Daily Anarchist Forum
October 18, 2019, 04:41:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome to the Daily Anarchist Forum!
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]
 91 
 on: April 14, 2015, 07:17:40 PM 
Started by bitcambodia - Last post by macsnafu
I'm not sure I can do that.  While I can't stand to watch the news for very long, I also think I should have some idea of what statists are up to, and how it might affect me.  And few things give you such good insights into their thoughts and actions as an election.  What are they promising?  Who does the public believe and who does the public support?  These and more questions will be answered during the election year.

 92 
 on: April 13, 2015, 12:46:24 PM 
Started by bitcambodia - Last post by bitcambodia
From now till the end of election season, you do not discuss, listen to,  watch, share, follow, like, tweet, humor, entertain, acknowledge, read,  dream about, smell, feel, or taste anything, good or bad, sublime or mundane, interesting or irrelevant, trivial, earth-shattering, or life-threatening related to politics, so help you God. And you do not so much as acknowledge anyone with the slightest intent to do so with the least of respectable responses except, when absolutely necessary only to escape captivity, to tersely remark, “I do not discuss these things"

 93 
 on: April 09, 2015, 06:59:07 PM 
Started by Mr.Mister - Last post by macsnafu
(ENG) The anarchocapitalist park and pay for sit on a bench
(CZ) Anarchokapitalistický park a placeni sezeni na lavičce

In English too.

http://ssapas.blogspot.cz/2015/02/eng-anarchocapitalist-park-and-pay-for.html

I suppose, under some circumstances, someone might be willing to pay to sit on a bench, but it's much more likely that people will pay to advertise on the park bench, and let people sit on the bench for free.  Bench advertising is already done today, so you don't even have to imagine an ancap society to see it.

 94 
 on: April 08, 2015, 12:22:56 PM 
Started by Seth King - Last post by macsnafu
I don't think it's the television that's stealing our thunder, so to
speak. I think http://reddit.com/r/anarcho_capitalism really is a
superior way to communicate.

Okay, I've created an account over at Reddit.  I'm not sure about how good it really is--it seems rather disorganized--but it does have something of the feel of the old newsgroups that I used to spend a lot of time on, but with voting.

 95 
 on: April 05, 2015, 01:28:38 PM 
Started by Victor - Last post by macsnafu
I use a means-ends framework.  Or, in other words, I adopt a praxeological meta-ethic:

http://intentionalworldview.com/Deontology

Attaching means to ends is strategy.


Not if my comments above are right.  Means are attached to ends by nature, not by man.  Where human subjectivity and free will enter into it is in determining which ends we wish to achieve. And also a matter of knowledge and understanding, as in, knowing which means will achieve a desired end, and not mistakenly choosing a means that will not achieve a desired end.

To use an example presented earlier in this thread, can a coercive means be used to end poverty?  Obviously, a successful thief can relieve his personal poverty, at least temporarily.  But in the long run, a thief's poverty is only relieved by getting a sustainable income, most likely a steady job.  Governments have long instituted welfare programs, but poverty remains a pervading feature of modern societies, indicating that such coercive policies are *not* an effective means for ending poverty, regardless of what some people may think.

 96 
 on: April 04, 2015, 02:04:59 PM 
Started by FreeBornAngel - Last post by FreeBornAngel
Quote
It doesn’t change the fact that the free market is the greatest tool to bring society to general prosperity.
Are you sure about that, AG?  How many alternative economic systems have you looked at?

I think free access to all the work on the planet would do a better job then accepting the crumbs leftover by the boss.

Do you have any hope of owning a Maserati?
Under my proposal production ramps up until demand is met and everybody that wants one, or any other consumer good, gets one.

Quote
It is not a fact that you can transition to your system.
It is as much a fact as any religion, you can't prove that we can't and I can't prove that we can.
However logically, the proposal is sound and proper education meets the transitional needs.

Quote
The fact that you don’t want to adopt it on a small scale proves it won’t work on a large scale.
It can't be done on a small scale, just the toilet paper factory overwhelms any small number of people and doesn't get to the Maserati factory.
Either the proposal is accepted on a broad basis or it doesn't float.

Quote
If your system was better then free coops would out-perform private institutions and more people would choose them
That is a strawman, how do private co-ops obtain goods from a crapitalist absent some medium of exchange accepted/controlled by the crapitalist?

This is exactly why half measures won't bring about the transistion, the mind control of the crapitalists prevents it.
If I entered into a co-op it would have to produce all consumer goods within it's self or fail due to having to trade with the outside crapitalist world.

That being said if enough people accept what I propose the crapialists will be out of luck.

Quote
because of the relative lack of goods and freedom in your system
Let's review the proposal,.....the structure that is walmart becomes the central distribution network, we can include target and Costco, the workers continue to supply the distribution system as if everything were normal, except that instead of paying at the register they just take what they need to keep supplying the distribution chain.

As long as the workers supplying the system continue to do so the shelves are full.

What has happened is the workers have taken over from the owners.
Now all profits accrue to the workers and not the bosses.
At some point demand is met and work lessens.

Instead of working for less than the value their labor creates they now work only to satisfy themselves that they are not a drain on the whole.

If I get my Maserati and leave it in working order when I die how much work have I consumed?  Very little, as the work is still there in the form of a working car.

Now, if I eat, I need to contribute in a measure that equals the labor involved in supplying that food.
I don't have to grow my own food, I can work in the toilet paper factory.

I don't claim to have a lock on what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger, but better mathematicians than me can do the math in minutes and I can access their determination on the web.

I'm at the library, I have to log off, I will continue from here upon my return.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
I’m really glad you wrote the above statement about “controlling the mass media.”  This shows the true authoritarian nature of your system if it were ever adopted.
Not really, once the transition is made control will be in the hands of the workers that make the transmitter work.
Yes, in the short term the mass media will be a necessary tool, but nobody will be sending troops to take control of the towers.  The workers themselves will rise against their corporate masters, or they will remain slaves to them.

Quote
This is why you refuse to allow any alternatives to your system to exist.
I don't have to 'allow' alternatives to exist, they will naturally cease because they do a lesser job of equitably splitting up the labor needed to supply the world with consumer goods.

Quote
You are a monopolist, there can be only one way, your way.
I don't know where you get that, I have repeatedly stated that the proposal is voluntarily accepted as a better method of dividing the labor amongst us or it doesn't happen.

Quote
In my world your system and free market anarchism could exist side by side.
Why would a free worker submit to having a portion of his labor accrue to your wealth?
If my labor creates $100 and you pay me something less than that why would I agree to accept that when I can go next door and only have to labor in the amount of hours that assures that 100% of what I have consumed is replaced?

Under my proposal 100% of my labor meets my consumption needs whereas under your system I get a smaller percentage credited to me while a portion of what I make accrues to you.

How do you figure J. Paul Getty got all that money?
He certainly didn't do without keeping some of the value that his workers created for himself and he didn't get it by dividing the values created equally.
He exploited the poor to his own advantage.

Quote
In your system we would give up crapitalist domination in order to be dominated by you.
LOL, you are trapped in the paradigm,....Have I not repeated enough that the system is voluntary?
Even if you chose not to work a minute in your life you are still going to get fed, albeit with the reputation, and consequences, of being a bum, but you would be able to get your supper without submitting to work.

Quote
I don’t need you to control my media or to indoctrinate my kids thank you.
Jeez, you are trapped in the paradigm, who is controlling your mass media and indoctrinating your kids today?
I take it that you are happy with how they have indoctrinated the kids?
Wouldn't it be better to listen for 10 minutes to live in a world absent coercive control?

Or have the Monarchs done such a good job on you that even though you claim to be an anarchist you still want to be a tool in the economic system that was designed by the very people you claim to reject?

Quote
Typical marxist nonsense,
I haven't spent much time reading Marx, mostly just excepts, but if what was done in his name is any indication, Marxist nonsense is a mischaracterization of the proposal.
Let this on the spot report speak for it's self,.....There is no Communism in Russia.

Quote
We would all follow your system if you could just indoctrinate us to believe that people will work hard without any personal remuneration.
Again, you misstate the proposal, under my proposal not only would you be given access to goods that are denied to you under crapitalism, but you could have them now and with only the debt of making your consumption neutral.
If it is determined that hours of labor is the standard then the hours to make a Maserati is the hours you will need to contribute to have one. 
Any question that you will never have a Maserati under crapitalism?
My system delivers you one just as quick as production can meet demand, first come first served.
If you leave the car in working order the hours needed to make your consumption neutral will be less than if you crash it.

I'm sure that the math nerds can make webpages to calculate what you need to contribute to make your consumption neutral on the labor of others.

Quote
I don’t think in “dog eat dog” terms either and I never did.
Then why do you support a dog eat dog system?
Your 'free' markets still starve me unless I meet your demands.
You will not give to me from your pile unless I create value in excess of your compensation.
You will not sell me your widget unless you get more than you paid for it, thereby eating my dog because I don't have access to your widget for less.

Quote
This is exactly the reason why people in the market place say “How can I help you.” Nobody would say that in your system.
Sure they say it, but do they live it?
How many panhandlers have you given a dollar?
How many have you cast contempt upon and told get a job?

In the free market all money is still going to be debt money, and debt money makes us slaves to those that have the money.

Under my system panhandlers, human traffickers, drug pushers, and prostitutes all cease to exist.
They don't have to beg or traumatize the lives of others to eat.

Your free market still leaves me to starve unless I submit to wage slavery.

Quote
I don’t want people to submit to my rules either,
Yes, you do.  How do you propose to keep your free market in place?  Either folks submit to exploitation by those that have money to trade for their labor or they starve.
Does you system come with a free lunch?
Mine does, although I would think that the life of leaching on the workers would not be a pleasant one.

Quote
Also I don’t demand that the entire world go to my system.
Are you blind to your double speak??
How is demanding free markets not demanding the whole world submit to your system?
Really, AG??

Quote
If you want to try some ridiculous social experiment, than go ahead.
So, the monarchs are winning,.....

Quote
Don’t force me to join or to pay for it.
I won't have to force you, when you take off the crapitalist blinders you will see that my system compensates your work much better.
I may just have to wait until the herd, and your herd mentality, catches up.

Quote
The type of work you describe here is not stealing at all.
OMG,....LOL,......seriously??
I have to choose between watching my kids starve or submit to you not paying me the full value of my work and you classify that as legitimate?

Quote
At no time does the employer take the property of the employee, so there is no theft in any of your examples
Jesus H,.....the employer takes the MOST valuable property from the worker, his time.
The system you are supporting steals our lives and gives us discounted paper vouchers in return.

Quote
Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted? 
Indeed, why should the worker settle for less than the entire value of his labor?

Quote
the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place
If he did the work himself, ok, at least he contributed that much labor.

Quote
or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did
And how much of that 1.2 mil came from the value that his workers created and how much came from charging grandma $2 for $1 worth of potatoes?
Did he exploit the worker or gouge the consumer for this money?

Quote
He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
Ok, I can agree to that, his labor entitles him to one share of all the work done.
Will he divide the profits by the number of workers, or will he keep the millions while paying the hundreds?

Quote
The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
That is circular logic, you can't point to crapitalism to justify more crapitalism.

Quote
When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk.
And what risk is that, that the worker will wake up to his enslavement and be mad??

Quote
If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money.
Now this is true, crapitalism does come with the risk of loss.
The bankster will make sure that the farmer doesn't get to uppity.

Quote
The labor theory of value and the marxist idea of "surplus value" are behind your misunderstanding here.
Not really, I've stated that I have only read excepts of marx, this proposal comes much more from Kropotkin and Goldman than from marx.

The facts are that we can divide the labor needed to keep the consumer goods on the shelves by the number of folks between 20 and 45 and work less hours and enjoy a higher standard of living than if we let the crapitalists take without working.
The shareholders will never have enough profits to keep for themselves, ie, the shareholders will never have enough value created by our labor.
Today we work from 18 to 65 creating millions in profits while retiring to poverty because the crapitalist keeps the difference between our wages and the actual value created by our labor.

Quote
you have been working so many years and have been a part of this website for so long and haven’t figured this out yet.
Why would I accept my enslavement by a system that you don't fully understand?
IF you did understand it you would be angry.

Quote
It seems that you don’t even want to pretend to understand economics.
I think it is you that doesn't understand economics.
It is you that I think is blinded by effective PR.

Quote
People will loot the stores until there is nothing left then they will degenerate to a level of SUBSISTENCE living.
You say that as if people would be satisfied subsisting, we have already proven that the people will work to improve their lot in life.
So, once the looting you propose is over they will begin to rebuild.

If the people are prepared to transition from here to here there will be no looting, the day after will look much like the last day under crapitalism but in 6 weeks the world will be transformed.

Quote
This means that people will produce only what they need to survive. They certainly won’t switch to your paradigm where they enjoy “the full value of their labor.”
Look around, the people have already disproven you.
Absent the mindset that crapitalism has put into you with very sophisticated mind control techniques people will continue to make the goods because it will be in their best interest to do so.
If you want flashylight boxes you will have to continue to produce widgets so that those that produce TV's can still enjoy having widgets.

Honestly, you mind has been closed to utopia by people that want to keep you on the plantation.

Quote
Many people would rather live in a free society where they can own property.
My proposal does that, no crime will be tolerated by the neighbors.

Quote
The only way the Bolsheviks could get people to behave otherwise was to put a gun to their head.
Well, they did believed in rule by force.
Do I need to yet again restate that my proposal is voluntary and only a matter of opening the eyes of the slaves to their slavery?

Quote
Not even your indoctrination schools or re-education camps can change that.
Well, your's have had a 100 year head start on that, but I don't think you can deny that Generation Y is on the path to throwing off the leaches already.

Quote
Gov is the system favored by dictators the world over.
Name a dictator that didn't have bankster backers and a crapitalist economy,....

Quote
In your system gov would still exist, how else will you control the media?
Nope, it won't.
Control of the media will be taken by the workers that make it tick, not some thugs in uniform directed by a central authority.  Really, stop trying to force your world view on my proposal, it is you that needs thugs to keep the slaves producing.

Quote
Unlike you, I don’t want to “control” anyone, even the media.
As long as the agree to follow your 'free' market rules, at least,....

Quote
If you are so confident that people will work simply "to ensure that they are not parasites" then give your system a try.
That is what I am doing.  I can't do it alone and I haven't convinced my tv buddy to let me into the control room long enough to broadcast the message.  He keeps whining about keeping his job so he can eat.

Quote
I’m not the one calling for “control” and “indoctrination.”
Of course you aren't, your control and indoctrination is already in force.







 97 
 on: April 04, 2015, 03:36:45 AM 
Started by FreeBornAngel - Last post by anarchoguitarist
Quote
Ok, then are you in favor of throwing children into the street because their parents drank the rent money?

Seriously, what is your reaction to panhandlers?
Get a job, right?
Submit to the slavery, bum,...

Will you let me starve in the streets because I recognize the slavery inherent in 'Get a job, bum'?

I would have to know the specifics of each particular case as to whether I would be in favor of evicting a family or giving beggars money or not. Just because you throw some sentence out there to make people feel sorry for “the children” or whatever doesn’t repudiate the free market. It doesn’t change the fact that the free market is the greatest tool to bring society to general prosperity.

Quote
I'll have to read more about the history you reference, but the facts are that it is possible to transition from here to there.  
If the people riot once the food runs out they are going to starve or work at repairs.  
If properly prepared by announcements on the flashy light box, and classes to the kids on how this is going to work, the transition can be made without the end of the world.  It is only a matter of controlling the mass media and the schools long enough to show the people that continuing to produce the goods will lead to a world free from crapitalist domination.

It is not a fact that you can transition to your system.  The fact that you don’t want to adopt it on a small scale proves it won’t work on a large scale.  If your system was better then free coops would out-perform private institutions and more people would choose them.  But because of the relative lack of goods and freedom in your system people would leave your system in order to have goods again and in order to own their own property.

I’m really glad you wrote the above statement about “controlling the mass media.”  This shows the true authoritarian nature of your system if it were ever adopted.  This is why you refuse to allow any alternatives to your system to exist.  You are a monopolist, there can be only one way, your way. In my world your system and free market anarchism could exist side by side.  In your system we would give up crapitalist domination in order to be dominated by you.  I don’t need you to control my media or to indoctrinate my kids thank you.

Quote
Because his mindset is crapitalism, a different indoctrination and he does as I propose.

Typical marxist nonsense, we need to build a new socialist man etc...  We would all follow your system if you could just indoctrinate us to believe that people will work hard without any personal remuneration.

Quote
Well, then you would be wrong, I have worked since I was 14 and currently am 49.
I do it because the slaves around me are blind to their slavery and have not been presented with alternatives, in fact, they have been inoculated against them by their schools.
I don't say, 'I bought this widget for $1 and now I can sell it to this sucker for $10, screw that lady, she has it'.
My 'childish' understanding comes from freeing my mind from the evils of crapitalism,

I no longer think in dog eat dog terms, I don't say to people 'either submit to my rules or starve', I say 'how can I help you', instead.

I don’t think in “dog eat dog” terms either and I never did. “How can I help you” is the attitude one must have to survive in the free market. This is exactly the reason why people in the market place say “How can I help you.” Nobody would say that in your system. I don’t want people to submit to my rules either, except for something like “don’t attack or steal from me.” Also I don’t demand that the entire world go to my system.  If you want to try some ridiculous social experiment, than go ahead. Just use volunteers and your own property.  Don’t force me to join or to pay for it.

Quote
If you'll do this $60 worth of work I will give you $20 of the value you created,...??
If you plant this field with potatoes valued at $1000 at harvest I will pay you $100 for the 3 days it will take you?
If you harvest this wheat that could feed you all year, I will feed you for the time it takes to get the work done.
Seriously, you need to look closer at the 'deal' you offer.
At the value your work creates.
If I create 100% of the value and you take 40% of the money what have you contributed for your gain?
How is that not stealing the value I created?

The type of work you describe here is not stealing at all.  You are describing a situation where a laborer sells his time to create goods for his employer.  At no time does the employer take the property of the employee, so there is no theft in any of your examples. Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted?  

1) the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place, or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

2) The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.

3) When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk. If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money. But the employee still gets paid his wages. Because of this risk the employer deserves a portion of the produce.

The labor theory of value and the marxist idea of "surplus value" are behind your misunderstanding here.  These theories were proven wrong over a hundred years ago. Again, you have been working so many years and have been a part of this website for so long and haven’t figured this out yet. I almost can’t believe it. It seems that you don’t even want to pretend to understand economics. You would rather substitute it with utopian and childish fantasies.

Quote
Then where will the goods come from?  Their desire for goods is not going away, everybody wants toilet paper but they don't want to make their own.  
Will they just lay indolent until starvation takes them to heaven?
I don't think so, they submit to the slavery today because they want to eat, they will join in the new paradigm that rewards them far better, the full value of their labor rather than the crumbs left by the greedy.

I’ve already answered this. People will loot the stores until there is nothing left then they will degenerate to a level of SUBSISTENCE living. This means that people will produce only what they need to survive. They certainly won’t switch to your paradigm where they enjoy “the full value of their labor.” There will be no labor in your paradigm, so there would be no value to consume, that’s my point.

Quote
Admittedly I don't have that much knowledge of the time, but I do have this,...There is no communism in Russia, by Emma Goldman.

Also check out Emma Goldman’s work about her Disillusionment in Russia. These are all great works. But it doesn’t change any of my points. Many people would rather live in a free society where they can own property. The only way the Bolsheviks could get people to behave otherwise was to put a gun to their head. Not even your indoctrination schools or re-education camps can change that.

Quote
Perhaps it is you that needs this advice, as you are the one supporting the system favored by dictators the world over.

Actually no, Gov is the system favored by dictators the world over.  That’s why dictators are the heads of governments. In your system gov would still exist, how else will you control the media? Unlike you, I don’t want to “control” anyone, even the media.

Quote
The workers will not be working for nothing, they will be working to ensure that they are not parasites on other workers while enjoying the goods provided by others doing the same.
We don't have to have the paradigm you are perpetuating, you are no different than the banksters, you just want to be at the tip of the (smaller) pyramid that you control while not being under theirs'.

If you are so confident that people will work simply "to ensure that they are not parasites" then give your system a try. I don’t want to be at the tip of a pyramid. I’m not the one calling for “control” and “indoctrination.”  Perhaps it is yourself that you are referring to here.

 98 
 on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:39 PM 
Started by FreeBornAngel - Last post by FreeBornAngel
No, I'm not for re-building our current crapitalist system at all.  I'm for rebuilding the free-market.

Ok, then are you in favor of throwing children into the street because their parents drank the rent money?

Quote from: FBA
Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

Quote from: GA
If society went to a system where people did not have to pay to take goods from stores, then all that "doom and gloom" would absolutely take place. Its not even debatable. It happened already when the Bolsheviks abolished money after the revolution in Russia.

I'll have to read more about the history you reference, but the facts are that it is possible to transition from here to there. 
If the people riot once the food runs out they are going to starve or work at repairs. 
If properly prepared by announcements on the flashy light box, and classes to the kids on how this is going to work, the transition can be made without the end of the world.  It is only a matter of controlling the mass media and the schools long enough to show the people that continuing to produce the goods will lead to a world free from crapitalist domination.

Quote from: FBA
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.

Quote from: AG
No, the guy making widgets only cares that he receives a pay check. No worker or business owner stands around at work thinking "I just hope these goods I'm making end up stocked on store shelves somewhere." I mean come on man, do you really think this?

Because his mindset is crapitalism, a different indoctrination and he does as I propose.

Quote from: AG
This childish understanding of labor makes me think that you have never even had a job nor worked a single day of your life.
Well, then you would be wrong, I have worked since I was 14 and currently am 49.
I do it because the slaves around me are blind to their slavery and have not been presented with alternatives, in fact, they have been inoculated against them by their schools.
I don't say, 'I bought this widget for $1 and now I can sell it to this sucker for $10, screw that lady, she has it'.
My 'childish' understanding comes from freeing my mind from the evils of crapitalism, I no longer think in dog eat dog terms, I don't say to people 'either submit to my rules or starve', I say 'how can I help you', instead.
Seriously, what is your reaction to panhandlers?
Get a job, right?
Submit to the slavery, bum,...
If you'll do this $60 worth of work I will give you $20 of the value you created,...??
If you plant this field with potatoes valued at $1000 at harvest I will pay you $100 for the 3 days it will take you?
If you harvest this wheat that could feed you all year, I will feed you for the time it takes to get the work done.
Seriously, you need to look closer at the 'deal' you offer.
At the value your work creates.
If I create 100% of the value and you take 40% of the money what have you contributed for your gain?
How is that not stealing the value I created?

Quote
The only reason they are at work is because they get paid. The moment workers are no longer compensated for their work and goods are "free," no worker will be stupid enough to work for nothing anymore.
Then where will the goods come from?  Their desire for goods is not going away, everybody wants toilet paper but they don't want to make their own. 
Will they just lay indolent until starvation takes them to heaven?
I don't think so, they submit to the slavery today because they want to eat, they will join in the new paradigm that rewards them far better, the full value of their labor rather than the crumbs left by the greedy.

Quote
Unless of course you put a gun to his head and force him to work. That's what they ended up doing in the Soviet Union to get people to work, they had to force them.
Admittedly I don't have that much knowledge of the time, but I do have this,...There is no communism in Russia, by Emma Goldman.

Quote
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of lofty ideals you have about people working for free and for the common good or whatever, no worker is stupid enough to work for nothing. Wake up bro, or grow up, whatever it is you need to do.
Perhaps it is you that needs this advice, as you are the one supporting the system favored by dictators the world over.
The workers will not be working for nothing, they will be working to ensure that they are not parasites on other workers while enjoying the goods provided by others doing the same.
We don't have to have the paradigm you are perpetuating, you are no different than the banksters, you just want to be at the tip of the (smaller) pyramid that you control while not being under theirs'.

Will you let me starve in the streets because I recognize the slavery inherent in 'Get a job, bum'?

Quote from: FBA
This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.

Quote from: GA
You are correct that we don't have to have dollars and that there are alternatives to crapitalism. The only real alternative to crapitalism that will bring about freedom and prosperity is the unhampered free market, unhampered by gov coercion and violence.
What is the difference between markets dominated by world bankers' dollars and one dominated by local bankers in the form of trade goods?
How is getting paid 40 potatoes while harvesting 1000 any different than what happens in a dollar economy?
You are just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

Quote
  In the free market dollars would disappear and people would resort to bartering.  Workers at first may work and barter their labor for any number of things: "grain, eggs, salt, silver, gold, bitcoin etc..."  However after a while they will find that its much easier to trade silver, gold and bitcoin instead of grain, eggs and salt.  At this point silver, gold and bitcoin would become the "money" of society. "Money" is just a tool to make trade easier.  And I believe that there may be multiple forms of money in a free market.  People would choose which form they like, or perhaps use all of the forms. Personally I would probably use silver for my daily expenses, I would keep my savings in gold and I would use bitcoin for online transactions.
Exactly, the option you offer is no different than the current offer.
You just want to be on top and answer to no one, exactly like the banksters today, they just have a head start on you.

Quote
Don't worry, I'm not enslaved by the banker's matrix.
I think I just showed that you are.
Your system is their system with you in charge.
New boss same as the old boss.

Seriously, AG, the only way to end this tyranny is to devise a way to get out of markets entirely.
Until we share freely with our fellow human beings we are just changing out the bosses.
Today they are international bankers, under your proposal they would be whatever local could afford to pay today for more tomorrow. 
The poor would still be at the mercy of those that exploit their poverty to enrich themselves.

 
Quote
Their control over the market and their scheme to expropriate
us exists because of gov controlled money, gov regulation and gov bailouts. Once the gov is gone, the corrupt banking institutions will go bankrupt and banking will be just like any other business.
And the titanic will once again be destined to hit the iceberg.

Quote
Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html

Quote
I agree that Kropotkin was a great man, and an interesting anarchist philosopher. I've already read the Conquest of Bread as I've told you before. Unfortunately some of his economic theories were flawed.
It's true, if he had the answers his offer would have taken the market of ideas by storm, and we would live in his paradise.

Quote
The first step for all Anarchists, from Rothbard to followers of Kropotkin, is to abolish the state.
Right, the end of rule by force should be the current primary goal, I agree.

Quote
At that point you can join some sort of co-operative where people work to stock the shelves of a community store
Hmm, better to think globally so that wars can end.

Quote
Personally, I would rather work for silver or bitcoin that I can exchange for the goods I want.
Then free your mind, small scale crapitalism is crapitalism none the less.
Just because the world bankster becomes the local bankster becomes the local landowner doesn't end the exploitive nature of crapitalism.

Quote
In a free market, anyone is free to do what they like, as long as they don't coerce others.
If I am starving and you offer me $40 for $100 worth of work and the only choice I have is to starve or do your work have I been coerced?

Quote
  You may find a decent Co-op if it has the right kind of people in it or you could even start your own.
Nah, my proposal is global in nature anything less and it fails.
Perhaps it could be began on a smaller scale, but unless the idea sells to everybody it is not worthy.

Quote
I wish you luck, just don't try to force me join your system or try to take my stuff that I worked for.
Nope, if I can't convince you of the preferability of my idea it is not worthy of adoption.
Even if my idea was accepted there will be no large scale expropriation of goods, the banksters will keep their castles, if they can keep their lives.


 99 
 on: March 31, 2015, 01:45:20 PM 
Started by Seth King - Last post by FreeBornAngel
Ok, Seth, I'll make a account over there and see how many responses I get.

 100 
 on: March 29, 2015, 04:55:59 AM 
Started by FreeBornAngel - Last post by anarchoguitarist
OK, AG, now the shelves have been looted and the world is in disarray, what do we do next?

I guess we get back to work building the crapitalist utopia that our brief excursion out of led us into this disarray.

No, I'm not for re-building our current crapitalist system at all.  I'm for rebuilding the free-market.

Quote
Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

If society went to a system where people did not have to pay to take goods from stores, then all that "doom and gloom" would absolutely take place. Its not even debatable. It happened already when the Bolsheviks abolished money after the revolution in Russia.

Quote
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.

No, the guy making widgets only cares that he receives a pay check. No worker or business owner stands around at work thinking "I just hope these goods I'm making end up stocked on store shelves somewhere." I mean come on man, do you really think this? This childish understanding of labor makes me think that you have never even had a job nor worked a single day of your life. The only reason they are at work is because they get paid. The moment workers are no longer compensated for their work and goods are "free," no worker will be stupid enough to work for nothing anymore. Unless of course you put a gun to his head and force him to work. That's what they ended up doing in the Soviet Union to get people to work, they had to force them.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of lofty ideals you have about people working for free and for the common good or whatever, no worker is stupid enough to work for nothing. Wake up bro, or grow up, whatever it is you need to do.

Quote
This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.

You are correct that we don't have to have dollars and that there are alternatives to crapitalism. The only real alternative to crapitalism that will bring about freedom and prosperity is the unhampered free market, unhampered by gov coercion and violence.  In the free market dollars would disappear and people would resort to bartering.  Workers at first may work and barter their labor for any number of things: "grain, eggs, salt, silver, gold, bitcoin etc..."  However after a while they will find that its much easier to trade silver, gold and bitcoin instead of grain, eggs and salt.  At this point silver, gold and bitcoin would become the "money" of society. "Money" is just a tool to make trade easier.  And I believe that there may be multiple forms of money in a free market.  People would choose which form they like, or perhaps use all of the forms. Personally I would probably use silver for my daily expenses, I would keep my savings in gold and I would use bitcoin for online transactions.

Don't worry, I'm not enslaved by the banker's matrix. Their control over the market and their scheme to expropriate us exists because of gov controlled money, gov regulation and gov bailouts. Once the gov is gone, the corrupt banking institutions will go bankrupt and banking will be just like any other business.

Quote
Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html

I agree that Kropotkin was a great man, and an interesting anarchist philosopher. I've already read the Conquest of Bread as I've told you before. Unfortunately some of his economic theories were flawed. The first step for all Anarchists, from Rothbard to followers of Kropotkin, is to abolish the state. At that point you can join some sort of co-operative where people work to stock the shelves of a community store.  Personally, I would rather work for silver or bitcoin that I can exchange for the goods I want.  In a free market, anyone is free to do what they like, as long as they don't coerce others.  You may find a decent Co-op if it has the right kind of people in it or you could even start your own. I wish you luck, just don't try to force me join your system or try to take my stuff that I worked for.

Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!