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Author Topic: Animal Rights  (Read 5734 times)
dpalme
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« on: January 07, 2013, 10:36:02 AM »

I'm an animal lover. Cats, dogs, deer, pigs, if it's a furry creature, I have a soft spot for it. I was wondering what you're thoughts on it in an anarchist civilization. What would be the punishment for people like Michael Vick, if any.
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bsg1206
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 11:03:44 AM »

Social ostracization plays a big role in things like this.
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BobRobertson
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 11:15:57 AM »

I'm an animal lover. Cats, dogs, deer, pigs, if it's a furry creature, I have a soft spot for it. I was wondering what you're thoughts on it in an anarchist civilization.

This is a perfect example of the application of the "Social Standard".

As wealth has increased, people's attitudes towards animals has changed. Just like "child labor", the idea of working an animal to death (as an example) has become something abhorrent.

Social ostracization plays a big role in things like this.

Exactly. Don't dismiss the idea of being sued for such things as well.

There is no reason why an individual could not be sued by people who see them mistreating animals and who refuses to sell those animals to people who would help them.

In a society where private property is held to be more important than "animal rights", then such suits fail. But I expect that there are going to be those who will act anyway, because one of the fundamental aspects of "anarchic" order is the defense of the innocent.
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State-God
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 11:55:42 AM »

I've actually come to the conclusion that the only justifiable basis for self ownership is pain, as I think that consciousness and 'self-awareness' are very vague terms that help very little in defining property rights.

I say this, of course, even as I eat a hot dog in between sentences.

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MAM
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 02:21:16 PM »

I had an argument with a vegan about two weeks ago. His argument was that it is unethical to inflict pain on a sentient creature. Since animals are sentient it's unethical.

My response was simple. First plants are sentient, second I'll worry about that when people aren't shit on. Here's the thing with animal rights. We have enough to worry about defending our rights without going around increasing responsibility on a thing that may or may not be legitimate.
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 02:30:00 PM »

I'm an animal lover myself, but Bob has it right. Until we can figure out how to treat other HUMANS with respect, animals don't stand much of a chance.

Take all the PITA people you know. Sit them down. And say look, "if we can't even figure out how to achieve peace with fellow humans, your animals are screwed, so you better learn the NAP."
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 03:20:17 PM »

I'm an animal lover myself, but Bob has it right. Until we can figure out how to treat other HUMANS with respect, animals don't stand much of a chance.

Take all the PITA people you know. Sit them down. And say look, "if we can't even figure out how to achieve peace with fellow humans, your animals are screwed, so you better learn the NAP."

You ever hear of the Animal Liberation Front? Those guys kill people over animal rights. Fucking retards.
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 04:02:01 PM »

I had an argument with a vegan about two weeks ago. His argument was that it is unethical to inflict pain on a sentient creature. Since animals are sentient it's unethical.

My response was simple. First plants are sentient, second I'll worry about that when people aren't shit on. Here's the thing with animal rights. We have enough to worry about defending our rights without going around increasing responsibility on a thing that may or may not be legitimate.

I concur. Also, I hate that word 'sentient'- it's still very vague.

Although I definitely think that a long-term goal should be rights for animals, at the moment I'll gladly be a speciest and say that I'm more concerned with the affairs of humans than I am with animals.
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BobRobertson
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 04:48:17 PM »

You ever hear of the Animal Liberation Front? Those guys kill people over animal rights. Fucking retards.

It's folks like that which gives lethal self defense a GOOD name.
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MAM
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 06:19:29 PM »

You ever hear of the Animal Liberation Front? Those guys kill people over animal rights. Fucking retards.

It's folks like that which gives lethal self defense a GOOD name.
sarcasm?
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

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Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 06:59:48 PM »

MAM I think he wasn't being sarcastic. After all if the ALF loons attacked and tried to kill you over "animal rights" because of how damn delusional and just plain stupid they are, you'd be doing the gene pool and thus the entirety of the human species a favor by killing them in self-defense before they could reproduce, or if they already have, before they could reproduce further. At least, that's what I'm assuming he meant. Tongue

And honestly, I'm not overly interested in "animal rights" Primates aside from people, especially those like gorillas and chimpanzees? Yeah but only because of studies shown that in the right circumstances they can be quite "human" in some psychological aspects, albeit a "young human". In that regard look up Washoe the female chimpanzee for info on that.

Dogs and cats too, I like, and detest seeing them treated badly by their owners, and would be quite willing to use non-violent means to prevent such issues, or to punish those owners who do abuse their pets. But all the other animals on this planet? I don't particularly care, aside from wanting to make sure many of them don't go extinct, even if they can only exist in zoos and what not, though some species wouldn't have to worry about such for a good long time, if it wasn't for over-hunting and habitat destruction... Hell, I'll kill quite a few species of animals myself, since I am a hunter at heart, and love doing so, though I avoid "over-hunting". Deer hunting, rabbit hunting, waterfowl and turkey hunting, the occasional black bear hunt up north, hog hunting. I love to go on such hunts, and then, if and when I shoot said animal whether with a firearm or a bow and arrow, to once I've butchered the carcass eat it. Nothing like venison steak or burgers, or venison chili or tacos where the venison came from a deer you shot yourself, or having the traditional Thanksgiving Turkey dinner with a turkey that's only been dead a week or so, and that you shot yourself.

But to cut this short so I don't ramble (more than I already have in some people's opinions most likely) I'm thinking it would be a community based thing. Some communities would have very strict standards about such behaviors, that to live in the community you'd have to agree to prior to doing so, unless you were born there, at which point they'd wait until some community-variant age for you to decide whether to stay or not. Others would have very, very lenient standards regarding treatment of animals, and may even encourage such things as dog-fighting or cock-fighting, and sadistic treatment of animals. Of course most people would probably not trade with them if that were the case. So in all honesty it's vary based on the community and what the individuals who lived as part of said community wanted and could agree on.
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BobRobertson
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 08:42:14 AM »

you'd be doing the gene pool and thus the entirety of the human species a favor by killing them in self-defense before they could reproduce

Thank you, yes, that is what I meant. It was not well said, I could have been much more explicit.

I, also, get viscerally wound up by how some people treat their animals. It is my moral hazard that "this time" it's ok to trespass, to take someone's property, to punish them for the pain/neglect/abuse of what they thought was their own property.

But it is for exactly that reason that principle must be followed. Leviathan grows because of these little things, these small abrogations of the principle of private property, each one seemingly trivial or "really important this time", which in the end brings down what was Liberty.
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MAM
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 12:39:06 PM »

you'd be doing the gene pool and thus the entirety of the human species a favor by killing them in self-defense before they could reproduce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA
Thank you, yes, that is what I meant. It was not well said, I could have been much more explicit.

I, also, get viscerally wound up by how some people treat their animals. It is my moral hazard that "this time" it's ok to trespass, to take someone's property, to punish them for the pain/neglect/abuse of what they thought was their own property.

But it is for exactly that reason that principle must be followed. Leviathan grows because of these little things, these small abrogations of the principle of private property, each one seemingly trivial or "really important this time", which in the end brings down what was Liberty.

I know what you mean. I love my dogs and I spoil them accordingly and when I see others treat theirs like shit it angers me.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2013, 01:09:36 AM »

Take all the PITA people you know. Sit them down. And say look, "gyros totally kick ass. You better start making a lot more of that bread."
Yeah...
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dpalme
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2013, 08:50:20 AM »

hahahahahahahahahahahah
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