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Author Topic: Food Forest  (Read 11839 times)
AgoristTeen1994
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 12:40:28 PM »

Make sure you don't blow yourself up while making that.

Bah, you're no fun. What fun is there in making and then setting off explosive and/or incendiary devices without a little risk. Besides I've done that dozens of times....though it HAS been a few years.  Cry *realizes I'm suffering from withdrawal from not setting off any explosives/incendiaries*


@Guardian: Hey! There's plenty of room for both! Especially since my explosives/incendiaries aren't built for the purposes of injuring or killing people, but just to set them off in areas where there's little risk of hurting innocent bystanders in the area. Besides IIRC Food Not Bombs is associated with stopping GOVERNMENT spending on and production of weapons of war, for purposes of war.
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 06:08:31 PM »

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....Besides IIRC Food Not Bombs is associated with stopping GOVERNMENT spending on and production of weapons of war, for purposes of war.

I know, I was just trying to keep the mood of the thread, which is to create life, not destroy it. Through self-sufficiency, freedom can be achieved. Over 50 million people in the United States are on some sort of government assistance (ie: welfare, food stamps, etc.) Imagine if just 1% of those people (500,000) were to be become self-sufficient by growing their own food, either through food forests, hydroponics, or aquaponics, and if they generated their own electricity. If individuals can become self-sufficient, they will no longer be reliant on the government for their most basic necessities. Not only that, but if great multitudes of people generate their own power, grow their own food, and collect their own water, 3 of the world's largest industries (energy, food, and water), who are also 3 of the world's largest consumers of government subsidies, will be eliminated.

Hydroponics
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5tnHfikb64" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5tnHfikb64</a>
Aquaponics
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBspR2p0YYM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBspR2p0YYM</a>
Power Generation
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH8lzTz23XE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH8lzTz23XE</a>
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Syock
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 05:23:27 AM »

Unfortunately you just linked some of the most expensive ways to produce food due to all the equipment that goes with it, and for many people an unreliable, noisy type of wind generator.
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Guardian
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 01:52:00 PM »

Unfortunately you just linked some of the most expensive ways to produce food due to all the equipment that goes with it, and for many people an unreliable, noisy type of wind generator.

While I will agree the aquaponics and hydroponics have a high initial cost, once they are up and running, they can be configured to have a maintenance cost of zero. Also, I would personally never rely solely on any one method of food production or power generation. Diversification and the ability to change is the best way to survive. Those links I posted were merely a handful of the many ways individuals can grow their own food and generate their own power. For power generation, some other great ways are waterwheels and solar panels.


Small Scale Hydro-Electric
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Iq0b2jwyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Iq0b2jwyw</a>
Solar Panels
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouLa4Ftu3O8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouLa4Ftu3O8</a>

But since you seem to have problems with these methods, what do you suggest? What way should an individual grow their own food and generate their own power? 
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braindead0
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 04:12:40 PM »

While I will agree the aquaponics and hydroponics have a high initial cost, once they are up and running, they can be configured to have a maintenance cost of zero.
How do you figure a maintenance cost of 0?  Pumps break, lines wear out. and they all require a lot of cleaning.
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AgoristTeen1994
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 05:06:03 PM »

I have to agree with both Guardian and braindead0 in this regard....while aquaponics, and hydroponics (hydroponics less so from my understanding) are pretty dang self-sufficient. They initial start-up cost can be pretty high, but once you get going it's not too expensive, though it isn't absolute 0...what with having fix/replaces pumps, and piping/hoses et cetera for both, and other stuff for hydroponics. Plus there's the cost of food for the fish with aquaponics though there are ways around that.

Oh and Guardian, I definitely agree with you that it'd be a fantastic thing if the majority of people who currently rely on gov't assistance for food, or even are just reliant on others for food and power generation can meet most of their needs through self-sufficiency. Of course there will be some things they'll have to rely on others for...for example someone from Michigan, New Hampshire, or Wyoming would have a horrible time growing oranges, or lemons. Or people who live in Florida, Alabama, or Georgia, would possibly have issues with cabbage, lettuce, cale, and to a lesser degree potatoes and carrots. But it would be awesome if people could provide say 90% of the food they eat from their own land. Also regarding focusing on creating/growing life, rather than destroying it....while explosives can be quite lethal (obviously) there are more benign purposes. Such as if you cut a tree down, and you want to get rid of the stump, blasting it would be quite helpful.


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Syock
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 05:21:44 PM »

But since you seem to have problems with these methods, what do you suggest? What way should an individual grow their own food and generate their own power?  

I have long advocated the stuff you had in your first post.  

The issue I have with aqua/hydroponics is that due to the cost associated with them, they only make sense with high value or otherwise unobtainable crops.  If you go plant your everyday food crops in them, you will be spending a lot of money on your food.  There are constant inputs of nutrients in aqua/hydroponic systems that are self-sustaining in the food forest systems.   Instead of buying food for yourself, you end up buying food for the plants/fish.  Top that off with the cost of electric and/or the systems to supply that electric.

For power generation, they need to be tailored to the location/use.  The common type of wind turbine as shown in the video tends to only be effective in areas of constant high wind (greater than 10 miles per hour).  Helical turbines tend to be a less efficient at high wind, but work in slower and turbulent wind that is more common unless you live next to the water or in the desert, while also eliminating the noise issue.  A water wheel (not in the video) tends to be better for mechanical output.  Micro-hydro tends to only be cost effective if you have a decent amount of power to use/generate, such as a handful of homes and is only available in the right location.  If you want to get the most out of solar you need to consider concentrated solar, as the cells add up in cost for a relatively small output per cell.  When you concentrate the solar on cells they reduce output unless you keep them cool, which combines well with solar thermal.  Solar thermal can be used for a variety of applications (even cooling) without the need to even convert to electricity.  Electric is like gasoline, it is a convenient delivery system of energy, but certainly not the only one.  

There are a ton of options I would suggest, but I don't feel like typing more out right now.  


Oh and Guardian, I definitely agree with you that it'd be a fantastic thing if the majority of people who currently rely on gov't assistance for food, or even are just reliant on others for food and power generation can meet most of their needs through self-sufficiency.

The real problem is that they do not want to! 

If someone comes by every day and hands everyone on your block $250 as long as they continue to spend it and not work, how many would bother to work?  The same kind of problem is happening in most countries the USA claims to be helping.  The government workers basically have nothing to do, but get paid huge amounts of money.  The money destroys the local economy as people become reliant on easy money and imports, rather than local industry.  When the money ends, a lot of people in the world will be hurting. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 05:38:54 PM by Syock » Logged

Guardian
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2013, 10:39:13 PM »


The real problem is that they do not want to! 

If someone comes by every day and hands everyone on your block $250 as long as they continue to spend it and not work, how many would bother to work?  The same kind of problem is happening in most countries the USA claims to be helping.  The government workers basically have nothing to do, but get paid huge amounts of money.  The money destroys the local economy as people become reliant on easy money and imports, rather than local industry.  When the money ends, a lot of people in the world will be hurting. 

What you say is sad, but true. However, I will do everything within my power to not only obtain self-sufficiency for myself, but for anyone else who will listen. It is my opinion that we voluntaryists should strive to not only liberate ourselves, but others as well, through food and energy independence.
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MAM
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2013, 09:48:36 PM »

Quote
or even are just reliant on others for food and power generation can meet most of their needs through self-sufficiency.

Should we just ignore the efficacy of the division of labour altogether then?
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Syock
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2013, 12:03:10 AM »

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or even are just reliant on others for food and power generation can meet most of their needs through self-sufficiency.

Should we just ignore the efficacy of the division of labour altogether then?

I don't think he said anything about that.  There are plenty of reasons to desire going off-grid/supermarket.  To be fair, there isn't a ton of work in maintaining the power supply if you set it up properly in the first place.  Food production can be a chore, but so is grocery shopping and cooking your own meals. 
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2013, 12:07:56 AM »

Quote
or even are just reliant on others for food and power generation can meet most of their needs through self-sufficiency.

Should we just ignore the efficacy of the division of labour altogether then?

I don't think he said anything about that.  There are plenty of reasons to desire going off-grid/supermarket.  To be fair, there isn't a ton of work in maintaining the power supply if you set it up properly in the first place.  Food production can be a chore, but so is grocery shopping and cooking your own meals. 

The reason people aren't self sufficient today is because of the efficacy of the division of labour.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Syock
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2013, 06:29:13 AM »

The reason people aren't self sufficient today is because of the efficacy of the division of labour.

There is more to it than that.  If good off-grid power came standard with houses instead of on-grid power, then people wouldn't be on the grid.  There are costs associated with making the switch.  People tend to look at the upfront cost and ignore total cost of ownership.  That means people won't go for off-grid housing in general because the cost of power is upfront. 

The division of labor in the case of power is at installation, not your day to day life.  The question is do they use that labor to run a line to your house, or install the off-grid system. 
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2013, 12:33:05 PM »

The reason people aren't self sufficient today is because of the efficacy of the division of labour.

There is more to it than that.  If good off-grid power came standard with houses instead of on-grid power, then people wouldn't be on the grid.  There are costs associated with making the switch.  People tend to look at the upfront cost and ignore total cost of ownership.  That means people won't go for off-grid housing in general because the cost of power is upfront. 

The division of labor in the case of power is at installation, not your day to day life.  The question is do they use that labor to run a line to your house, or install the off-grid system. 

So the essence of your point here is that people aren't off the grid because in order for them to be off the grid they have to front the cost upfront instead of having the filter of the the electric co-op. A similar argument to one that I make about war, that if people had to bear the cost directly they wouldn't, so an anarchist society would have fewer wars... HMMM....
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
AgoristTeen1994
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2013, 12:47:09 PM »

So the essence of your point here is that people aren't off the grid because in order for them to be off the grid they have to front the cost upfront instead of having the filter of the the electric co-op. A similar argument to one that I make about war, that if people had to bear the cost directly they wouldn't, so an anarchist society would have fewer wars... HMMM....

I don't think that was QUITE the point he was trying to make. I think with War, there's a lot of propaganda involved that increases support for any given war a State enters. The financial costs are paid over time, and the cost is socialized (in theory) among the entirety of the tax (extortion) payers. Where as with stuff like solar or wind power for their home, they pay that upfront and unless they get a loan, they pay it out of pocket. Sure it saves money in the long-run but they don't see that. Either way I find it ironic (in a bad way) that you are comparing people going off the grid so they don't have to rely on state-favored power/electricity companies, to war.
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