C4SS- I don't get it

[Hanzo]

This site has some good articles, but too far left for my tastes. Thoughts?

[Syock]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism. 

[SinCityVoluntaryist]

 C4ss does have a leftist idealism to it. However, they do have some nice articles. Their attacks on the corporate capitalist system do make sense, and they seem to understand that such a corporate, oligarchical structure exists because of government involvement. I don't agree with all of their conclusions, but there is some food for thought in what they say.  

 Also, Carson, one of the main writers for the site, has nothing against anarcho-capitalists, who he views as individuals who are also fighting against the crony capitalist system that we currently have in place.

[AgoristTeen1994]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism. 

their definition of capitalism =/= your definition of capitalism. The one they use is the "historically correct" one that was commonly used in the 19th century, at least in the U.S. Most if not all of the people at C4SS are NOT opposed to free markets, but what they see as capitalism which in their minds, does NOT equal free market.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

If you're interested, I'd recommend reading their FAQ. It helps clear up where their authors stand.

[MAM]

Thinking hurts my head, I try not to do it. That's why we have leaders, to do our thinking for us.

[Syock]

Thinking hurts my head, I try not to do it. That's why we have leaders, to do our thinking for us.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOZ-Etb0k0Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOZ-Etb0k0Q</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio</a>

[victim77]

I love C4SS. A great perspective on free market anarchism.

[Syock]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism.  

their definition of capitalism =/= your definition of capitalism. The one they use is the "historically correct" one that was commonly used in the 19th century, at least in the U.S. Most if not all of the people at C4SS are NOT opposed to free markets, but what they see as capitalism which in their minds, does NOT equal free market.

A free market wouldn't try to say what structure an organization can take.  That is why I have issues with them.  I don't mind if there are organizations how they want them.  To claim other voluntary structures are bad though... that is not free market.  

The "historically correct" view of capitalism also combined it with democracy.  If that is what they think ancap's are, they are not reading half the name.  They are not bothering to figure out what we mean. 

[MAM]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism.  

their definition of capitalism =/= your definition of capitalism. The one they use is the "historically correct" one that was commonly used in the 19th century, at least in the U.S. Most if not all of the people at C4SS are NOT opposed to free markets, but what they see as capitalism which in their minds, does NOT equal free market.

A free market wouldn't try to say what structure an organization can take.  That is why I have issues with them.  I don't mind if there are organizations how they want them.  To claim other voluntary structures are bad though... that is not free market.  

The "historically correct" view of capitalism also combined it with democracy.  If that is what they think ancap's are, they are not reading half the name.  They are not bothering to figure out what we mean. 

Does it matter what they bother to do? We can only save ourselves, the ignorant will remain ignorant regardless of what we tell them. That is why I despise ignorance, because anyone who is ignorant is wilfully so. They have eyes but cannot see.

What are histories but accounts? And what are accounts but flawed perceptions bearing weight undeserved?

This is not to say that history is useless only that it is flawed and should acknowledged as such. The histories are all tainted by bias this is part of what they are...

[victim77]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism.  

their definition of capitalism =/= your definition of capitalism. The one they use is the "historically correct" one that was commonly used in the 19th century, at least in the U.S. Most if not all of the people at C4SS are NOT opposed to free markets, but what they see as capitalism which in their minds, does NOT equal free market.

A free market wouldn't try to say what structure an organization can take.  That is why I have issues with them.  I don't mind if there are organizations how they want them.  To claim other voluntary structures are bad though... that is not free market.  

The "historically correct" view of capitalism also combined it with democracy.  If that is what they think ancap's are, they are not reading half the name.  They are not bothering to figure out what we mean. 

They are on the same side of ancaps. They are voluntarist, they just believe that top down corporate hierarchies are not as efficient in a free market than horizontally organized co-ops and the like. Please, do not dismiss them, we need to stick together. They do not advocate any more force than you and I do. That should be good enough for all ancaps.

[MAM]

Every time I have looked at it, it has been anti-capitalism.  

their definition of capitalism =/= your definition of capitalism. The one they use is the "historically correct" one that was commonly used in the 19th century, at least in the U.S. Most if not all of the people at C4SS are NOT opposed to free markets, but what they see as capitalism which in their minds, does NOT equal free market.

A free market wouldn't try to say what structure an organization can take.  That is why I have issues with them.  I don't mind if there are organizations how they want them.  To claim other voluntary structures are bad though... that is not free market.  

The "historically correct" view of capitalism also combined it with democracy.  If that is what they think ancap's are, they are not reading half the name.  They are not bothering to figure out what we mean. 

They are on the same side of ancaps. They are voluntarist, they just believe that top down corporate hierarchies are not as efficient in a free market than horizontally organized co-ops and the like. Please, do not dismiss them, we need to stick together. They do not advocate any more force than you and I do. That should be good enough for all ancaps.

Like I said on another post. I don't care if the companies are mutalist or capitalist so long as the market is free. I don't think mutalism will work, but reality exists independent of conciousness, so what I think doesn't matter. So long as violence isn't used we don't have a problem.

[Syock]

They are on the same side of ancaps. They are voluntarist, they just believe that top down corporate hierarchies are not as efficient in a free market than horizontally organized co-ops and the like. Please, do not dismiss them, we need to stick together. They do not advocate any more force than you and I do. That should be good enough for all ancaps.

We cannot speak of individual freedom and free communities, self-reliance and self-responsibility, while honoring the assembly line, promoting urban demolition, and making fetish of commodities. We cannot speak of honest work while honest working people are alienated from the work and treated as mere extensions of their machines.

We cannot speak of a sweet land of liberty when the very land is soured by greed of those who turn the landscape into real estate...

We can’t predict the details of how free people will choose to organize provision of these services. The forms of such organization would be an open-ended matter, subject to free experimentation and resulting diversity.

  Basically, to put it crudely, an anarchist doesn’t let a corporation or a syndicate or a commune tell them jack shit.  Things like property rights and debts and contracts will be much more nebulous than they are in a system where they are predefined by a strict centralized law code enforced by cops, but more tangible and solid than they are in a system where an elite group can willy-nilly revoke them at will.

They sound like ancoms, with a touch of the hippies.  As I have said before, I like the hippies.  The ancoms seem like trouble though, with their intent on destroying voluntary associations, agreements, contracts, property etc that take a form they do not approve of.  These guys seem like something in-between. 

[victim77]

They are on the same side of ancaps. They are voluntarist, they just believe that top down corporate hierarchies are not as efficient in a free market than horizontally organized co-ops and the like. Please, do not dismiss them, we need to stick together. They do not advocate any more force than you and I do. That should be good enough for all ancaps.

We cannot speak of individual freedom and free communities, self-reliance and self-responsibility, while honoring the assembly line, promoting urban demolition, and making fetish of commodities. We cannot speak of honest work while honest working people are alienated from the work and treated as mere extensions of their machines.

We cannot speak of a sweet land of liberty when the very land is soured by greed of those who turn the landscape into real estate...

We can’t predict the details of how free people will choose to organize provision of these services. The forms of such organization would be an open-ended matter, subject to free experimentation and resulting diversity.

  Basically, to put it crudely, an anarchist doesn’t let a corporation or a syndicate or a commune tell them jack shit.  Things like property rights and debts and contracts will be much more nebulous than they are in a system where they are predefined by a strict centralized law code enforced by cops, but more tangible and solid than they are in a system where an elite group can willy-nilly revoke them at will.

They sound like ancoms, with a touch of the hippies.  As I have said before, I like the hippies.  The ancoms seem like trouble though, with their intent on destroying voluntary associations, agreements, contracts, property etc that take a form they do not approve of.  These guys seem like something in-between. 

Look up Kevin Carson and Gary Chartier. Also look at Rodrick Long's "reaching out to the left" video. It explains alot.

[Syock]

Look up Kevin Carson and Gary Chartier. Also look at Rodrick Long's "reaching out to the left" video. It explains alot.

Will do.