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Author Topic: Stef has gone overboard  (Read 18191 times)
SinCityVoluntaryist
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« on: September 05, 2012, 12:57:36 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRuBO_VbGFI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRuBO_VbGFI</a>

 Look, I'll be the first to say that I love Stef and what he does. However, that doesn't excuse him from making mistakes.

 Let me explain what this is about. On Stef's Sunday call-in show, a guest stated that he was taking martial arts, and wanted to get Stefan's opinion of whether it was acceptable to engage in an art that teaches hitting. Stef decideas to go full on psychotherapist at this point and lambasts martial arts because of its use of violence in engaging individuals. He then (and this is where it gets ugly) stated that people who engage in martial arts are actually hiding emotional trauma from abuse that they may had suffered at the hands of their parents or classmates. Now, as you can probably imagine, this statement has set off a firestorm. People have been dissenting against Stef for his comments, and I for one am one of those people.

 To state outright that people who engage in martial arts are broken individuals who simply want to hide their violence with violence is just outright disrespect. It also shows that Stef has absolutely zero understanding of what martial arts is. Number one, martial arts is not a getaway fantasy for people who want to hide their emotional scars. It is a rich, deep traditional with ties going back centuries to the ancient shaolin temples. To label that as nothing more than a cover-up for your scars is complete and utter intellectual dishonesty. Secondly, martial arts does not condone violence. If you've taken karate in any of its variations, then you know that one of the key tenets that your teachers will (and should) teach you is to avoid violent confrontation and seek a peaceful resolution to matters. Self-defense should only be used when you know an attack will come. Martial arts is meant to teach self-respect, self-discipline, and in many ways, self-knowledge. Martial arts, in many respects, is a form of philosophy. It's just more of a philosophy for the body. This and final, it seems that Stef is unaware that martial arts was influenced by the teachings of Buddhism. The founder of Zen, Daruma, influenced the defense of the east with many of his teachings. This is historically accurate, and can be looked up within a few minutes of your time.

 As someone who took the arts of the east for years and who grew with extremely loving parents who never hit, I feel that Stef has bitten off more than he can chew here. He's exposing himself as some sort of pacifist with his lecturing on psychotherapy this and that. I also find it highly unusual that a man who believes in the defense of property would attack something that TEACHES you how to defend your most important property: your body.

 What do you guys thing of what Stef is saying? If you need to, you can go on Youtube and look up the other videos. Is Stef right about self-defense, or is he full of hot air?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:08:25 PM by BlackandGr9y » Logged

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BobRobertson
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 01:54:59 PM »

Stef has indeed taken it too far, but I think he is doing so based upon his own bias and ignorance.

Stef is one of those "guns are icky" people. So what he says on the subject of arms is going to be effected by that bias.

While I agree with what he's trying to say about people drawn to the sports of violence, that they could be fascinated with people hurting each other because of childhood trauma (as one person I know certainly was), he then goes on to paint with that broad brush everyone and anything involved with "martial arts".

I am reminded by the words of Master Chang from the Kung Fu TV show, when Grasshopper asks, "Why are we learning to fight?"

"A man of peace walks without weapons, but not unarmed. Each finger, a dagger. Each arm, a sword. We learn violence not to resort to it, but to deal with people who do."

(paraphrased from memory, it was a _long_ time ago)

The true masters I have met myself have always been people who are at peace with themselves and the world, yet they carry the knowledge and self-mastery to deal with whatever comes up. These are not actors who have to be "aggressive for the camera", or who choose to go into a ring to bloody another person without cause. They are quiet and friendly, because they know themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD66986D630228274

While I didn't find the exact quote I wanted in the playlist above (or just didn't see it), The Tao of Kung Fu #4 reiterates it well. "Peace is prized above victory."

And, just because it embodies how I see learning martial arts (not just Oriental fighting),

http://www.winjutsu.com/warrior-creed.html

The Warrior Creed by Robert L. Humphrey
(Marine Rifle Platoon Commander on Iwo Jima & Bujinkan 10th Dan)

Wherever I go,
everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
everyone is happy I am there.


"It's a better life!"
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Seth King
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »

My attitude is that he may be right about martial artists having been somewhat traumatized in their youth. But so what? According to Stefan pretty much everybody was traumatized in their youth in one way or another, from parents, to school yard bullies, to the state, etc. So, pretty much everything we do as individuals, including watching movies or eating ice cream is done by people who were traumatized in their youth.

Maybe Stefan wasn't traumatized in his youth and sees no reason to learn martial arts. I think Stefan may be in for a rude awakening one day if and or when the shit hits the fan. Learning martial arts is a simple response to dangerous situations. Hell, if it weren't for the state does anyone here think Stefan would still be an internet philosopher? I don't.

Stefan is a very cerebral/aphysical type of a person who may very well be jealous of those individuals who embody physical superiority to him. How's that for psychoanalysis?
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SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »

From what I've read, Stefan was raised in an abusive relationship with mother, who apparently beat the shit out of him on more than one occasion. He's apparently used that as his primary motivator for his psychoanalysis podcasts on the human mind. The problem, however, is that Stefan's so-called "psychoanalysis" goes from being somewhat rational to down right insulting and even dangerous. His basic outlook is that people who were led to voluntaryism or anarchy in general were abused by their parents and have to disconnect from them to be happy. He and his most die-hard followers apparently call this method defooing, or disconnecting from one's family or origin. One of his books, On Truth, seems to cover this idea further. Now, I recognize that parents make mistakes. My parents certainly did things that I would change if and when I become a parent myself. I also agree with his views on peaceful parenting. However, to actively engage in the process of disconnecting people from their families and treat it as a form of rational psychotherapy is so extreme that it literally crosses the boundaries of what is and isn't ethical. For a man that likes to hold the study of ethics as one of the most virtuous of sciences, I find this rather ironic.

 I agree with Seth. If this guy thinks that his over extreme, pacifist based philosophy is going to apply to people when the shit hits the fan, he is going to be in for a RUDE awakening.
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 12:16:02 PM »

I listened to a few minutes of his explanations and the follow up rebuttal and then just shut it off. He doesn't seem to get past the "I don't understand the hitting" point and I didn't feel like wasting 20 minutes of my time to see if he would. As someone who's been in the martial arts for most of my life, I can say that for me it has nothing to do with past trauma. The world is a dangerous place and knowing how to defend myself with my hands and feet if I get separated from my firearm provides me with piece of mind. Anyone who voluntarily practices martial arts is not violating the NAP so what does he care? There are people like myself that don't violate the NAP, but quite frankly do enjoy the violence of getting in the cage with someone and beating each other up. I've been dropped with shots in training before and will roll around in agony thinking my kidney or liver has just been ruptured while laughing the during the pain because I know I should have covered up. Some of us are just wired differently than others.

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MAM
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 10:57:13 PM »

Fuck Stefan Molyneux.
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r3VOLutionRefugee
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 03:32:45 AM »

Fuck Stefan Molyneux.

Seriously people?  THAT is what I call going overboard.  Everybody step back from the ledge for a minute.

First of all, to the OP--did you send that response to Stef?  He said he got 20,000 responses in one form or another and no one stated that they enjoyed martial arts and didn't have a notably abusive childhood, so that makes me curious. 

I agree that he's probably off base here, but first let me diffuse the mob.

1. To my knowledge he has never been particularly negative on gun ownership, and has certainly never opposed it morally.  And he is certainly not a pacifist, and has very clearly supported the moral justification for self defense.

2. Yes, he was a very abused child, and no longer has contact with his family.  No, he does not preach cutting off family ties to be happy.  He does advocate having honest, frank discussions with family abusers (usually parents) about the abuse to let them know how you honestly feel, with the hope that healing can begin, along with a stronger, healthy relationship.  However, if that person refuses to acknowledge that they hurt you or made mistakes, THEN you should cut ties like you should with any abusive relationship.

3. Lets at least make sure we aren't placing words in his mouth.  He isn't saying that this is immoral, or violates NAP.  He is making the argument that it is emotionally unhealthy for the participant.

That being said, I think he's wrong on this one.  As Seth pointed out, most people have suffered childhood trauma, so its a pretty poor indicator for explaining an affinity for martial arts.  Plus, many team sports involve some form of hitting.  Football, hockey, rugby, etc.  I think he doesn't understand the appeal, and is going overboard with psychoanalysis, even though I think he's usually pretty good with that. 

But lets not go overboard ourselves.  This is ONE issue that I disagree with him on.  That does not discredit the massive body of work he has done for the Liberty movement, anarchism in particular.  Its a minor issue at that.  He isn't declaring a moral rule or principal, he's just putting forward a hypothesis that martial arts is unhealthy.  So disagree with him and watch his other stuff, cuz its damn good.
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MAM
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 03:55:29 AM »

Fuck Stefan Molyneux.

Seriously people?  THAT is what I call going overboard.  Everybody step back from the ledge for a minute.

First of all, to the OP--did you send that response to Stef?  He said he got 20,000 responses in one form or another and no one stated that they enjoyed martial arts and didn't have a notably abusive childhood, so that makes me curious. 

I agree that he's probably off base here, but first let me diffuse the mob.

1. To my knowledge he has never been particularly negative on gun ownership, and has certainly never opposed it morally.  And he is certainly not a pacifist, and has very clearly supported the moral justification for self defense.

2. Yes, he was a very abused child, and no longer has contact with his family.  No, he does not preach cutting off family ties to be happy.  He does advocate having honest, frank discussions with family abusers (usually parents) about the abuse to let them know how you honestly feel, with the hope that healing can begin, along with a stronger, healthy relationship.  However, if that person refuses to acknowledge that they hurt you or made mistakes, THEN you should cut ties like you should with any abusive relationship.

3. Lets at least make sure we aren't placing words in his mouth.  He isn't saying that this is immoral, or violates NAP.  He is making the argument that it is emotionally unhealthy for the participant.

That being said, I think he's wrong on this one.  As Seth pointed out, most people have suffered childhood trauma, so its a pretty poor indicator for explaining an affinity for martial arts.  Plus, many team sports involve some form of hitting.  Football, hockey, rugby, etc.  I think he doesn't understand the appeal, and is going overboard with psychoanalysis, even though I think he's usually pretty good with that. 

But lets not go overboard ourselves.  This is ONE issue that I disagree with him on.  That does not discredit the massive body of work he has done for the Liberty movement, anarchism in particular.  Its a minor issue at that.  He isn't declaring a moral rule or principal, he's just putting forward a hypothesis that martial arts is unhealthy.  So disagree with him and watch his other stuff, cuz its damn good.

Again 1 more time Fuck Stefan Molyneux. He's a POS
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Seth King
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 09:52:56 AM »

I haven't run across a new Stefan video that I've liked in several months. It's got to be hard because he's this huge internet success, and he's already said it all. Okay, he's hasn't said it all. There will always be more to say. But it comes to a point where unless he's coming up with all new radical ideas constantly, then he's just repeating himself constantly, which is a real drag.

So, it could very well be that he's under pressure to say something new, even at the price of being wrong.
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r3VOLutionRefugee
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 07:18:18 PM »

I haven't run across a new Stefan video that I've liked in several months. It's got to be hard because he's this huge internet success, and he's already said it all. Okay, he's hasn't said it all. There will always be more to say. But it comes to a point where unless he's coming up with all new radical ideas constantly, then he's just repeating himself constantly, which is a real drag.

So, it could very well be that he's under pressure to say something new, even at the price of being wrong.

Yeah, this seems like a situation where he had a spontaneous idea/hypothesis pop into his head during a conversation, and decided to go all in to defend it in a span of 2 days.

And I can see the repeating himself thing.  I still get quite a bit out of his stuff though.  I'd also like to see what his documentary looks like next month.  It won't be anything new, but it would be cool for ancaps to have their own zeitgiest-style movie to pass around.
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SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 10:07:00 PM »

I agree with Seth. He hasn't really done anything new over the past few months. In fact, nothing big has come out of the liberty movement in quite some time.

I'm also looking forward to his doc. The current trailers for it look really good.
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »

You realize he is the leader of a cult, right? That people have disowned their families, friends, and sometimes even killed themselves because of influence from FDR? That he believes you should emotionally blackmail (he doesn't call it that) anyone who is not or will not become part of FDR? Cults tend to do that, making it seem like "DeFOO"ing and such is always a good idea, and to rely on other cult members for emotional support would be much better.

So +1 MAM.

Quote
No, he does not preach cutting off family ties to be happy.
This is provably false:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vkswPpN_gM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vkswPpN_gM</a>
Seriously, watching that video a second time makes me feel like he is insane.

Also, just seach "Defoo" into google and look at all the forum results.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 11:49:16 AM by Hanzo » Logged

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Hanzo
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »



Shameless plug for anyone in the Houston area:
www.anarchyjiujitsu.com
No no, you are wrong. You are hiding past childhood trauma. Stefan Molyneux is the world's leading expert in psychology. /sarcasm
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Seth King
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 12:00:35 PM »

I disagree with you about Molyneux. Insane? Come on! The rest of the world is insane. I also have no problem with the idea of limiting the number of people I hang out with to those who share my principles. Quality over quantity.

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r3VOLutionRefugee
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 12:07:14 PM »


This is provably false:


Sorry, but there is a complete disconnect between your accusations, the truth, and the contents of that rather awesome video.
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