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Author Topic: Are you conservative or progressive?  (Read 27739 times)
Freya
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« on: January 19, 2012, 10:38:16 PM »

I was curious how culturally conservative or culturally progressive members of this forum are. By this is mean your stance on cultural changes that go against tradition. Such as: homosexuality, non-nuclear families and feminism. I'm going to list a few I'd like your opinion on and ask you to pick one of the following:

Classifications


Defiance
You consider this cultural change to be so offensive that you would seek to rid the world of those who try to bring about this change.
Resistance

You reject this cultural change and resist it fiercely. You would be willing to use force against individuals to prevent this change from occurring in your community.
Avoidance
You reject this cultural change and resist it (mostly passively). You would use ostracism/exclusion against individuals and use peaceful ways to prevent this change.
Tolerance
You dislike or have some aversion of this change. You would be might be willing to associate with individuals if it is in your interest, but you would not consider them friends.
Acceptance
You accept this change as part of the new cultural norm.
Participance
You are either a part of this cultural change or actively support it.
Combatance
You would violently force others to accept this cultural change or would attack those who actively seek to prevent it.

List of currently controversial cultural phenomena (may vary from country to country):

  • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming)
  • Homo and bi-sexuality
  • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.
  • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.
  • Prostitution
  • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.
  • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.
  • Bestiality: Sex with animals
  • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors
  • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)
  • Abortion
  • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.
  • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent
  • of all involved.
  • Pornography
  • Euthanesia/Suicide
  • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.
  • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"
  • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.
  • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine
  • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

I'd like for you to classify your stance on each of these. Feel free to add additional comments or reasoning as to why you take this stance. Feel free to suggest other options as well.

I'll fill it in myself tomorrow, but I'm curious how you all feel.







« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 10:43:47 PM by EddyK » Logged
Syock
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 11:29:45 PM »

Considering ancap is about non-aggression and all, I would expect most people to at least take a live and let live kind of attitude about this.  I will skip/modify answering some of these, as answering them have potential for incarceration or who knows what.  There are some really touchy subjects still as far as the law is concerned.  

I am using "Acceptance" as supporting as well.  I don't go out and protest things, so I don't really have an active support to differentiate with.  

Quote
  • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming)

[Edit: As asked in the example it is fine to promote in a non-legal way.  I believe the way to have equality is to treat people equally, rather than the common usage of this movement to get legislation passed that causes all sorts of weird regulations.  

The reality of Feminism is quite a bit more extreme.  http://www.womenagainstmen.com/media/feminism-is-a-hate-group.html  ]

Quote
  • Homo and bi-sexuality

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.    

Quote
  • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Prostitution

Acceptance - I would probably be a participant if it were legal where I am, or if I were female and willing to move.  

Quote
  • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

Participance - Atheist

Quote
  • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

Acceptance, maybe participant, I haven't looked into it to see what counts.  

Skipping a few here for legal reasons...

Quote
  • Abortion

Participance - I don't support government stealing from people to fund anything, and this is one that is commonly funded that way.  

Quote
  • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

Participance - using your definition.  I've seen it defined differently as well which would put it in acceptance.  

Quote
  • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent of all involved.

Participance

Quote
  • Pornography

Participance - A few of the others on this list mix well with this, and might bump me to participant in them.  

Quote
  • Euthanesia/Suicide

If I participated in this, I probably wouldn't be here right now.  I support it.  

Quote
  • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.

Participance - DNA isn't something people get to pick one way or the other.  Why not?

Quote
  • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it, so long as it is consensual.

Quote
  • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:30:23 PM by Syock » Logged

Freya
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 11:39:28 PM »

I took participant as also being an activist or actively advocating. So a participant could be a doctor who performs euthanasia.

Quote
I will skip/modify answering some of these, as answering them have potential for incarceration or who knows what.  There are some really touchy subjects still as far as the law is concerned.  

Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

Thats quite shocking as I would minimally answer acceptance to pretty much all of these. With the exception of two.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 11:41:14 PM by EddyK » Logged
victim77
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 11:40:03 PM »

I really cannot stand 90% of all people because they don't actually think. Most, if not all of the "controversial" things listed have been around way before even the Roman Empire. I don't like people who try too hard to be open minded, yet ignorance makes me sick. And honestly, I don't care about what other people do to themselves or others as long as it is voluntary.
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Syock
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 11:46:48 PM »

I really cannot stand 90% of all people because they don't actually think. Most, if not all of the "controversial" things listed have been around way before even the Roman Empire. I don't like people who try too hard to be open minded, yet ignorance makes me sick. And honestly, I don't care about what other people do to themselves or others as long as it is voluntary.

The only one that could be seen as new that I noticed was using technology to modify DNA, but lets face it, natural selection works to modify DNA already. 
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Will
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 11:55:40 PM »

With the exception of feminism and occasional drug use I believe most everything on this list is either unhealthy or immoral. That said I don't think my morality applies to anyone other than myself, so I would say my position as you define it as tolerance. Possibly avoidance if I felt it wasn't healthy for me to be around, but if someone wants to I'm not going to stand in their way.
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Syock
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2012, 12:15:52 AM »

With the exception of feminism and occasional drug use I believe most everything on this list is either unhealthy or immoral. That said I don't think my morality applies to anyone other than myself, so I would say my position as you define it as tolerance. Possibly avoidance if I felt it wasn't healthy for me to be around, but if someone wants to I'm not going to stand in their way.

A lot of them have been going on for thousands of years, as the cultural norms in various societies around the world.  It is interesting how the cultural norms of where we are raised can influence how other cultural norms are viewed.   
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 01:48:26 AM »

I am a traditionalist and a teetotaller, but of course I stand by the non-aggression axiom. I've never really thought to do otherwise, even when I was a minarchist. (As far as bad cultural phenomena, I mean).

As an Anarcho-Monarchist, I don't really see how I could not also be a traditionalist. Grin

I do not, however, subscribe to viewing myself as "conservative"; I view myself as a radical who wants to bring about natural law, i.e., the Libertarian Law Code.
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Rothbardian
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 02:55:05 AM »

Alright, using your definitions to take the quiz.

    • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming)

    Participance on the equal legal status (as per Natural Law; I do not necessarily support equal statist laws applied to women), with more of a tolerance, perhaps acceptance, for female social equality. I am opposed to egalitarianism - in fact I love inequality - and I believe that male individuals and female individuals often have important differences and voluntary roles to take.

    • Homo and bi-sexuality

    Tolerance. I'm not unwilling to associate with homosexual individuals, but I prefer normal, heterosexual traditions, as they are more Natural. I also might be slightly "homophobic" (to a certain, very negligible degree).  

    • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.

    Avoidance. I would non-aggressively advocate against this idea.

    • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

    ^Same as above

    • Prostitution

    Tolerance. I find the activity very distasteful, but not enough to even advocate passively against, as it has somewhat of a better basis in tradition.

    • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

    Participance. I am an agnostic.

    • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

    Tolerance. Seems very creepy to me, but these activities are so far removed that it would be difficult to advocate against these fetishes anyway. (Plus, people with these fetishes would probably not listen to my advocacy against said fetish).

    • Bestiality: Sex with animals

    Avoidance. As any good person, I would make well known my very stern disapproval of this activity if the opportunity allows. Animals are property, however, so this would of course have legal status in Anarcho-Capitalism. (Unless the person in question was raping someone else's animal).

    • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors

    Tolerance/Avoidance/Resistance. Parents have a non-fee-simple property right in their children, as Rothbard said, so sex with them could constitute violation of a property right. So, both the parents and minor have to consent, for the action to be legal. If there was not parental and minor consent, my feelings would shift to resistance. If the sex was consensual between minors, my sentiment would vary toward tolerance. But if the sex was consensual between mature minors and adults, my feelings would lean far more toward avoidance. (Depending on HOW mature - physically and emotionally - the minor is).

    • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)

    Avoidance/Resistance. See above answer. The only cases where pedophilia would even be legal would be (a) if parents and minor consent and (b) the minor consents with full awareness. (Just saying "yes" doesn't necessarily constitute a full awareness of what you're agreeing to, if you don't know what it is, like a child). My feelings shift to a very, very negative avoidance in the case of hypothetical voluntary pedophilia.

    PS- Self-Owning minors, i.e., those who live on their own property and make their own rules, don't require parental consent.

    • Abortion

    Avoidance. I'd advocate against this activity and shun those who commit this vile act. I'd also advocate for hospitals, etc., to voluntarily ban abortion from their hospitals. My feelings vary to acceptance in certain cases such as rape victims having abortion. The avoidance is more particularly with regards to unnecessary abortions.

    • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

    Tolerance. However, due to the State licensing marriages, my feelings might range more toward a view of acceptance/participance. I refuse to get a marriage license from the State, as that would be degrading. Plus, love itself requires no State license. But if the licenses were private, my stance would be tolerance.

    • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent of all involved.

    Actually more of an acceptance, surprisingly, as long as the relationships are heterosexual. I have no more issue with polygamy or whatever other forms of polyamory than I do with monogamy.

    • Pornography

    Participance. Cool

    • Euthanesia/Suicide

    Acceptance. I don't see anything wrong with someone voluntarily taking his own life when he is in pain or whatnot. However, my stance would be more of a tolerance/avoidance when the suicide or euthanasia seems more unnecessary.

    • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.

    Hm...Not really sure. It's going to depend on the specific modification, for me to have an opinion.

    • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"

    Tolerance. Pointless and degrades the human body.

    • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.

    Avoidance. I am a teetotaller who believes drugs are pointless and have detrimental bodily effects. I'd love to see lots of voluntary advocacy against them, and ostracism against drug users.

    • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine.

    ^Same answer as above, just a little bit stronger sentiment.

    • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

    Avoidance. That's disgusting, and I would advocate strongly against any such incest. My idea of monarchy isn't necessarily hereditary, so don't accuse me of hypocrisy. >_>
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 03:07:07 AM by Rothbardian » Logged

    Syock
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    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 08:02:37 AM »

    Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

    Well look at the drugs for example, if someone were to list it as participant, they would be admitting to a crime in most of the world.  At least a few people on this site expect that what we are posting is at least sifted by the government computers where some of us live.  The laws where I am have been applied to people that haven't even actually done anything.  It hits the news every once in awhile. 
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    Freya
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    « Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 08:47:31 AM »

    Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

    Well look at the drugs for example, if someone were to list it as participant, they would be admitting to a crime in most of the world.  At least a few people on this site expect that what we are posting is at least sifted by the government computers where some of us live.  The laws where I am have been applied to people that haven't even actually done anything.  It hits the news every once in awhile. 

    Well perhaps I didn't specify that category enough. Participance also means being actively trying to get it accepted. For example petitioning for legal drugs, being a politician and proposing bills etc. It goes further then just accepting it, you actively want to bring about this change. I personally don't feel so strongly about getting drugs legalized, so I wouldn't consider myself participatory.

    I mainly made this post so I can find out how safely I can talk about some of these things. I think I can have some meaningful discussions here even if I wouldn't ever associate with some of the people on this forum.

    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best. Still I'm getting lots of good debating here and would like to continue that regardless of my personal feelings about people here.

    I'm also testing the waters of how anarcho-capitalists and especially Americans feel about these issues. I do have a strong impulse to move to New Hampshire and be with like minded people. But I have no desire to be with people that accept my political philosophy but wouldn't accept me as a person. I want to live in a community where most people are either a friend, colleague or cordial acquaintance.
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    Syock
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    « Reply #11 on: January 20, 2012, 08:55:54 AM »

    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best. Still I'm getting lots of good debating here and would like to continue that regardless of my personal feelings about people here.

    I'm also testing the waters of how anarcho-capitalists and especially Americans feel about these issues. I do have a strong impulse to move to New Hampshire and be with like minded people. But I have no desire to be with people that accept my political philosophy but wouldn't accept me as a person. I want to live in a community where most people are either a friend, colleague or cordial acquaintance.

    Well Rothbardian also said it wouldn't cross his mind to use force to have others conform to his viewpoint.  I don't think you would run into an ancap, or even a good portion of libertarians that would.  They have done some activism in NH about the drug issue.  They had a smoke out in one of the parks there on a regular basis.  There were so many of them that the police left them alone.  They were not enforcing the drug laws.  Personally I wouldn't want to join in on such activism, as smoke causes me to toss my lunch.  A lot of the other things on that list are not illegal in NH, or anywhere in the country.  A few are expected in most of the country.  
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 09:03:07 AM by Syock » Logged

    Freya
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    « Reply #12 on: January 20, 2012, 09:08:23 AM »

    Well Rothbardian also said it wouldn't cross his mind to use force to have others conform to his viewpoint.  I don't think you would run into an ancap, or even a good portion of libertarians that would.  They have done some activism in NH about the drug issue.  They had a smoke out in one of the parks there on a regular basis.  There were so many of them that the police left them alone.  They were not enforcing the drug laws.  A lot of the other things on that list are not illegal in NH, or anywhere in the country.  A few are expected in most of the country.  

    I'm assuming you are a straight masculine man. Probably white and middle to upper class.

    Certainly you might have had your own issues in your past, but you won't have faced nearly the marginalization that some people have faced and you can not understand it. You don't seem to realize how harmful "social violence" is. To me socially enforced slavery is not different from violently enforced slavery, it has the same effect on morale and happiness.

    Though I outwardly present as a straight masculine man, and feel reasonably comfortable doing so, I'm am not quite a straight masculine man. Because of that I have a greater ability to understand the effect of social oppression of woman, gays, transsexuals and other marginalized people.

    P.S. I can't tell you more about what I am, I don't quite know myself. But lets just say it involves a fair bit of gender dysphoria.


    « Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 09:10:05 AM by EddyK » Logged
    Syock
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    « Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 10:16:23 AM »

    Your right, I have not faced the same social marginalization others undoubtedly have.  I was just thinking the best bet for acceptance is those who don't believe they have the right to say what others do.  What is the alternative, living where people think they should tell you what to do?  The worst of one still seems better than the best of the other.  That said, I am not sure NH is there yet.
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:27:54 AM by Syock » Logged

    Rothbardian
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    « Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 11:11:46 AM »

    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best.

    I'm sorry! I did not mean to come across as a dick or anything. Keep in mind that my feelings on most of those matters is not hate (except in a few instances like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.) but rather distaste. It is not like I am going to act like a jerk to any homosexual I meet, nor will I even bring the matter up for discussion. It is more that homosexuals discomfit me (to a certain limited extent) and that does not mean I actively want to discomfit them. Also, where I was using "tolerance," I did not mean that friendship/association is out of the question. I simply meant that I would not try to initiate such relationships, and that I find the activity distasteful.

    In most instances where I used "avoidance," I simply found that the activities were distasteful and deserving counter-advocacy. I'd also be willing to ostracize some people in those groups.

    But, especially where I answered more with "tolerance," it's not like I am going to be actively going around denouncing the activity. Just a distaste, that's all.
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