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Question: Violence
I'm a Pacifist - 2 (8.7%)
I believe in self defence - 16 (69.6%)
Violence is acceptable to use in the overthrow of the State - 3 (13%)
Violence is not acceptable - 0 (0%)
Other (clarify) - 2 (8.7%)
Total Voters: 23

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Author Topic: Violence?  (Read 13952 times)
MAM
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2012, 03:28:40 PM »

I tend to think that a lot of the fighting that will be going on will be statists vs. the state. As the economy gets worse you'll see the liberals getting into more and more violent clashes with police, much like Greece. And when the government declares a war on guns you'll see the conservatives getting irate.

The anarchists are too few in numbers right now and joining either of those causes to bash our brains out against the state doesn't seem like a good idea. That's why I so highly favor moving to New Hampshire. Sometimes you have to retreat and gather your forces.

Sit back and let the statists destroy each other, and hopefully when it's all said and done we'll be left standing and in a good position to ward off threats.



I concur, I just got a temp job which brings me a little closer to the goal of GTFO this state. One thing about NM that I like is it's proximity to Mexico. You can't get damn near anything you want out here off the black market. But I digress.
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2012, 04:08:14 PM »

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Don't pick fights you can't win.  Survive and keep the battle in the realm of intellectualism
Intellectually we've won the battle. The problem is you can't beat faith with reason. I seriously doubt we're going to make much of an impact in this realm.

I'm not sure if you are aware but years ago there was this big thing on You Tube where the atheists debated the Christians and Creationists a guy who calls himself Thunderf00t posted a video series of like 30 videos called "Why People Laugh at Creationists" where he debunked over and over again claims made by the creationists. The guy is a physicist of some sort, In any case there are still people out there who refuse to relinquish their faith.

The point is this. We are behind. If we are going to get ahead and win then we need to start taking risks. I'm not saying that blowing shit up is the risk we need to take, but it is one that we can.

If we maintain the Status Quo we are going to lose plain and simple.

We need to seriously think about expanding the black and grey markets. Doing nothing but twiddling our thumbs isn't going to get us free!



I get where you're coming from, MAM, but I really DO think we're making progress. Fact is, winning intellectually doesn't take a few years. It takes decades and centuries to make an idea become a mass movement.

All things considered, we're going pretty fast. As Rothbard once said, even in the 80's you could probably fit all of the true libertarians (I don't consider Reaganites libertarians since they're hypocrites) in his apartment. But thanks to the internet, Ron Paul and others there are now millions of libertarians in America. It's not enough for a revolution (be it anarchic or minarchic), but it's closer than we used to be!

You're right, faith is blocking most people's reason. They've had statism ingrained in them since they were in kindergarten. But there's still alot of people out there who're are willing to listen to reason and more and more of them will move to our side as the failures of statism become increasingly evident.

The ultimate goal, in the intellectual field, isn't to win over 'the gray masses'. Most of them rely almost completely on faith (be it in a God or the State). The goal is to peacefully replace the intellectual cadre and political class with liberty-minded individuals, who in turn will spread the ideas to the younger generation who will have libertarian ideas ingrained in them from a young age.

The ultimate result being a positive-feedback loop that leads to more and more voluntarists.

TL;DR we need to do what the Marxists did, basically.
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2012, 09:54:36 PM »

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The problem is you can't beat faith with reason.

I'm very aware of the Thunderf00t videos and VenomFangX.  Watching Creationists vs Atheist videos is a favorite youtube pastime of mine.

I'm a baptist preacher's son and became an atheist.  It is really hard to do it when everyone you know is against it.  But it does happen more than you may realize.  One youtube channel I like is the Thinking Atheist, also a former preacher's son.

My point is that it takes time.  Don't give up.  Keep your powder dry because if you go around trying to convince everyone you meet, you'll be disappointed all the time.  Wait for the right person to come along who is asking sincere questions and is showing doubt.  Those are the people you have to look for.  It is slow, but exponential.  In a few generations, freedom can happen. 
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 08:25:47 PM »

I always like nonstampcollector's videos on the atheist vs theist debate.
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MAM
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 09:32:06 PM »

I always like nonstampcollector's videos on the atheist vs theist debate.

NSC wins the debate!
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2012, 01:45:16 PM »

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My point is that it takes time.  Don't give up.  Keep your powder dry because if you go around trying to convince everyone you meet, you'll be disappointed all the time.  Wait for the right person to come along who is asking sincere questions and is showing doubt.  Those are the people you have to look for.  It is slow, but exponential.  In a few generations, freedom can happen. 

Yeah it's hard not to despair.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 10:24:09 PM »

So, so far Seth and I are the only two people that think violence is acceptable...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 11:23:52 PM »

So, so far Seth and I are the only two people that think violence is acceptable...
I do too, but mass revolution would just bring on a new government, though it could allow anarchists to carve out a place to call home.
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MAM
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 01:37:34 AM »

So, so far Seth and I are the only two people that think violence is acceptable...
I do too, but mass revolution would just bring on a new government, though it could allow anarchists to carve out a place to call home.

I understand brother. I feel like it isn't the right time yet.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
MAM
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 01:40:15 AM »

In order to overthrow the state with violence,  there would have to be enough people to make it happen;  If you have enough people to overthrow the state with violence, you have enough people to end the state through non-violent civil disobedience.

Guerilla warfare brother. A war of attrition. The mujahadeen didn't beat Russia because they took straight fights. The VC didn't beat the US because they fought conventional, and the US is not losing the middle east because it's not taking fights.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 02:20:59 AM »

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Guerilla warfare brother.

In the case of the VC and Mujahadeen, they had the numbers to win through attrition because their populations could absorb appalling casualty rates.

If you gather up all the voluntarists, they would still be outnumbered by state police and military by a factor of 300 to 1, assuming there are only about 10,000 of us.  And that is just counting those people tasked with carrying out the violent acts of state power.  Given total employees, it is something like 2000 to 1, and if you add people in industries who rely on tax funding, perhaps 5000 to 1.  Then add in all of the people who support jingoism and nationalism and it approaches perhaps 20,000 to 1.

Attrition is not going to win it for us.  That is why we have to take the long term approach.  As soon as some anarchist pulls a gun and does something stupid, we may all be rounded up just from guilt by association.  I reject violence whole-heartily because even talking about it will destroy us faster than anything else we could possible do.

"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting" ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
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MAM
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2013, 02:50:20 AM »

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Guerilla warfare brother.

In the case of the VC and Mujahadeen, they had the numbers to win through attrition because their populations could absorb appalling casualty rates.

If you gather up all the voluntarists, they would still be outnumbered by state police and military by a factor of 300 to 1, assuming there are only about 10,000 of us.  And that is just counting those people tasked with carrying out the violent acts of state power.  Given total employees, it is something like 2000 to 1, and if you add people in industries who rely on tax funding, perhaps 5000 to 1.  Then add in all of the people who support jingoism and nationalism and it approaches perhaps 20,000 to 1.

Attrition is not going to win it for us.  That is why we have to take the long term approach.  As soon as some anarchist pulls a gun and does something stupid, we may all be rounded up just from guilt by association.  I reject violence whole-heartily because even talking about it will destroy us faster than anything else we could possible do.

"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting" ~ Obi Wan Kenobi

Conceded.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Seth King
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2013, 03:28:49 AM »

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Guerilla warfare brother.

In the case of the VC and Mujahadeen, they had the numbers to win through attrition because their populations could absorb appalling casualty rates.

If you gather up all the voluntarists, they would still be outnumbered by state police and military by a factor of 300 to 1, assuming there are only about 10,000 of us.  And that is just counting those people tasked with carrying out the violent acts of state power.  Given total employees, it is something like 2000 to 1, and if you add people in industries who rely on tax funding, perhaps 5000 to 1.  Then add in all of the people who support jingoism and nationalism and it approaches perhaps 20,000 to 1.

Attrition is not going to win it for us.  That is why we have to take the long term approach.  As soon as some anarchist pulls a gun and does something stupid, we may all be rounded up just from guilt by association.  I reject violence whole-heartily because even talking about it will destroy us faster than anything else we could possible do.

"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting" ~ Obi Wan Kenobi

This is very well said.

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State-God
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 08:06:52 AM »

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Guerilla warfare brother.

In the case of the VC and Mujahadeen, they had the numbers to win through attrition because their populations could absorb appalling casualty rates.

If you gather up all the voluntarists, they would still be outnumbered by state police and military by a factor of 300 to 1, assuming there are only about 10,000 of us.  And that is just counting those people tasked with carrying out the violent acts of state power.  Given total employees, it is something like 2000 to 1, and if you add people in industries who rely on tax funding, perhaps 5000 to 1.  Then add in all of the people who support jingoism and nationalism and it approaches perhaps 20,000 to 1.

Attrition is not going to win it for us.  That is why we have to take the long term approach.  As soon as some anarchist pulls a gun and does something stupid, we may all be rounded up just from guilt by association.  I reject violence whole-heartily because even talking about it will destroy us faster than anything else we could possible do.

"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting" ~ Obi Wan Kenobi

I concur.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 06:52:50 PM »

Is violence acceptable, meaning justifiable according to my morals, against the State? Yes.

Is it ever a useful tactic? Yes.

Is it a tactic that one should promote at this time? Absolutely not.

The problem is that 95%+ of the population gets their information from the mainstream media or the government. Therefore, if any acts of violence were enacted against the State, the State would either cover up the incident or say that it was some evil bogeyman (terrorists, communists, nazis, etc.) behind the act. The act of violence would only strengthen their side and serve as a justification to expand the State.

 
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