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Author Topic: Changing history  (Read 6275 times)
State-God
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« on: November 12, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »

Hey everyone, this is my first post on here (I WAS on the Mises.com forums, but they've buggered out on me and I can't login anymore...)!

So I have an interesting question. If you could travel back in time, where would you go to try and change history (think along the lines of Orson Card's "Pastwatch") to either enhance the cause of anarchism or something else along those lines?

The event I would choose to change would be the American Revolution. Namely, I would try to have it not occur (the most preferable method being convincing the British parliament to give America seats early on). My logic goes as follows:

Without the American Revolution occurring, France would not have entered against the British. Without the French entering, France's bankruptcy would have been avoided, pushing the French Revolution away by several decades, or at least making it noticeably less radical than it turned out in our timeline.

Without the French Revolution occurring as it did, the proto-Socialist school could not have arisen (or at least become as widespread), which would have caused the Marxian school (or it's equivalent in this new timeline) to not appear for at least a few decades after it did in our timeline.

Without Socialist schools of thought taking root in Economics departments the world over, the revitalization of Free Market capitalism (by the Chicago and Austrian schools) would have had much less resistance.

The results of such a timeline could have been phenomenal. Without Socialist trends of thought present (or as deeply rooted as they were), World War One would have been much less likely to occur, with the following Second World War being even less likely (as it would not have socialist thoughts and the previous world war fueling it into existence). But these are only two large examples I could think of.

TL;DR, I'd stop the Socialist schools of thought from forming in the time they did.

Anyways, enough of my rambling- what would YOU change?
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MAM
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 04:19:25 PM »

I'd go back to settling the west times and start a colony of voluntaryists. Shit if we're gonna dream let's do it big. Take a few SAWs a few M16s and grenades and shit on the inferior tech of those who would aggress against us.
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 04:46:35 PM »

I'm not sure there is any one thing worth changing.  I'm convinced that socialism, to more or lesser degrees is inherent in human psychology.  Plenty of people want socialism and Marxism and fascism in part at least, even while claiming to be against them. 

I also can't imagine that me alone would have much/any influence. 
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MAM
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 05:00:01 PM »

I'm not sure there is any one thing worth changing.  I'm convinced that socialism, to more or lesser degrees is inherent in human psychology.  Plenty of people want socialism and Marxism and fascism in part at least, even while claiming to be against them. 

I also can't imagine that me alone would have much/any influence. 

A .338 lapua chambered rifle with a nice scope and few hundred rounds and your sail boat is like God only real... With that kind of power you could make the world anything you wanted if you went back in time far enough.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Syock
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 05:09:41 PM »

A .338 lapua chambered rifle with a nice scope and few hundred rounds and your sail boat is like God only real... With that kind of power you could make the world anything you wanted if you went back in time far enough.

So, go back to ancient Greece and tell them.  "You will not live in a democracy!  I am Zeus and I say you will live in Ancap!"  That would be a dictatorship. 

Every civilization around the world developed its own form of one guy telling everyone else how to live.  Someone benefiting off the work of others without compensation. 
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State-God
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 05:18:49 PM »

I'm not sure there is any one thing worth changing.  I'm convinced that socialism, to more or lesser degrees is inherent in human psychology.  Plenty of people want socialism and Marxism and fascism in part at least, even while claiming to be against them. 

I also can't imagine that me alone would have much/any influence. 

True; but a bullet here and a bullet here (or maybe even a long and life-changing conversation depending on who it is) can reroute how intellectual trends occur and how they manifest themselves in various ideologies. So while having a small cadre of time travelers might accomplish quite a lot, a single individual giving George Washington a copy of Human Action may change quite a lot of things.
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 05:29:49 PM »

True; but a bullet here and a bullet here (or maybe even a long and life-changing conversation depending on who it is) can reroute how intellectual trends occur and how they manifest themselves in various ideologies. So while having a small cadre of time travelers might accomplish quite a lot, a single individual giving George Washington a copy of Human Action may change quite a lot of things.

What causes you to believe Washington would have wanted Ancap, even after reading something like Human Action?  He came from a wealthy family.  Wealthy families in that time were wealthy because the King of England allowed them to own a good deal of land.  The system was working for him.  (As it did for all the founders.)  It worked for him even better when he essentially started his own country and got to tell everyone else what to do.  

By the way, welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 05:34:30 PM »

True; but a bullet here and a bullet here (or maybe even a long and life-changing conversation depending on who it is) can reroute how intellectual trends occur and how they manifest themselves in various ideologies. So while having a small cadre of time travelers might accomplish quite a lot, a single individual giving George Washington a copy of Human Action may change quite a lot of things.

What causes you to believe Washington would have wanted Ancap, even after reading something like Human Action?  He came from a wealthy family.  Wealthy families in that time were wealthy because the King of England allowed them to own a good deal of land.  The system was working for him.  (As it did for all the founders.)  It worked for him even better when he essentially started his own country and got to tell everyone else what to do.  

By the way, welcome to the forum!

I say that going back in time with a group of people is better than a lone because even though he is right about how effect a bullet or conversation can be how do we know exactly how it's gonna effect things.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
State-God
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 06:02:27 PM »

Thanks for the welcome! Also, the Washington thing was just an example- if given a copy of Human Action I'd find it highly likely he'd react like a Prussian Junker and toss it out the window. Maybe Hamilton would be a better choice...there's the slimmest possibility you could turn him away from central banking :S

Also also, not to get too bogged down in time travel discussion, the only advantage having a group gives is that you can be changing multiple factors at the same time (ex. killing both Hitler and Stalin on the same day). At the end of the day you DON'T know how people will react to stimuli- as Mises teaches us, humans are far too complex to be able to predict with absolute certainty what they will do in response to stimuli. The best we can do is make a logical guess based on what we know about the person's psyche.
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 06:04:32 PM »

Would you really need a group of time travelers to do multiple things at the same time?   Just go back in time a few hours and start the day over.  heheh
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 06:56:04 PM »

Would you really need a group of time travelers to do multiple things at the same time?   Just go back in time a few hours and start the day over.  heheh

You could be immortal because you recycled time!
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 08:53:21 PM »

Marx's ideas gained traction because they were directly applicable to the lives of people trying to get enough money to feed there kids, and someday get some dignity. Say what you will about the modern labor movement, it arose out of people fighting for there lives, in the most literal sense.
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 08:56:46 PM »

Would you really need a group of time travelers to do multiple things at the same time?   Just go back in time a few hours and start the day over.  heheh

time travel makes my head hurt
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 09:05:23 PM »

Marx's ideas gained traction because they were directly applicable to the lives of people trying to get enough money to feed there kids, and someday get some dignity. Say what you will about the modern labor movement, it arose out of people fighting for there lives, in the most literal sense.

They were likely dealing with fascism.  By the way, you are off topic.  What would you change in history?
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David Giessel
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »

When we talk about settling the world's problems, we're barking up the wrong tree. The world is perfect. It's a mess. It has always been a mess. We are not going to change it. Our job is to straighten out our own lives.

-Joseph Campbell
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