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Author Topic: Are you conservative or progressive?  (Read 38349 times)
Freya
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2012, 10:36:54 PM »

He didn't say it wasn't your right.  He stated his list of priorities was social acceptance over a free society that would ostracize him.  

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That was my point. I guess I dont understand how you could be an Ancap and put social acceptance over a free society.

I'm not saying we should put one over the other. Both are important. What most anarcho-capitalists don't realize is that their concept of "freedom" is not enough to unlock human potential. There is another slavery that is debilitating to an individuals morale, happiness and productivity.

Social slavery is having to conform to social norms and expectations and not being able to be who you are. If you are pressured to fight a battle against your own nature your entire life, can you be truly free?

Traditionalism is a destructive thing. By socially enforcing people to conform to your ideals you are destroying them psychologically. You are conditioning them to be broken humans that can not ever reach their full potential. If people are not allowed to reach their full potential they will never be as beneficial to your self-interest as they could be. These people will never be as creative, inventive or productive as they could be. Meaning less wealth that you could acquire by trade, fewer inventions that could benefit you personally.

As an ethical egoist, the concept of traditionalism is utterly irrational to me. But its fairly logical that many people do not see this in the ancap movement, as they have never had to endure social oppression themselves.

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PS- How is someone like myself "limiting your freedom"?

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I really hope I didn't hurt your feelings?

Allow me to demonstrate:

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By the way, I'd probably change my view on transgenders/gender bending to more of a tolerance. Not sure why I put down avoidance. I refuse, however, to consider them the "new role" they have switched to, e.g., I'd refuse to call Bob by his new name of Susan.

Rothbardian has no idea of the harm she would be inflicting on people by her proposed behaviour. But I can forgive her because she is just a disgusting tranny. I hope she can understand the irony of what I'm saying here. But I wouldn't expect it, because she is just a dumb fucking cunt.

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petty issues

These issues are not petty, you have to try and understand this. They may seem petty to you because they aren't really any issue to you. But how would you feel in a society where you were socially ostracized if you did not wear a dress, makeup and high heels?




« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:44:28 PM by EddyK » Logged
derick
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2012, 10:44:44 PM »

You are looking for a higher authority to make life fair for you or anyone else that feels wronged by society. We have that authority now, are you saying we need more of it?
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2012, 10:45:58 PM »

Rothbardian has no idea of the harm she would be inflicting on people by her proposed behaviour. But I can forgive her because she is just a disgusting tranny. I hope she can understand the irony of what I'm saying here. But I wouldn't expect it, because she is just a dumb fucking cunt.

Well, I consider that there are objective genders and gender roles; it is not a matter of subjective opinion. I am objectively a male, so what you are saying makes no sense. (Although I can indeed see the irony of what you are trying to say). But, like I said, you are born either biologically male or female, and that's all there is to it.
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Freya
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM »

You are looking for a higher authority to make life fair for you or anyone else that feels wronged by society. We have that authority now, are you saying we need more of it?

Are you intent on just creating strawmen? Can you please point out where I advocate for authority?

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Well, I consider that there are objective genders and gender roles; it is not a matter of subjective opinion. I am objectively a male, so what you are saying makes no sense. (Although I can indeed see the irony of what you are trying to say). But, like I said, you are born either biologically male or female, and that's all there is to it.

It makes no sense because you are ill informed on the subject.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:48:50 PM by EddyK » Logged
Rothbardian
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2012, 10:48:25 PM »

These issues are not petty, you have to try and understand this. They may seem petty to you because they aren't really any issue to you. But how would you feel in a society where you were socially ostracized if you did not wear a dress, makeup and high heels?

Presuming I am female in this hypothetical scenario, I'd conform to the tradition. It actually does sound like a good tradition to me anyway; it would be nice to bring back.
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Freya
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 10:50:09 PM »

Presuming I am female in this hypothetical scenario, I'd conform to the tradition. It actually does sound like a good tradition to me anyway; it would be nice to bring back.

You are your current self. You are pressured  to wear a  dress, makeup and high heels. No one will talk to you, they will verbally abuse you and not do business with you. How would this make you feel? Would you be free?

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:52:32 PM by EddyK » Logged
Rothbardian
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2012, 10:56:58 PM »

You are your current self. You are pressured  to wear a  dress, makeup and high heels. No one will talk to you, they will verbally abuse you and not do business with you. How would this make you feel? Would you be free?

Well, that doesn't make any sense. That's not pressuring for tradition (my belief), but that's pressuring against my tradition (against my beliefs).

I'd be fine with being pressured to wear a suit and tie, as traditional roles would dictate.
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Freya
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2012, 11:03:16 PM »

Well, that doesn't make any sense. That's not pressuring for tradition (my belief), but that's pressuring against my tradition (against my beliefs).

I'd be fine with being pressured to wear a suit and tie, as traditional roles would dictate.

You really do not get it do you? I'm saying you should try to imagine living in a society where this is the tradition. And you personally want to wear a suit and tie. But if you chose to do so, you would be ostracized.

Try to imagine living in a society that is completely in conflict with your beliefs. How would you feel?
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2012, 11:06:10 PM »

Oh, if it was firmly established as the tradition for my role, I would accept it. Grin I believe in voluntary traditionalism; but, in the real world, less absurd and very nice traditions are what have actually developed.

(Sorry, I misunderstood your hypothetical).
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Syock
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2012, 11:13:05 PM »

Rothbardian, what if you didn't know what your role was?  What if you had no indication on your body that would lead you to believe it was one or the other?  What if no one could tell you?   What if everyone was afraid of you because of that?  What if you couldn't make friends because everyone was afraid of you? 

This has happened to people. 
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2012, 11:22:01 PM »

Well, I'd accept whatever the traditionally proper role for a person such as myself was. For example, if I hypothetically had transgender inclinations, I'd accept whatever the traditional role for my birth gender is.  Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.
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Syock
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2012, 11:28:40 PM »

Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.

Would you want people to hate you due to your acceptance of that role?  Do you think it would be a good thing for you if the tradition involved people with that role to be kicked out of society?  Would you consider that a traditional role in the first place if the society that has it doesn't accept you?  Would you consider yourself part of the society that rejected you?  Would you still give a crap about their traditions?   
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Freya
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2012, 11:31:06 PM »

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Well, I'd accept whatever the traditionally proper role for a person such as myself was. For example, if I hypothetically had transgender inclinations, I'd accept whatever the traditional role for my birth gender is.  Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.

It's very easy to accept the tradition when it privileges you. It's very easy to not see your privilege when you consider it "normal". I hope you do not believe empathy is exclusively part of the female role, you could really do well by trying to empathize a little bit more.

I'm going to call it a night because I am so frustrated I am about to start throwing around expletives. If you want to know how I feel right now: Imagine you are trying to convince the most "patriotic" statist you have ever met. No matter how clearly you make your case he just doesn't get it. Imagine how frustrating that conversation would be. Thats how this conversation feels for me.

And yes, if you continue to hold your current beliefs we would not be friends. If you are truly interested in finding out why I am so offended by what you are saying then I suggest you do some more research into transgenderism.



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Rothbardian
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2012, 11:36:01 PM »

Would you want people to hate you due to your acceptance of that role?  Do you think it would be a good thing for you if the tradition involved people with that role to be kicked out of society?  Would you consider that a traditional role in the first place if the society that has it doesn't accept you?  Would you consider yourself part of the society that rejected you?  Would you still give a crap about their traditions?

1). If it was the established tradition, they would not hate me.

2). That would be fine, I suppose?

3). I'm confused by this question.

4). If I was following tradition, why would the society reject me?

5). Yes, or - I'd start a new community in which my own traditions would be developed.



EddyK- I'm not ignorant. I've even watched documentaries on transgenderism before.
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2012, 11:48:16 PM »

And yes, if you continue to hold your current beliefs we would not be friends.

Well, I don't judge my views of individuals based on one perceived flaw, as aforementioned. Sad

For example, I may see homosexuality as being a flaw, but that doesn't mean I hate homosexual individuals. I'm even willing to be their friends. I am not applying a collectivist approach here. Perhaps you should reread my sentiments?

It's sad that you would place so much emphasis on what you perceive as my flaw (traditionalism) that you could not be friends with me, while I would be willing to put aside your flaws (transgenderism perhaps?) and be friends with you. It's very ironic actually. You seem to be assuming that I simply hate people who have these flaws, which is not the case, thankfully. I'm not a bigot, but a traditionalist.
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