advance of populating Ancapistan.  The other countries will never give a Voluntaryist society a chance to build those things organically; so they must be build before hand.

Also, I wouldn't count on any billionaire(s) sticking his or her neck out too far for this idea; they would stand to lose way more than anybody else does when the world governments turn on the idea.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2013, 09:41:03 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 10:38:48 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.

Why would you bother with another pseudonym?

EDIT: If you're going to put it up somewhere and hope that it gets linked here what exactly is the other pseudonym doing for you? I guess we won't know that it was your creation I'm just not seeing what the anonymity accomplishes. Unless you're worried that someone might be able to figure out who you are with it...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 11:23:56 PM by MAM » Logged

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"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 11:32:34 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.

Why would you bother with another pseudonym?
Posting under a pseudonym on a forum does not give you much anonymity. There are certain things I will not say in a place like this. I would need to find a way to release the information in a way that would make it 100% impossible to trace back to me. The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here... but the details, not so much.
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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2013, 04:10:34 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.

Why would you bother with another pseudonym?
Posting under a pseudonym on a forum does not give you much anonymity. There are certain things I will not say in a place like this. I would need to find a way to release the information in a way that would make it 100% impossible to trace back to me. The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here... but the details, not so much.

Quote
The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here
[/b] However, you haven't provided an actual outline; you've just said that it is possible, which is itself not an outline.  If you are talking about saying somethings which would be needed as being an outline, well that is not an outline either it is just a list.

I do not believe it is possible, and I have indicated why -external influences which desire for no Voluntaryist-type society to exist.  I have also stated what I think would be needed to make it possible.   Given this, I believe that it would prove to be impossible to overcome the external influences due to time constraints and materials needed in advance.  I believe it would require organizing the likes of which Anarcho-Capitalists/Voluntaryists have never seen before; and it would require centralized authority to oversee it -both of these items are anathema to the entire concept of Anarcho-Capitalism and Voluntaryism, making it an even greater reason as to why Ancapistan would never go anywhere.
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2013, 04:25:27 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.

Why would you bother with another pseudonym?
Posting under a pseudonym on a forum does not give you much anonymity. There are certain things I will not say in a place like this. I would need to find a way to release the information in a way that would make it 100% impossible to trace back to me. The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here... but the details, not so much.

Quote
The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here
[/b] However, you haven't provided an actual outline; you've just said that it is possible, which is itself not an outline.  If you are talking about saying somethings which would be needed as being an outline, well that is not an outline either it is just a list.

I do not believe it is possible, and I have indicated why -external influences which desire for no Voluntaryist-type society to exist.  I have also stated what I think would be needed to make it possible.   Given this, I believe that it would prove to be impossible to overcome the external influences due to time constraints and materials needed in advance.  I believe it would require organizing the likes of which Anarcho-Capitalists/Voluntaryists have never seen before; and it would require centralized authority to oversee it -both of these items are anathema to the entire concept of Anarcho-Capitalism and Voluntaryism, making it an even greater reason as to why Ancapistan would never go anywhere.


So what is your plan? Do you have any ideas as to how AnCap can actually be achieved? Seems like a lot of people like to shotgun quarterback and spend so much time doing so that actually achieving a free society is never going to happen. The main reason why I don't think AnCap Society is ever going to happen is because there is no centralized authority everyone myself included just runs around like chickens with there head cut off and nothing ever gets accomplished.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2013, 05:34:05 PM »

I actually have some tricky ideas that would allow us to have a lot of these things before ever purchasing the land. So the "quiet" part isn't crucial. It's all about doing things atomically. I won't release those ideas here though. Maybe I'll release them somewhere else under another pseudonym and hope it gets linked here at some point! It's definitely doable, and I'd love to prove you wrong.

Why would you bother with another pseudonym?
Posting under a pseudonym on a forum does not give you much anonymity. There are certain things I will not say in a place like this. I would need to find a way to release the information in a way that would make it 100% impossible to trace back to me. The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here... but the details, not so much.

Quote
The outline for how a future civilization might establish and defend ancapistan is bland enough that I'm comfortable posting it here
[/b] However, you haven't provided an actual outline; you've just said that it is possible, which is itself not an outline.  If you are talking about saying somethings which would be needed as being an outline, well that is not an outline either it is just a list.

I do not believe it is possible, and I have indicated why -external influences which desire for no Voluntaryist-type society to exist.  I have also stated what I think would be needed to make it possible.   Given this, I believe that it would prove to be impossible to overcome the external influences due to time constraints and materials needed in advance.  I believe it would require organizing the likes of which Anarcho-Capitalists/Voluntaryists have never seen before; and it would require centralized authority to oversee it -both of these items are anathema to the entire concept of Anarcho-Capitalism and Voluntaryism, making it an even greater reason as to why Ancapistan would never go anywhere.


So what is your plan? Do you have any ideas as to how AnCap can actually be achieved? Seems like a lot of people like to shotgun quarterback and spend so much time doing so that actually achieving a free society is never going to happen. The main reason why I don't think AnCap Society is ever going to happen is because there is no centralized authority everyone myself included just runs around like chickens with there head cut off and nothing ever gets accomplished.

I do have a plan for everything, but the most important thing, which is how to prevent other governments from interfering with Ancapistan like they had done with Somalia.  If that could be figured out, then the entire thing would be a breeze including where to get the land.  As you have mentioned, the lack of any type of authority would end this campaign before it even started because some one or some entity(a council or something) would need to oversee the progress.

I also, think that as far as land goes it would be better to have at least one port -so some water access would be preferable.  I would advise against an island, because it could easily be surrounded.  I would also advise against being landlocked because that would make Ancapistan dependent on the countries with water access for not only shipping via sea but also shipping via air.  If Ancapistan had its own port or coastal region then it wouldn't have to need necessarily to transport anything over land not owned or leased by Ancapistan as well as not needing to fly over land not owned or leased by Ancapistan; this will reduce possible disputes between neighbours -and disputes with neighbours is not what Ancapistan would want.

The problem with the defences would be that, Ancapistan would probably suffer negative Propaganda throughout the world, building anti-Ancapistan sentiment.  The method of attack would probably be by ICBM or Cruise Missile or something of that nature.  The least likely method of attack would be with ground troops.  So, Ancapistan would need some-kind of missile defence shield to protect itself.  Without the defence being figured out, then the entire project would be futile.

I am definitely all ears if someone can prevent missiles from wiping-out Ancapistan; but I really don't see that a as a possibility at the moment.
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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2013, 05:53:17 PM »

Like I keep saying you don't need a defence grid if you have a couple nukes. The threat of nuclear retaliation would be enough of a deterrent that I would be willing to bet no one would mess with AnCapistan.  As far antimissile defence systems go they already exist though they are very expensive, but if we have the money to buy the land to make Ancapistan then we probably have the money to buy the defence system.

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"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2013, 06:26:56 PM »

Like I keep saying you don't need a defence grid if you have a couple nukes. The threat of nuclear retaliation would be enough of a deterrent that I would be willing to bet no one would mess with AnCapistan.  As far antimissile defence systems go they already exist though they are very expensive, but if we have the money to buy the land to make Ancapistan then we probably have the money to buy the defence system.



Nukes would be far more difficult to get then you assume.  The former soviet block sold them, however, most were sold under government authority.  No government would sell a future Ancapistan any nukes, because Ancapistan would prove that governments are not necessary; no government wants their people realizing that government is not necessary.

If I had $5 bil I could buy a place to create Ancapistan, or I could buy a partial defence shield, but I couldn't buy both.  Assuming because a group of people could buy land to create Ancapistan means that they could buy a missile defence shield also is illogical; maybe they spent too much money of the land and they couldn't purchase the shield.

Also, just because one has land to setup Ancapistan doesn't mean that it would be able to retaliate after an attack; maybe all of Ancapistan got wiped-out, then wither Ancapistan had a nuke or not would be meaningless, because nobody would be around to use it in retaliation.

You have actually not solved -or even hinted at a viable solution to- any problem whatsoever about the defensive needs of a potential Ancapistan.
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