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Question: Violence
I'm a Pacifist - 2 (8.7%)
I believe in self defence - 16 (69.6%)
Violence is acceptable to use in the overthrow of the State - 3 (13%)
Violence is not acceptable - 0 (0%)
Other (clarify) - 2 (8.7%)
Total Voters: 23

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MAM
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 07:27:42 PM »

Is violence acceptable, meaning justifiable according to my morals, against the State? Yes.

Is it ever a useful tactic? Yes.

Is it a tactic that one should promote at this time? Absolutely not.

The problem is that 95%+ of the population gets their information from the mainstream media or the government. Therefore, if any acts of violence were enacted against the State, the State would either cover up the incident or say that it was some evil bogeyman (terrorists, communists, nazis, etc.) behind the act. The act of violence would only strengthen their side and serve as a justification to expand the State.

 

I am aware.
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 07:54:35 PM »

Whether I believe in violence or not, is not the real question.  I do not believe that we will have much of an option.  I believe that the 'State' is hell-bent on starting a war with the people; and either we allow ourselves to be rounded-up and/or killed or we will have to fight back.  I do not believe that the Government is going to maintain the fairly peaceful existence we currently enjoy for much longer; it is going to be impossible.  The Fed claims that it will not be doing much more buy-backs of treasuries, and nobody else is going to be buying them.  The government is going to have to take everybody's mind off their problems, so the government is lining-up the second Civil War.

The real question is: when the government comes knocking(or just breaking and entering) what are we as individuals going to do?  I think that is the real question which everybody needs to ask themselves.
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MAM
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 08:07:52 PM »

Whether I believe in violence or not, is not the real question.  I do not believe that we will have much of an option.  I believe that the 'State' is hell-bent on starting a war with the people; and either we allow ourselves to be rounded-up and/or killed or we will have to fight back.  I do not believe that the Government is going to maintain the fairly peaceful existence we currently enjoy for much longer; it is going to be impossible.  The Fed claims that it will not be doing much more buy-backs of treasuries, and nobody else is going to be buying them.  The government is going to have to take everybody's mind off their problems, so the government is lining-up the second Civil War.

The real question is: when the government comes knocking(or just breaking and entering) what are we as individuals going to do?  I think that is the real question which everybody needs to ask themselves.

Kill as many of the fuckers as I can before they kill me...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Seth King
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 09:24:15 PM »

A lot of people really struggle with the question of when it's time to revolt. The answer is fairly easy for me.

When the threat of not shooting back is greater than or equal to the threat of remaining non-violent, then it is time to get violent.

And since the threat of shooting back is essentially life in prison or death, then it means the state will have to threaten me will life in prison or death for X, in order for me to consider getting violent.

While I can definitely see that happening in the future, at the moment there is nothing I do that is likely to get me threatened with life in prison or death(unless the state wants to frame me for something, which I suppose is possible if they think I'm too much of a thorn in their side). All of the laws I break are either not being enforced, or are a slap on the wrist if caught. So, I see no reason to escalate.

And essentially, I think that's what starts civil wars, when the state escalates. Take for example Mexico. Getting caught with a gun or selling drugs is life in prison in Mexico. When the state raises the bar that high, they've basically FORCED people to shoot back. I mean, you're either going to get arrested non-violently and spend the rest of your life in prison, or you're going to try to escape by shooting the cop. Worst case scenario is you get killed right there, or you later get caught and go to prison for life. Thus, you didn't increase any risk by shooting back.

So, the drug cartels basically said, look, we don't surrender. We shoot back. And thus started the civil war.

Something like that could easily happen in the states. Imaging a 20 year sentence for possession of firearms. At that point, you've got nothing left to lose but shoot back.
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 10:25:30 PM »

@ Seth

While I generally agree with you; I just don't believe that the government is going to be giving any heads-up warning.  As of late, they have discovered that it is better to kill and leave no witnesses than to take prisoners.  If they exercise a No-Knock on a residence -intentionally or otherwise- the individual is more likely to be killed than arrested. It is far less messy dealing with a dead suspect than dealing with a living plaintiff.  If one waits for the government to make the first move before they decide what they are willing to do, then it is already too late.  I don't want people to make standing declarations here, but I do believe they should be asking themselves these questions so they themselves know exactly what they are to do, if or when the time comes.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 10:39:39 PM »

@ Seth

While I generally agree with you; I just don't believe that the government is going to be giving any heads-up warning.  As of late, they have discovered that it is better to kill and leave no witnesses than to take prisoners.  If they exercise a No-Knock on a residence -intentionally or otherwise- the individual is more likely to be killed than arrested. It is far less messy dealing with a dead suspect than dealing with a living plaintiff.  If one waits for the government to make the first move before they decide what they are willing to do, then it is already too late.  I don't want people to make standing declarations here, but I do believe they should be asking themselves these questions so they themselves know exactly what they are to do, if or when the time comes.

Make ready.
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 11:02:03 PM »

While the number of voluntarists are small and advocate peaceful means of resistance, the total number of potential dissidents is very large.  

While I posted earlier that violent resistance by voluntarists is numerically ridiculous, people on the right who have arms are in huge numbers and have a very bad attitude towards D.C.  The national state security apparatus simply does not have the manpower to haul off that many people.  It would require full blown military mobilization, with all national guard and reservists to even try to achieve it.  

The logistics of such a feat is mind boggling.  Think of how much time and planning is involved in rounding up people.  If the swat teams and local police were to assist rounding people up, think of how much time it will take to identify a target home, assemble their team, drive there, engage, clean up, and move on to the next place.  If people surrender they have to be transported and processed somewhere.  The homes have to be searched, weapons and computers confiscated and transported.  If they split up into too many small teams to make it go faster, they risk high casualties; too few large teams, it takes too long and people get wind.  Then there is issues with getting the wrong houses, collateral damage, and all kinds of pandemonium.

The internet and all communications would have to be shut down to prevent word getting out, which would in effect get the word out.  If they didn't shut it down, social media and phone networks would blow up from 2nd hand reports of police raiding neighbors, friends, families and the word would get out.

There would be leaks from inside the organizations.  Just look at how bad a problem leaks are already.  Word would get out.  People would realize what was going on and they would mobilize into small groups and set up ambushes.  They wouldn't just sit around and do nothing waiting for the swat team to come for them too.  People would meet up with their most trusted friends and family and things would go to shit very quickly.  Doesn't matter that the state has drones, there aren't enough drone operators to canvas the entire country.  What are they going to do, bomb residential neighborhoods?

No, I think there is no need to panic or worry.  They will keep doing it slowly, inch by inch which gives us lots of time.  I don't buy into conspiracy theories because I don't think the state has demonstrated it has the kind of organizational skill to pull off something like that quickly and without severe underestimations.

Now if they go after very small fringe groups, we're screwed.
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Seth King
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 11:38:00 PM »

@ Seth

While I generally agree with you; I just don't believe that the government is going to be giving any heads-up warning.  As of late, they have discovered that it is better to kill and leave no witnesses than to take prisoners.  If they exercise a No-Knock on a residence -intentionally or otherwise- the individual is more likely to be killed than arrested. It is far less messy dealing with a dead suspect than dealing with a living plaintiff.  If one waits for the government to make the first move before they decide what they are willing to do, then it is already too late.  I don't want people to make standing declarations here, but I do believe they should be asking themselves these questions so they themselves know exactly what they are to do, if or when the time comes.

I don't play defense. If they decide to raid my house for some reason I have no intention of defending myself. They know how to raid places. That's their strong suit. I wouldn't stand a chance. I'd rather surrender and live to fight another day.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2011/11/26/the-value-of-aggression/

If it was widely known throughout the country that they were hauling people off to the FEMA camps, I'm not likely to sit around at my house waiting for the inevitable.

Like Helio said above. If they went after small communities, there's not much the AnCaps could do. We're too small. And I think there's a good chance they would do that. You know the old saying... First they came for the... and by the time they came for me...
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MAM
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 11:46:57 PM »

@ Seth

While I generally agree with you; I just don't believe that the government is going to be giving any heads-up warning.  As of late, they have discovered that it is better to kill and leave no witnesses than to take prisoners.  If they exercise a No-Knock on a residence -intentionally or otherwise- the individual is more likely to be killed than arrested. It is far less messy dealing with a dead suspect than dealing with a living plaintiff.  If one waits for the government to make the first move before they decide what they are willing to do, then it is already too late.  I don't want people to make standing declarations here, but I do believe they should be asking themselves these questions so they themselves know exactly what they are to do, if or when the time comes.

I don't play defense. If they decide to raid my house for some reason I have no intention of defending myself. They know how to raid places. That's their strong suit. I wouldn't stand a chance. I'd rather surrender and live to fight another day.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2011/11/26/the-value-of-aggression/

If it was widely known throughout the country that they were hauling people off to the FEMA camps, I'm not likely to sit around at my house waiting for the inevitable.

Like Helio said above. If they went after small communities, there's not much the AnCaps could do. We're too small. And I think there's a good chance they would do that. You know the old saying... First they came for the... and by the time they came for me...

That ain't a saying Seth that's a quote from a priest who survived interment by the Nazi's Martin Niemöller

Also it's easy to pick the weak and the lame from the herd. That's why you get yourself a crew.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 11:53:24 PM »

I'm an advocate of peace but I seriously doubt that change is going to happen without violence, at the very least as the Black Market grows it's going to be bloody. What is it that the IRA say? Something about how a unified Ireland that ain't gonna happen with non violence...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2013, 05:49:12 AM »

When the threat of not shooting back is greater than or equal to the threat of remaining non-violent, then it is time to get violent. 

That sums it up quite well. While the line might be a little blurry, you brought up some excellent points about what has taken place in Mexico.
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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2013, 10:28:04 AM »

I'm an advocate of peace but I seriously doubt that change is going to happen without violence, at the very least as the Black Market grows it's going to be bloody. What is it that the IRA say? Something about how a unified Ireland that ain't gonna happen with non violence...

My main jab at violence against the State (I'm not against the killing of the true criminals- general government employees are a different matter) is that it feeds into the stereotype of the violent, bomb-throwing anarchist.

You're right, the final push to overthrowing the State will require violence- but getting there requires steadily growing a group of people willing to do it, while also gaining the support of the rest of society, as unless we have the approval or quiet resignation of a majority (or near majority) of society a neo-State would arise very quickly, with the anarchists being placed as the barbaric enemies of human civilization.
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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2013, 10:52:29 AM »

I'm an advocate of peace but I seriously doubt that change is going to happen without violence, at the very least as the Black Market grows it's going to be bloody. What is it that the IRA say? Something about how a unified Ireland that ain't gonna happen with non violence...

My main jab at violence against the State (I'm not against the killing of the true criminals- general government employees are a different matter) is that it feeds into the stereotype of the violent, bomb-throwing anarchist.

You're right, the final push to overthrowing the State will require violence- but getting there requires steadily growing a group of people willing to do it, while also gaining the support of the rest of society, as unless we have the approval or quiet resignation of a majority (or near majority) of society a neo-State would arise very quickly, with the anarchists being placed as the barbaric enemies of human civilization.

I concur but if you haven't noticed I'm not the most articulate individual in the world :/ my skills lie in other areas. However I am working on some pamphlets and stuff. But it is really slow for me because as I said I'm not articulate.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

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Two Zombies and a Sheriff
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« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2013, 12:39:59 PM »

The internet and all communications would have to be shut down to prevent word getting out, which would in effect get the word out.  If they didn't shut it down, social media and phone networks would blow up from 2nd hand reports of police raiding neighbors, friends, families and the word would get out.

There would be leaks from inside the organizations.  Just look at how bad a problem leaks are already.  Word would get out.  People would realize what was going on and they would mobilize into small groups and set up ambushes.  They wouldn't just sit around and do nothing waiting for the swat team to come for them too.  People would meet up with their most trusted friends and family and things would go to shit very quickly.  Doesn't matter that the state has drones, there aren't enough drone operators to canvas the entire country.  What are they going to do, bomb residential neighborhoods?

No, I think there is no need to panic or worry.  They will keep doing it slowly, inch by inch which gives us lots of time.  I don't buy into conspiracy theories because I don't think the state has demonstrated it has the kind of organizational skill to pull off something like that quickly and without severe underestimations.

Now if they go after very small fringe groups, we're screwed.

Really?
 Leaks; what leaks?  How many people in the United States know of Fast and Furious?  Of those who have heard of it; how many think that what they've heard was some kind of conspiracy theory?

Who is going to be the voice of reason?  My neighbour; I highly doubt that if the Feds come to my house, the neighbours would jeopardizes themselves by saying anything; what about yours.  Do you think that if the Feds came to your house that your neighbours would jeopardize their well-being to report on the incident on the internet.  Do you really think your neighbours are going to want to go through the same thing that you went through?

The only way it would be reported is if the NEWS reported on it; which wouldn't happen -not to the extent which would actually be of any real significance.  The story would be dropped, and everybody would forget it even happened.

2012 - NY Police shoot and kill a veteran after they went to the wrong address, they shot him 70+ times.
2012 - NV Police shoot and kill veteran outside of Costco, because he had a concealed weapon (and permit), the
            police claim he had a second weapon, none was ever recovered.
2011 - AZ Police shoot and kill veteran, after they went to the wrong address, they shot him 60+ times.

There are plenty of other real-life accounts which have happened, but most people have no idea that it is going on; and if someone tells people then that particular someone is called a conspiracy theorist -great discourse.

   A veteran who moved to Virginia got detained for not filing the paperwork for his weapons -he had just moved there- his home was ransacked his pet killed and nearly everything destroyed.  When his upstairs neighbour asked what they were doing, she was detained also.

1980's - Philadelphia police try to evacuate some group(I forget exactly why) the police end up burning down
              several of the surrounding homes and killing the people inside and not just the "bad" people either.
1968 - The USS Liberty was attacked by Israel with the intent on killing everybody on board; when they radioed for
            F-15's the US Government was prepared to let the men on the USS Liberty die to cover for Israel.  A USAF
            officer shipped two F-15's anyway saved as many of the Liberty crew as possible and he got a court-martial
            for violating a direct order.
1930's - US Service members kill WWI veterans and their families in and around DC; tanks rolled down the roads.

From Seth
Quote
I don't play defense. If they decide to raid my house for some reason I have no intention of defending myself. They know how to raid places. That's their strong suit. I wouldn't stand a chance. I'd rather surrender and live to fight another day.
Burrying ones head in the sand and pretending that nothing is already happening didn't work out so well for: Americans of German, Italian, Japanese decent during WWII, nor did it work out so well for Americans of German decent during WWI.  It didn't work out so well for Jews living in Nazi Germany nor for the nearly 12 million non-Jewish Germans Hitler killed.  It didn't work out so well for the nearly 20 million Polish which were killed by the Russians and then blamed on the Nazis for 40+ years.  It didn't work out so well for the 20+ million Ukrainians killed by the Russians nor for the several million Russians killed by their own government or the millions of Russian interned in the Gulag system.  It didn't work out so well for the 60+ million Chinese which were killed by their own government, nor has it worked out so well for the North Koreans.  I've been trying to look for a good example of when burying ones head in the sand to 'fight another day' has actually lead to something meaningful other than to die without firing a shot; I just can't seem to find it.

Whether people on here want to admit it or not, this is coming sooner or later.  American and foreign troops practice laying siege to a Casino/Hotel in Florida in 2012; how is attacking a hotel in the US preparing those NATO soldiers for fighting in the Middle East?  Why would there be towns set-up throughout the US which mimic actual small and large US towns which NATO and US soldiers practice attacking; what is the purpose of that but to prepare taking US towns and cities.  What about, why is the US Army teaching the cadets that the first terrorists were the Founding Fathers -whether you like them or not, one has to admit that claiming that the founders were terrorists is a bit far-fetched considering the only people who were terrorized where the British which were subjugating the people of the colonies at the time.  Why was a War-game Strategy(Capstone) created for the US Army involving taking a US State?

I got an idea, how about everybody read Mises because that is going to help fend-off a government hell-bent on killing or subjugating you.
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« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2013, 12:55:08 PM »

Reminds me of this book.

How do you kill 11 million people? You lie to them.
How do you take away their liberties? You lie to them.
How do you enslave and imprison them? You lie to them.

There's good news though, with Obama in the White House, many folks are expecting a gun grab and massive police state.
There's bad news though, these same people wouldn't be on alert and expecting the worst had a Republican won.

That's the state of tribalism in this country.

The only thing you can do is to stay alert, prepare, gather as many people like you together, prepare together, and try to get the word out as best you can to increae your ranks.

Many people in this country fear an Obama gun grab and police state. These same people though have no problem with the War on Drugs/Terror that helped put many of these foundations in place. Enlighten them and add them to the fold.

Thanks to folks like Ron Paul, an anti-state, distrust of authority movement is slowly building in this country. These people are on the right track but if we don't reach out to them they'll become a "we need a small, good government" Tea Partier or a follower of Rush Limbaugh. Don't let that happen.
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You take the blue pill- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

You take the red pill- you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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