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Author Topic: Something i don't get  (Read 14871 times)
Kitk34
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 08:32:24 PM »

I think you might have misunderstood MAM Kitk. We're not debating morality here (which seems to be what you're saying when you say 'right'), we're talking about the traditional belief amongst libertarians in absolute, objective and 'natural' rights (ex. the 'right' to free speech).

Going off of that, MAM's not saying that anything is justified by violence. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page) that rights aren't objective, tangible things, so much as representations of when and where people use force without consistent retaliatory force from the rest of society and/or the labeling of violence in said situation as "unjust" or "immoral".

For example, the phrase "Right to Property" signifies that, in situations where somebody has homesteaded or purchased property they will more often than not use force to defend this ownership against people who may attempt to use violence to take it for themselves and, generally, society as a whole does not view this as immoral or unjustified and does not try to punish it.

Exactly! Therefore the goal in my mind is to move through use of propaganda the place marker of "just" use of violence. To use the intellectual route to show people that police (in most cases, certainly not all) are nothing more than thugs and gang bangers, and to get them to realize that shooting that ass hole is a morally right action.

Then of course you get someone to go out and shoot the SOB.

I guess I'm not saying anything different from anyone else here. I'm just trying to get across the idea that until "we" have a stick big enough to whack people on the head and are willing to do so, we don't have rights what we have are privileges.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with both of you; except getting someone to shoot, save for self defense.  But keep in mind that a person will be less receptive if they are "beaten over the head".  I have learned the hard way. Smiley                               

Later
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MAM
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2013, 08:37:41 PM »

I think you might have misunderstood MAM Kitk. We're not debating morality here (which seems to be what you're saying when you say 'right'), we're talking about the traditional belief amongst libertarians in absolute, objective and 'natural' rights (ex. the 'right' to free speech).

Going off of that, MAM's not saying that anything is justified by violence. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page) that rights aren't objective, tangible things, so much as representations of when and where people use force without consistent retaliatory force from the rest of society and/or the labeling of violence in said situation as "unjust" or "immoral".

For example, the phrase "Right to Property" signifies that, in situations where somebody has homesteaded or purchased property they will more often than not use force to defend this ownership against people who may attempt to use violence to take it for themselves and, generally, society as a whole does not view this as immoral or unjustified and does not try to punish it.

Exactly! Therefore the goal in my mind is to move through use of propaganda the place marker of "just" use of violence. To use the intellectual route to show people that police (in most cases, certainly not all) are nothing more than thugs and gang bangers, and to get them to realize that shooting that ass hole is a morally right action.

Then of course you get someone to go out and shoot the SOB.

I guess I'm not saying anything different from anyone else here. I'm just trying to get across the idea that until "we" have a stick big enough to whack people on the head and are willing to do so, we don't have rights what we have are privileges.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with both of you; except getting someone to shoot, save for self defense.  But keep in mind that a person will be less receptive if they are "beaten over the head".  I have learned the hard way. Smiley                               

Later

I don't want to beat prols over the head only people who try to stop me from living my life according to my ethics.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Kitk34
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2013, 09:56:30 PM »

I understand MAM, and know the feeling.  And I meant verbally speaking.  I should've specified that.

As to the rest of what you said, I don't think I can disagree.

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Amagi
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 05:33:44 PM »

The issue is this:

There aren't that many voluntaryists. Organizing them all is difficult. If we all stood up against the state in some massive "uprising," whatever that may be, we would all end up in prison, or worse. I think we are more useful out of prison, than in.

Until we reach critical mass, we must take baby steps toward a voluntary society. Baby steps include: educating people of the importance of personal responsibility, raising funds, and breaking small pieces of legislation every day  Tongue.

I think the first step is concentrating a large group of voluntaryists in one place, and then start practicing what we preach. Once there is a large enough group in one place that is well organized we can start doing civil disobedience on a large enough scale. That will receive "national" attention, and the idea that you own your own body and a voluntary society works will spread much more quickly. The FSP has a good start on this, however it is not there yet.
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acft
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 04:17:18 AM »

The peace doesn't exist part reminds me of the Sith creed.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength, through strength I gain power, through power I gain victory, and through victory my chains are broken.. or something like that.

Ok so having nerded out...

This is what I think the solution for a hyperminority that needs to empower the group members and establish group defense is:

http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=88

It is indeed true, might has, does, and always will make right, its just that this truth hurts a lot of people's feelings, especially those who are weak.( I am currently also in a weak position)

When you say "there is no after life and when you die you are dead forever" people's feelings are hurt and they feel bad. It does not matter what evidence you put forward after that. If you want to be free, you have to kill those who would enslave you. Period.

I would go farther and say you must also silence those agitating for your enslavement as well.

I've said elsewhere that most of the voluntaryist types tend to be disgustingly peaceful if not outright pacifistic.  If I had 20 Dorners under my command, or in a group with me, there would be a large ancap enclave already.

Eventually, someone will be tested, and a trigger will have to be pulled. There is no getting around this. If the question is not IF, but WHEN, it makes the most sense to prepare for that WHEN and to be in a position of advantage, choosing how and when to engage vs. being on the defensive. furthermore, the fact that one is prepared, armed, trained, and vigilant deters action against one's interests to begin with.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:19:53 AM by acft » Logged
Syock
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 08:14:28 AM »

Eventually, someone will be tested, and a trigger will have to be pulled. There is no getting around this. If the question is not IF, but WHEN, it makes the most sense to prepare for that WHEN and to be in a position of advantage, choosing how and when to engage vs. being on the defensive. furthermore, the fact that one is prepared, armed, trained, and vigilant deters action against one's interests to begin with.

The only thing that deters the US government is nukes.  Until you have one, you do not deter the state. 
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MAM
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 04:01:58 PM »

Eventually, someone will be tested, and a trigger will have to be pulled. There is no getting around this. If the question is not IF, but WHEN, it makes the most sense to prepare for that WHEN and to be in a position of advantage, choosing how and when to engage vs. being on the defensive. furthermore, the fact that one is prepared, armed, trained, and vigilant deters action against one's interests to begin with.

The only thing that deters the US government is nukes.  Until you have one, you do not deter the state. 

I've said before that countries with nukes are left alone, those without them get attacked. Who doesn't want a nuke?
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 12:29:01 AM »

To acft I read that essay I agree with alot of what he's saying, somethings I don't, but that's to be expected. Frankly I wish there were more Chris Dorners in the world. It's a win win Statists killing Statists, that to me is the beauty of assassination politics most of the people that would be killed off would be Statists whether assassins or government goons, a can't lose scenario in my book.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
acft
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 04:07:46 PM »

To acft I read that essay I agree with alot of what he's saying, somethings I don't, but that's to be expected. Frankly I wish there were more Chris Dorners in the world. It's a win win Statists killing Statists, that to me is the beauty of assassination politics most of the people that would be killed off would be Statists whether assassins or government goons, a can't lose scenario in my book.

I agree with the Chris Donner sentiment. Incidentally, if that comet had hit us, a whole lot more statists would have been fried than non statists LOL.

Anywho, what points in the article did you find disagreeable?
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MAM
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 08:01:19 PM »

To acft I read that essay I agree with alot of what he's saying, somethings I don't, but that's to be expected. Frankly I wish there were more Chris Dorners in the world. It's a win win Statists killing Statists, that to me is the beauty of assassination politics most of the people that would be killed off would be Statists whether assassins or government goons, a can't lose scenario in my book.

I agree with the Chris Donner sentiment. Incidentally, if that comet had hit us, a whole lot more statists would have been fried than non statists LOL.

Anywho, what points in the article did you find disagreeable?

I don't agree with his stance on assassination politics for one.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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