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Author Topic: An Open Letter to Anarchists of all stripes  (Read 25710 times)
AgoristTeen1994
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« on: March 19, 2012, 11:13:15 PM »

To all anarchists, both of the market anarchist and social anarchist variety: What IS it with you guys (and gals)? I mean, we both agree the State needs to be abolished, yes while it would be NICE (in some ways) to be able to plan what a free society, would look like, that little problem called "spontaneous order" kind of prevents us from doing so, so why in the FUCKING HELL can't we just cooperate in smashing the state? I mean, for all we know there could be little enclaves of anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-communism, and anarcho-inbetweenism, why don't we decide "too hell with our differences on property" and focus on our true enemy, the state. It's no WONDER we're having such a hard time smashing the state, I mean, aside from all of the problems and obstacles such an endeavor has by its very nature, we bicker too damn much to realize "hey, we're both allies against the state, so how about instead of fighting each other and making jabs at whether the individuals of the other side are "true" anarchists, we smash the state, and then, maybe, just MAYBE we do something like I don't know, letting individuals decide from themselves, which kind of community, an anarcho-capitalist, anarcho-communist or somewhere in between, said individuals would like to live in, based on what their needs, and priorities are
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Seth King
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 11:16:20 PM »

I'm a bit more optimistic than you are. I see Bitcoin being enthusiastically adopted by anarchists of all stripes. I think it will be the economic glue that binds us together.

If you want to end the state you've got to figure out a way to stop using their money. Without the power to counterfeit their power drops significantly.
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AgoristTeen1994
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 11:23:02 PM »

I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying most anarchists are making smashing the state harder than it has to be, because they won't "play nice" with anarchists of other stripes.


Also I highly doubt the ancom types will like bitcpin since last I check they hated money in all of it's forms
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Seth King
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 11:27:19 PM »

I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying most anarchists are making smashing the state harder than it has to be, because they won't "play nice" with anarchists of other stripes.


Also I highly doubt the ancom types will like bitcpin since last I check they hated money in all of it's forms

I think some of the older farts may not like it(sort of like the LvMI/LRC crowd) but the younger tech savvy generation does.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 01:22:25 AM »

Quote
why in the FUCKING HELL can't we just cooperate in smashing the state?
Not a stable equilibrium. If we had meetings the ancoms would walk off with our stuff.
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Mark Stoval
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 05:42:19 AM »

To all anarchists, both of the market anarchist and social anarchist variety: What IS it with you guys (and gals)? I mean, we both agree the State needs to be abolished, yes while it would be NICE (in some ways) to be able to plan what a free society, would look like, that little problem called "spontaneous order" kind of prevents us from doing so, so why in the FUCKING HELL can't we just cooperate in smashing the state? I mean, for all we know there could be little enclaves of anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-communism, and anarcho-inbetweenism, why don't we decide "too hell with our differences on property" and focus on our true enemy, the state. ...

What a great question. A question that I have asked myself many times: if the State is our main enemy, should we not join forces to beat it? I found out there is a rub. We will beat the State by convincing and educating others. We will win, ultimately, in the realm of ideas before we win in the 3d world. Men need an ideology to believe in; and we need to provide the ideology of non-aggression and free-will cooperation.

The side that does not believe in property does not even believe I own my own self. How can we condone that? They don't really believe in the NAP since their view of society needs something/someone/some-group to force people to act as they would have them act.

The market-anarchists believe in non-aggression and free-will voluntary cooperation. We believe that as long as people act in a voluntary manner then "it is all good". If a bunch of folks want to start a commune, then great! Just don't force me to join if I don't want to.

I have an idea. Fine out why the anarchist-communists hate Murray Rothbard and you will have your answer. 

PS: Does anyone have a link to a really great debate on this debate forum on property? (I know there must have been several over the years)
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dpalme
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 10:07:54 AM »

Can someone please explain to me how in the hell anarcho-communism is a form of anarchism? I just can't seem to grasp that.
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AgoristTeen1994
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 10:26:00 AM »

@Mark Stoval: I disagree that anarcho-communists don't believe in self-ownership, or the NAP Leo Tolstoy is a good example of that.. You're argument could be considered a straw man, since you're arguing against a position you believe they have, when in fact, from my experience they don't hold that position at all. As for your claim that their view of society requires someone/something to force people to behave as they would have them act....that is a HIGHLY specious argument. You have absolutely no way of predicting with 100% what a free society will look like, or how people will behave in a free society, for all you know, there could very well be large communes, that work like a family, only on a larger scale...id est, they have "communal" land, but they have private possessions, like books, tools, guns, etc. Plus from my experiences with anarcho-communists, most of them, believe, that natural forces, which could be considered "free market forces" will cause the end of private property. Note Bene most anarcho-communists see a difference between private property, and possession, they see private property as that which you could only claim to own and have protected if a State exists, and they see possession as "owning" something that you actually use.

@dpalme: According to www.dictionary.com there are three definitions of anarchist, we'll go with the first one:

an·ar·chist: noun; a person who advocates or believes in anarchy  or anarchism.

an-ar-chy: noun; 1. a state of society without government or law. 2. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

derives from the greek word "anarkos" which is comes from "a(n) meaning no) and "archos" meaning ruler, thus no ruler.

Ergo, an anarchist is anyone who desires a society where there is no direct/coercive government, how they want the society to look like is is varied, but so long as they want no direct/coercive government, and propose cooperative and voluntary association of people and groups, then they are anarchists, even if they are incredibly naive and/or arrogant to think that the entirety of an anarchist society will live according to THEIR model of how society should look, though that is a fault many anarcho-capitalists share
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Mark Stoval
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 02:12:10 PM »

@Mark Stoval: I disagree that anarcho-communists don't believe in self-ownership, or the NAP Leo Tolstoy is a good example of that.. You're argument could be considered a straw man, since you're arguing against a position you believe they have, when in fact, from my experience they don't hold that position at all. As for your claim that their view of society requires someone/something to force people to behave as they would have them act....that is a HIGHLY specious argument. You have absolutely no way of predicting with 100% what a free society will look like, or how people will behave in a free society, for all you know, there could very well be large communes, that work like a family, only on a larger scale...

I just don't agree with you here. How can I own anything if I can not own the ground under my feet? If I dig iron out of the ground and that ground is not mine; who owns the iron or anything made of it? If I must please the community to keep my right to stand on this ground; then I am its slave.

If there are large communes founded on property that the commune owns; then that is great. Just don't come take all my stuff because you want it for your commune.

The free-market anarchists believe in voluntary trade which makes everyone's standard of living go up. The idea that no one can own anything is not workable. (and you can own nothing if you can not own the ground under your feet)

Or put another way; if there is "communal property" there will arise a committee to control the property and settle disputes. Guess how that is going to work out!

"Anarcho-communism, both in its original Bakunin-Kropotkin form and its current irrationalist and "post-scarcity" variety, is poles apart from genuine libertarian principle."  -- Rothbard

See: http://mises.org/daily/2197  The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists

Another look at the idea of "anarcho-communists":  Murray Rothbard's article on the subject called Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Naturehttp://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard31.html



Edit: for clarity
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:44:51 PM by Mark Stoval » Logged
ErikAnarchy
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 03:00:23 PM »

There's a group already trying to bring together anarchists of different stripes. They appeal to our one shared goal: the abolition of the state.
I believe they are called "Anarchists without Adjectives"
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ErikAnarchy
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 03:01:41 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_without_adjectives
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »

If there are large communes founded on property that the commune owns; then that is great. Just don't come take all my stuff because you want it for your commune.
And what if the people who want to start the commune don't believe in the legitimacy of your claim on the property? It's analogous to how we don't respect the state's claim on all the property in a geographic area. I have to take back all my claims that ancom is not real anarchism. I was wrong.
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Mark Stoval
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2012, 03:52:29 PM »

If there are large communes founded on property that the commune owns; then that is great. Just don't come take all my stuff because you want it for your commune.
And what if the people who want to start the commune don't believe in the legitimacy of your claim on the property? It's analogous to how we don't respect the state's claim on all the property in a geographic area. I have to take back all my claims that ancom is not real anarchism. I was wrong.

So you intend to just use force and coercion to take what you want?  You are different from the State in what way?
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DROI
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 04:54:53 PM »

I'd say anarchist-communists and anarchist-capitalists don't mix well for the simple reason that an anarchist-communist community could exist in an anarchist-capitalist world while an anarchist-capitalist community couldn't exist in an anarchist-communist world.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 05:22:23 PM »

If there are large communes founded on property that the commune owns; then that is great. Just don't come take all my stuff because you want it for your commune.
And what if the people who want to start the commune don't believe in the legitimacy of your claim on the property? It's analogous to how we don't respect the state's claim on all the property in a geographic area. I have to take back all my claims that ancom is not real anarchism. I was wrong.

So you intend to just use force and coercion to take what you want?  You are different from the State in what way?
Umm... I made a comment on the nature of property and how it relates to different anarchist schools of thought, and you accuse me of wanting to steal from people?
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"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
-MAM
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