Daily Anarchist Forum
October 27, 2021, 11:06:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome to the Daily Anarchist Forum!
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14
  Print  
Author Topic: Converting an anarcho-communist  (Read 70763 times)
assasin7
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 516


View Profile
« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2012, 10:05:59 PM »

And that's why we create societies that are voluntary and allow people to organize in the way that we see fit, so long as they don't aggress against other individuals and force them to accept their way of thinking.

Personally, I don't understand something. If you hate property so much, why do you bother to surround yourself with it? For example, you live in a home that your parents own. That, by nature, is the property that they obtained through a contract agreement with the bank that set up their mortage. If you think having that property is some great, immoral act against God and mankind, why do you live in it? Move out if it makes you feel better. What about all the stuff that you own? You know, the stuff that was made on the free market? If you feel guilty about having property,get rid of it. Go share in some collective co op if that's what you want.

Personally, I like having property. I enjoy making money and using that money to buy the things that I want. I enjoy the prospect of having my own house and organizing my life in the way that I see fit. If I'm being immoral for feeling that way, then I'll gladly take my place in Hell.

I believe in occupancy and use property, I believe it is the least oppressive. Voluntary Agreements can only be made among equals, a bank is in position of power over a loan applicant, just as a mugger is in a position of power over a person.
Logged

"owning a fire arm, that's a hanging offense"
"then go hang yourself"
assasin7
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 516


View Profile
« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2012, 10:15:01 PM »

And that's why we create societies that are voluntary and allow people to organize in the way that we see fit, so long as they don't aggress against other individuals and force them to accept their way of thinking.

Personally, I don't understand something. If you hate property so much, why do you bother to surround yourself with it? For example, you live in a home that your parents own. That, by nature, is the property that they obtained through a contract agreement with the bank that set up their mortage. If you think having that property is some great, immoral act against God and mankind, why do you live in it? Move out if it makes you feel better. What about all the stuff that you own? You know, the stuff that was made on the free market? If you feel guilty about having property,get rid of it. Go share in some collective co op if that's what you want.

Personally, I like having property. I enjoy making money and using that money to buy the things that I want. I enjoy the prospect of having my own house and organizing my life in the way that I see fit. If I'm being immoral for feeling that way, then I'll gladly take my place in Hell.

In regards to what you said towards assasin7 I agree with a lot of it. I do however disagree with the part about "What about all the stuff you own? You know, the stuff that was made on the free market" I disagree with that on two counts. 1. We are about as far from a free market as is possible in a state capitalist/corporatist system as we have in the U.S. 2. From my understanding communism takes how a family works, i.e. sharing the land your live on but having your own living spaces, and possessions, and apply it to the community. To put it another way, in a anarcho-communist community, the land and any factories and such would be communally owned. things such as tools for artisans, and small-time crafters, and possessions such as the numerous books, guns and ammunition, electronics et cetera I own would be MINE. If somewhere were to take them without my permission or damage them, then depending on the community, there would be hell to pay. So basically ancoms when they say property, refer to stuff like land and the resources of the land, as well as factories. Stuff like your bedroom in a home or apartment, and your stuff, like books, guns, electronics, etc. would be yours, and yours alone. At least unless you gave them to someone else.


A family is more state capitalist (state is only capitalist) than communist
Logged

"owning a fire arm, that's a hanging offense"
"then go hang yourself"
SinCityVoluntaryist
Left Rothbardian against the corporate state; Ron Paulian against the empire
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1238



View Profile
« Reply #182 on: October 12, 2012, 10:48:00 PM »

Trade can only be done among equals? No. You cannot possibly believe that, right? If you truly, honestly believe that, riddle me this: how do you define the relationship between an individual and a business? A business and an individual are unequal with each other because the individual running the business has more manpower, tools, and capital than the lone person buying his product. Yet, it is from this inequality that the business is able to develop a product that betters the life of the individual in question. Tell me, if equality existed in the market place, how could businesses expand and create better competition for better service? How could they properly meet consumer demand when it expands?

 Egiltarianism is a revolt against the foundations of nature itself. We're taught from very young ages that within nature itself, no two snow flakes are alike. Inequality exists everywhere. To deny that is to deny the foundations of nature.

Secondly, people are not slaves to banks. If a person doesn't like the home he's in, he has a right, under the contract between him and the bank, to sell his house and seek property somewhere else. No one is forcing him to keep the property in question.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 10:52:40 PM by SinCityVoluntaryist » Logged

<iframe src="http://c4ss.org/c4ssnews/js1.0/c4ssnewsobject.html?ctc=eef467&clc=f4f367" id="c4niframe" width="160" height="360" style="margin: 0px;" scrolling="no" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Support the Molinari Institute:
http://praxeology.net/molinari.htm
Syock
Epic
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2427


Existing Beyond Time


View Profile WWW
« Reply #183 on: October 12, 2012, 11:00:46 PM »



http://dailyanarchist.com/forum/index.php/topic,1451.msg10397.html#msg10397

http://dailyanarchist.com/forum/index.php/topic,1398.msg9394.html#msg9394
Logged

SinCityVoluntaryist
Left Rothbardian against the corporate state; Ron Paulian against the empire
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1238



View Profile
« Reply #184 on: October 12, 2012, 11:09:22 PM »

I know, I'm wasting my time. Still, someone is wrong on the Internet. What would you like me to do?
Logged

<iframe src="http://c4ss.org/c4ssnews/js1.0/c4ssnewsobject.html?ctc=eef467&clc=f4f367" id="c4niframe" width="160" height="360" style="margin: 0px;" scrolling="no" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Support the Molinari Institute:
http://praxeology.net/molinari.htm
JustSayNoToStatism
Daily Anarchist Crew
Hero Member
****
*****
Posts: 1747


View Profile
« Reply #185 on: October 14, 2012, 09:49:58 PM »

Voluntary Agreements can only be made among equals...
You should define the equality operator. What makes two people equal? Are you and I equal?
Am I, from 20 minutes ago, equal to my current self?
Logged

"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
-MAM
BobRobertson
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 495



View Profile
« Reply #186 on: October 15, 2012, 09:50:10 AM »

1. We are about as far from a free market as is possible in a state capitalist/corporatist system as we have in the U.S.

Having dealt with people who lived in the USSR and China, I must disagree with you.

The regulatory environment certainly puts vast restrictions on market activities, but until you've experienced price controls and rationing, you cannot understand just how bad things can be.

Quote
2. From my understanding communism takes how a family works, i.e. sharing the land your live on but having your own living spaces, and possessions, and apply it to the community. To put it another way, in a anarcho-communist community, the land and any factories and such would be communally owned. things such as tools for artisans, and small-time crafters, and possessions such as the numerous books, guns and ammunition, electronics et cetera I own would be MINE. If somewhere were to take them without my permission or damage them, then depending on the community, there would be hell to pay.

The operative phrase is "depending on the community".

Once the principle of private property ceases to be recognized, it becomes just a matter of opinion. Your tools are yours, you say? That's private property! That's exclusionary! You're creating artificial scarcity! etc.

Quote
So basically ancoms when they say property, refer to stuff like land and the resources of the land, as well as factories. Stuff like your bedroom in a home or apartment, and your stuff, like books, guns, electronics, etc. would be yours, and yours alone. At least unless you gave them to someone else.

"...as well as factories." Oh, and kitchens, since people make things there. And cars, since everyone needs a car. Oops, since the cars are all broken now, bicycles are common property. And tools, now that the bicycles need fixing. Woops, need a fry-pan, I'll just use that one... etc.

There is a really painful movie, banned in China, called "To Live". I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Logged
BobRobertson
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 495



View Profile
« Reply #187 on: October 15, 2012, 09:53:50 AM »

Voluntary Agreements can only be made among equals, a bank is in position of power over a loan applicant, just as a mugger is in a position of power over a person.

Wow, so offering a voluntary service is equal to hitting you over your head and taking your stuff?

How about rape? "Gee, I see you're not using that body cavity right now, so I will use it. Withholding your body is putting yourself in a position of power over a person."

This is why I just don't get Communists.
Logged
macsnafu
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 422


Situation Normal--all fouled up!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #188 on: October 15, 2012, 06:07:12 PM »

I know, I'm wasting my time. Still, someone is wrong on the Internet. What would you like me to do?

http://xkcd.com/386/

Heh. 

Logged

"I love mankind.  It's people I can't stand!"
assasin7
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 516


View Profile
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2012, 06:04:48 PM »

Trade can only be done among equals? No. You cannot possibly believe that, right? If you truly, honestly believe that, riddle me this: how do you define the relationship between an individual and a business? A business and an individual are unequal with each other because the individual running the business has more manpower, tools, and capital than the lone person buying his product. Yet, it is from this inequality that the business is able to develop a product that betters the life of the individual in question. Tell me, if equality existed in the market place, how could businesses expand and create better competition for better service? How could they properly meet consumer demand when it expands?

 Egiltarianism is a revolt against the foundations of nature itself. We're taught from very young ages that within nature itself, no two snow flakes are alike. Inequality exists everywhere. To deny that is to deny the foundations of nature.

Secondly, people are not slaves to banks. If a person doesn't like the home he's in, he has a right, under the contract between him and the bank, to sell his house and seek property somewhere else. No one is forcing him to keep the property in question.



1. Buying goods is different from a contract.

2. Then why were the earliest human societies egalitarian. Besides language is an assault on nature.

3. If you can't pay the mortgage your sooo in a position to buy a new house, besides your still required to pay the debt.
Logged

"owning a fire arm, that's a hanging offense"
"then go hang yourself"
assasin7
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 516


View Profile
« Reply #190 on: October 16, 2012, 06:10:17 PM »

1. We are about as far from a free market as is possible in a state capitalist/corporatist system as we have in the U.S.

Having dealt with people who lived in the USSR and China, I must disagree with you.

The regulatory environment certainly puts vast restrictions on market activities, but until you've experienced price controls and rationing, you cannot understand just how bad things can be.

Quote
2. From my understanding communism takes how a family works, i.e. sharing the land your live on but having your own living spaces, and possessions, and apply it to the community. To put it another way, in a anarcho-communist community, the land and any factories and such would be communally owned. things such as tools for artisans, and small-time crafters, and possessions such as the numerous books, guns and ammunition, electronics et cetera I own would be MINE. If somewhere were to take them without my permission or damage them, then depending on the community, there would be hell to pay.

The operative phrase is "depending on the community".

Once the principle of private property ceases to be recognized, it becomes just a matter of opinion. Your tools are yours, you say? That's private property! That's exclusionary! You're creating artificial scarcity! etc.

Quote
So basically ancoms when they say property, refer to stuff like land and the resources of the land, as well as factories. Stuff like your bedroom in a home or apartment, and your stuff, like books, guns, electronics, etc. would be yours, and yours alone. At least unless you gave them to someone else.

"...as well as factories." Oh, and kitchens, since people make things there. And cars, since everyone needs a car. Oops, since the cars are all broken now, bicycles are common property. And tools, now that the bicycles need fixing. Woops, need a fry-pan, I'll just use that one... etc.

There is a really painful movie, banned in China, called "To Live". I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Means of Production are only illused when people hire others to use them, a kitchen doesn't involve other people.

The factory would be run by the workers, not some bureaucrat/CEO in Iceland. I'm in favor of voluntary communism, individualist anarchism, mutualism, hell Trotskyism should be allowed.
Logged

"owning a fire arm, that's a hanging offense"
"then go hang yourself"
AgoristTeen1994
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590


View Profile
« Reply #191 on: October 16, 2012, 09:43:02 PM »

Having dealt with people who lived in the USSR and China, I must disagree with you.

The regulatory environment certainly puts vast restrictions on market activities, but until you've experienced price controls and rationing, you cannot understand just how bad things can be.
Ah but can the USSR and China be considered state capitalist? I think not. I would describe them as state communism.

The operative phrase is "depending on the community".

Once the principle of private property ceases to be recognized, it becomes just a matter of opinion. Your tools are yours, you say? That's private property! That's exclusionary! You're creating artificial scarcity! etc.

"...as well as factories." Oh, and kitchens, since people make things there. And cars, since everyone needs a car. Oops, since the cars are all broken now, bicycles are common property. And tools, now that the bicycles need fixing. Woops, need a fry-pan, I'll just use that one... etc.

You do raise a good point in that regard, that many ancom communities might go down that path. HOWEVER I've read writings by Kropotkin (the only one I really liked was his "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" and that sort of thing would not be what he advocated. Of course I'm sure there are some....extreme ancoms who would go that far in the abolition of private property. However most won't go that far in my experience.



There is a really painful movie, banned in China, called "To Live". I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Very well then I shall try to see it if I can find the time. Tongue
Logged

AgoristTeen1994
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590


View Profile
« Reply #192 on: October 16, 2012, 09:54:55 PM »

I'm in favor of voluntary communism, individualist anarchism, mutualism, hell Trotskyism should be allowed.
I'm in favor of .... individualist anarchism, mutualism, hell Trotskyism should be allowed.


I'm in favor of .....hell Trotskyism should be allowed.

....
...
...
WTF is wrong with you???
Are you even aware of the sheer magnitude of the contradictory doublethink in your statement?
1. Individualist anarchism favors INDIVIDUAL ownership of property.  

2. You DO realise Trotskyism is a form of state communism/totalitarianism that makes Stalinism or the Orwellian regime in 1984 look like small potatoes? How the fuck can trotskyism coexist with anarchism let alone individualist anarchism or mutualism? You know the quote by Ernest Lesigne on the "Two Socialisms" how "One says: The land to the State. The mine to the State. The tool to the State. The product to the State. The other says: The land to the cultivator. The mine to the miner. The tool to the laborer. The product to the producer."

Yeah Trotskyism is the would be even worse than "the first socialism" since in addition to saying "The land to the state, the mine to the state, the tool to the state, the product to the state" it also says: The cultivator TO THE STATE, the miner TO THE STATE, the laborer TO THE STATE, the producer TO THE STATE

While voluntary communism and individualist anarchism would probably exist......if you seriously think that trotskyism is anything other than pure sociopathic, elitist egomaniacs being the master to everyone else's slaves, than 1. My respect for you, which admittedly was a little low, plummeted, and 2. You sound like a complete and utter moron.

You need to get real, and learn about critical thinking and how to avoid specious reasoning.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 09:58:11 PM by AgoristTeen1994 » Logged

SinCityVoluntaryist
Left Rothbardian against the corporate state; Ron Paulian against the empire
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1238



View Profile
« Reply #193 on: October 16, 2012, 11:28:39 PM »

^Thank you, AgoristTeen1994. I read that last statement and thought, "Wait a minute. Does he realize that he's advocating a branch of neocon philosophy?"
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 02:50:46 PM by JustSayNoToStatism » Logged

<iframe src="http://c4ss.org/c4ssnews/js1.0/c4ssnewsobject.html?ctc=eef467&clc=f4f367" id="c4niframe" width="160" height="360" style="margin: 0px;" scrolling="no" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Support the Molinari Institute:
http://praxeology.net/molinari.htm
BobRobertson
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 495



View Profile
« Reply #194 on: October 17, 2012, 12:01:54 PM »

1. Buying goods is different from a contract.

False. Trade is a contract. You give me X, I give you Y. If you give me X and I do not give you Y, or vice versa, the contract has been violated.

Quote
2. Then why were the earliest human societies egalitarian. Besides language is an assault on nature.

You have a strange definition of "egalitarian". Primitive societies do not treat everyone as equals, there is hierarchy, differences in wealth, etc.

What primitive societies were is POOR. It's easy to all look the same when everyone is poor.

Quote
3. If you can't pay the mortgage your sooo in a position to buy a new house, besides your still required to pay the debt.

Taking on a mortgage is a choice. Don't do it if you can't fulfill your side of the contract. Remember, buying something is a contract, voluntarily entered into by all parties to the contract.

Means of Production are only illused when people hire others to use them, a kitchen doesn't involve other people.

So now you're changing your definition of evil private property to only include that which is "illused"? So rather than have any objective measurement at all of what is or is not "evil private property", you get to decide based solely on your subjective opinion of what is or is not "illused"?

Quote
The factory would be run by the workers, not some bureaucrat/CEO in Iceland. I'm in favor of voluntary communism, individualist anarchism, mutualism, hell Trotskyism should be allowed.

You are making the assumption that the factory needs no one to negotiate supply contracts. Or sales contracts. Or to look for replacement parts as things wear out. Or to pay the bills. Or to find replacement workers, or get rid of workers who are not productive.

Just what do you think "management" does? Nothing?

Ah but can the USSR and China be considered state capitalist? I think not. I would describe them as state communism.

Yes, that is exactly what they were, and are. The USSR much less so, but there was still the Ruble in use, just as the Chinese Ramimbi (or Yuan, or whatever it's called...).

Now I agree that at some point of govt control, possibly when "industry" is owned by govt rather than just tightly regulated, it goes from tacit Socialism to explicit Socialism, but again that is one of those gray areas.

And China now is far more "capitalist" than the USA except for one thing: It's much easier for the Chinese govt to take your land. It still happens in the USA, as the Kilo decision made clear, but not as easy.

Quote
You do raise a good point in that regard, that many ancom communities might go down that path. HOWEVER I've read writings by Kropotkin (the only one I really liked was his "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" and that sort of thing would not be what he advocated. Of course I'm sure there are some....extreme ancoms who would go that far in the abolition of private property. However most won't go that far in my experience.

I prefer not to leave it up to a matter of opinion. Those places and times where rights to private property were more respected, that society became more wealthy. Everyone.

Mutual aid is not anti-private-property. How am I to give someone something if I don't first own it?

Quote
Quote
There is a really painful movie, banned in China, called "To Live". I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Very well then I shall try to see it if I can find the time. Tongue

Do, it's well worth it. Seeing what people lost to the "Glorious Revolution" is deeply frightening.

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!