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Author Topic: Viability of purchasing Sovereignty  (Read 40672 times)
MAM
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« on: March 10, 2013, 09:42:04 PM »

One of the recuring themes I've seen throughout the anarchist circles is the idea of getting some territory where anarchists are the majority and securing this area from the State. The FSP is an example though it is minarchist not anarchist, the FSP aims to show the viability of it's ideals by demonstrating them on a small scale in NH. Seasteads are another example.

My question is simply is it even possible to purchase sovereignty? I know that countries are formed everyday buy I would be surprised if these didn't arise out of violence which is something that few anarchists even acknowledge as legitimate it seems and fewer still are actually willing to get. The point is that this leaves with one other alternative, purchasing land from a State is it even possible to do this? I'm not talking about the cost prohibitive nature of something like this I want to know if "we" had the funds could it happen. I'm not a lawyer and I have no idea where I would even look in a law library for this info, so even if you don't the answer just telling me where to look would be appreciated.
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 10:05:00 PM »

All land purchases I know of were done through the existing "legitimacy" of a government. 

My bet is a government would probably laugh at the idea of selling sovereign land to a company or individual, take your money, and then claim it to still be theirs.  That is not to say that all governments would behave that way, but the big ones probably would.  Maybe some poor government would take such a deal though. 
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MAM
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 10:11:54 PM »

All land purchases I know of were done through the existing "legitimacy" of a government. 

My bet is a government would probably laugh at the idea of selling sovereign land to a company or individual, take your money, and then claim it to still be theirs.  That is not to say that all governments would behave that way, but the big ones probably would.  Maybe some poor government would take such a deal though. 

Yeah this was my thought as well. All we need is a chance, but how are we going to get it? That's the thing...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

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Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 10:22:00 PM »

All land purchases I know of were done through the existing "legitimacy" of a government. 

My bet is a government would probably laugh at the idea of selling sovereign land to a company or individual, take your money, and then claim it to still be theirs.  That is not to say that all governments would behave that way, but the big ones probably would.  Maybe some poor government would take such a deal though. 

Yeah this was my thought as well. All we need is a chance, but how are we going to get it? That's the thing...
Somalia?
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 10:27:20 PM »

All land purchases I know of were done through the existing "legitimacy" of a government.  

My bet is a government would probably laugh at the idea of selling sovereign land to a company or individual, take your money, and then claim it to still be theirs.  That is not to say that all governments would behave that way, but the big ones probably would.  Maybe some poor government would take such a deal though.  

Yeah this was my thought as well. All we need is a chance, but how are we going to get it? That's the thing...
Somalia?

I keep hearing shit about Somalia. What exactly is it with Somalia? I mean the US has been fucking with that country for so long that I doubt it had a chance to be anything but a failure.

EDIT: I realize that I may have come off as a dick and I apologize. I'm just not sure why people are talking about Somalia like it was an anarchist haven because I don't think it was ever anything but a pawn in some sick Statist game.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 10:32:59 PM by MAM » Logged

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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 11:32:23 PM »

Purchasing land (if we had the money) is totally viable, it just depends on the country. Once we've achieved miniature Ancapistan, we set up shop and never let go. It's defending THAT area where you make a stand. Once we have an ancap foothold, we resist takeover, by all means necessary. That is the "right time" in my opinion. If defenses could be procured, that place has the potential (regardless of location) to be mighty profitable.
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 11:39:49 PM »

Purchasing land (if we had the money) is totally viable, it just depends on the country. Once we've achieved miniature Ancapistan, we set up shop and never let go. It's defending THAT area where you make a stand. Once we have an ancap foothold, we resist takeover, by all means necessary. That is the "right time" in my opinion. If defenses could be procured, that place has the potential (regardless of location) to be mighty profitable.

Is there a precedent for this?
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 11:54:49 PM »

Purchasing land (if we had the money) is totally viable, it just depends on the country. Once we've achieved miniature Ancapistan, we set up shop and never let go. It's defending THAT area where you make a stand. Once we have an ancap foothold, we resist takeover, by all means necessary. That is the "right time" in my opinion. If defenses could be procured, that place has the potential (regardless of location) to be mighty profitable.

Is there a precedent for this?
Can't say I know. Some guy bought an ocean look out post from some 1st world country at one point if I remember correctly. He claims it's a sovereign country.

Just think of governments as owning a lot of land, and they're facing debt problems. It's natural to look for quick fixes. We could pay a high price for otherwise unused land. Do you think every government in the world would say no?
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 12:24:56 AM »

Purchasing land (if we had the money) is totally viable, it just depends on the country. Once we've achieved miniature Ancapistan, we set up shop and never let go. It's defending THAT area where you make a stand. Once we have an ancap foothold, we resist takeover, by all means necessary. That is the "right time" in my opinion. If defenses could be procured, that place has the potential (regardless of location) to be mighty profitable.

Is there a precedent for this?
Can't say I know. Some guy bought an ocean look out post from some 1st world country at one point if I remember correctly. He claims it's a sovereign country.

Just think of governments as owning a lot of land, and they're facing debt problems. It's natural to look for quick fixes. We could pay a high price for otherwise unused land. Do you think every government in the world would say no?

No eventually one is going to agree. We just need to find it and raise the funds to make the purchase...
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"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

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Two Zombies and a Sheriff
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 08:24:49 AM »

Somalia?

Somalia was only anarchist for about 10 years.  The constant wars with the US had them align with warlords to fight back.  Was there some reasoning behind this suggestion?
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 08:52:02 AM »

I hate to add a dose of reality to this magnificent dream;however, do you actually believe that any government in the world would tolerate a functioning Voluntaryist society?  If a Voluntaryist society could be allowed to function -without outside interference- then it would prove that government in not necessary; do you actually think any government would allow that to happen?

Somalia is a good example.  After their initial collapse, there was violence; however, that died down and peace was starting to emerge.  Then the US and UK started propping-up some of the warlords and gave Ethiopia weapons and food and had them(Ethiopia) start a war with Somalia.

No government in the world can allow for a Voluntaryist society to even start to emerge or they show the illegitimacy of all government; this will not happen.

So, even if you managed to buy some land off of a poor country; the bigger countries would nearly instantly start to cause problems so they could use those manufactured problems to show their sheep why a Voluntaryist society isn't possible.  The only chance one would have is if they have plenty of scientists and weapons experts and billions of dollars, to make a defence system to protect the society from outsiders.  However, immigration would then also have to be a hassle or you risk letting provocateurs in to your country to destabilize it.  The big problem is, in trying to protect it from outsiders the defence would basically have to be socialized at least at first to get it off-the-ground.  Everything would have to be monitored to protect the society from outsiders, that it would almost need to be a surveillance state. 

Also, most scientists are socialists by nature; because their work is extremely expensive.  The only way most even know of getting funding is through government; and the other funding the receive via Universities and Corporations are then subsidized by government via taxes.  Without government most scientists wouldn't be getting grants and therefore, they always lean towards a socialistic approach; to science at least.  However, Einstein was an advocate of Socialism in general; and so are many of the modern scientists as well.

I suppose what I'm getting at is: if people wanted to do this project, then the best way to start is to think of what would be needed to maintain and protect it and work on securing those before one even thinks about buying any land.  Things would have to move quickly to prevent being infiltrated; you would need people, money, supplies, defence, and operating procedures and many other items to be designed, tested and ready for implementation immediately upon purchasing of the land.  No government would ever allow a Voluntaryist society the time needed to do these things organically; for it would spell the end of the reign of governments everywhere.
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2013, 10:31:51 AM »

I somewhat disagree Agorist- I think we should keep in mind how multinational corporations/companies affect government heavyhandness as well.

I mean, think about it- wouldn't the Free Territory quickly become the financial capital of the world, with most major corporations storing their money, and many corporations setting up shop there? Any attempt at an overthrow would likely make many of the world's major corporations pretty pissy and, at the moment at least, they have a heavy hand involved in almost all governments.

Mind, I'm not saying that corporations are renown for their dislike of using State power to their advantage- but what I am saying is that a voluntary society would quickly show them that they are at a much greater advantage to have no government rather than a corporatist one and, unlike us, they have the money and influence to bring about what they want into being.

While I do agree that some vaguely sentient rulers ala O'Brien would work quickly to try to invade, we should realize that, in the end, we're not dealing with Oceania here- current State rulers are hypocritical idiots who have very little conception as to the true nature of power
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2013, 10:58:29 AM »

@ State God

Why I disagree with your assessment of the Corporations.

Under Corporatism, the protection for the Corporations is paid for by the slaves ie tax payers.  However, most if not all of the Corporation's taxes -which they paid in throughout the year- are returned at the end of the year via their tax return.  Apple paid 1.46% Tax in 2011; do you think that 1.46% of their profits would have been enough money to secure their IP, their physical security and trade negotiations with other countries?  GE pays 0% tax; they would in now way want to now accept the burden of having to pay for everything that the tax payers pay for to protect GE stuff.  Also, don't forget that in a Voluntaryist society, these companies would actually have to compete to keep their market share; they wouldn't have government limiting competition for them via Rules and Regulations.  If there is a lot of competition then that isn't good for the company -it's great for the consumer- because they will necessarily have to sell their products cheaper thereby collecting less profit per item, and selling too many items could cost them dearly with the added expense to manufacture more products.

The Corporations love the Corporatists system; it is highly beneficial to them.  They get all of the benefits, with the least amount of direct costs.

If they didn't pass these costs onto the tax payer then their product price would either have to go up, or the profit of the product would have to go down.  They found a better way, and that is to have the tax payers -customers and non-customers alike- pay for their costs; just like how public schools have everybody in the area pay for the education of the students, not just the parents of students.  If only Apple customer had to pay for the expenses of Apple, I think we would see a much different price structure for their products.
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 11:03:45 PM »

@ Agrarian_Agorist:

I don't expect them to just "let" voluntaryism happen. I'm talking about the endgame. Once the foothold is established, it's a race to secure it, attract people to it, and set up defenses. It's done as quietly as possible. By the time governments decide to fuck with it, it's too late. The ancaps get in a good enough position to make their porcupine-like stand, defensively threatening to fight back against anyone who interferes. Some tool of deterrence will be needed, but it's possible. But we're not anywhere close to being ready for this. Even if I had a strip of land to call ancapistan, I haven't made enough connections with people to be able to settle on it and defend it. Over time, technological advances will give us more ways to even the playing field and enable small groups to defend themselves. Once we're there, we get a nice libertarian billionaire sponsor to help us out, and then the porcupines make their stand. It's totally possible, and maybe even in my lifetime, but not till I'm much older. If it wasn't for a couple hundred years I wouldn't be surprised though. But I'll stick to the argument that it's DEFINITELY possible.
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2013, 11:19:19 PM »

@ Agrarian_Agorist:

I don't expect them to just "let" voluntaryism happen. I'm talking about the endgame. Once the foothold is established, it's a race to secure it, attract people to it, and set up defenses. It's done as quietly as possible. By the time governments decide to fuck with it, it's too late. The ancaps get in a good enough position to make their porcupine-like stand, defensively threatening to fight back against anyone who interferes. Some tool of deterrence will be needed, but it's possible. But we're not anywhere close to being ready for this. Even if I had a strip of land to call ancapistan, I haven't made enough connections with people to be able to settle on it and defend it. Over time, technological advances will give us more ways to even the playing field and enable small groups to defend themselves. Once we're there, we get a nice libertarian billionaire sponsor to help us out, and then the porcupines make their stand. It's totally possible, and maybe even in my lifetime, but not till I'm much older. If it wasn't for a couple hundred years I wouldn't be surprised though. But I'll stick to the argument that it's DEFINITELY possible.

Get a nuke, no one fucks with people that have nukes.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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