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16  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Enclave/Group preferences on: March 18, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
Agrarian_Agorist
Quote
What makes you think that the State will not actively resist this through force of arms.

By the state I think you mean the US, which, again, is an unfair standard. Still:

•   The US did nothing to stop the genocides in Rwanda and many other nations. The US did nothing to stop Russians invasion of Georgia (an ally)
•   The US has only recently become overtly active in africa again with africom. This means all of the atrocities and coups, and milita groups in Africa have been operating with no US troops on the ground. Indeed, no report of even drone strikes in the vast majority of those countries. (Cony 2012)
•   The US has not invaded Mexico even though the Cartels challenge their policy and violate their very borders
•   There are neighborhoods in LA the cops will not go into, feds, DEA or otherwise.
•   The US did not use force against North Korea when they openly shelled a South Korean island AND sunk a South Korean destroyer.
•   There have been numerous communes in america and around the world that already practiced what we are trying to do.
•   There were already new nation projects that were not militarily opposed by the US government in the past.
•   Monarchies still exist, and are not a "state" as we come to understand it.

•   There have been many overtly militant organizations that opposed the US (weather underground, black panthers) that did not have all its members wiped out in some mass attack. Overt terrorist organizations like the KKK or the white nationalists or the US based Hebrew Israelites operate without being bombed or gunned down. There are many many many anti-gov militias training unmolested to counter a gun grab as we speak. ( I agree they will probably fail)

•   The US is in serious financial trouble AND is over extended militarily, as you alluded to. It is hard to imagine that they will divert an aircraft carrier group or destroyer group to bomb some arcane colony. Its not like noone would take note of a random shelling of some land for no reason. They could very seriously not even afford the resources begin diverted given the Threat of an Iranian response to an isreali attack, the threat of awar in north korea, the need to intervene in Sayria or some other mid east nation.


Given all this, it is still possible, but not as likely as it is being made to sound. Furthermore, we would be prepared to respond (as evident by the article about defense I linked to and my previous responses about defense) Again, it is a risk.

Your waco example is not relevant. 1- Obviously someone had personal beef with him 2- They were an easy target, peaceful, kept to themselves, and did not desire conflict. 3 They were within the US

Quote
There were some other secondary messages and motives behind them

This cannot be understated. Not only were there reports of fully automatic weapon fire (against federal law without the proper tax stamp. But there were also reports of child molestation (marriage to little girls) which they frown upon heavily. I do not know if any of this was true.

The enclave idea within the US does not call for child sex or automatic weapons.

Somalia has and has always had numerous parties competing for power: foreign states, warlords, and 3 state regions inside Somalia(TFG, Somaliland, Puntland). Furthermore it is in the mid east and is full of natural resources. It is also a muslim country and may harbor terrorists. They are also one of the few countries that militarily expelled and embarrassed the Us (like Libya) This example could not be more unfair.

AS for the sovereign move, there are countries that have tons of child sex (Thailand sex tourism) and countries that have legal drugs, and many of them are not being bombed by the US or invaded or even sanctioned. HA, there are tons of congressman who have child sex. The Vatican is renowned for child sex and yes the Catholic church is left alone, the Vatican has not been bombed or invaded.

Quote
The US government only allows the different organizations exist which doesn't directly question it's(the US government's) power and authority

This is not true. They intervene militarily when they see their vital interests are threatened. these vital interests usually have to do with A) military bases/strategic terratory or B) natural resources. The trouble of invading or bombing has to overcome a threshold for them to be bothered with something. There are many groups and organizations that are overtly anti-american here and abroad. The US has not bombed or invaded all countries.

If what you say is true. Hong Kong should have been nuked by now. Forget Hong Kong, take Colorado and Washington state. They just legalized mary J and should have federal troops marching on them right about now. Or maybe all the states that have Medical marijuanna. The US fed gov does not instantly respond to all threats with overt force or even sanctions.

There are many countries, large and small, with significantly better conditions for business and civil liberties than the US.

Furthermore, when they intervene militarily they often need an excuse (massacres, wmds, on a small colony? ) AND they usually do it after a long series of sanctions.

Quote
If you cannot fend off the US government or some-other government wherever you want to create the enclave, then it will not last very long.  

This leads me to believe that you did not read the article on defense. This is handled extensively. It is "some other country" we have to be concerned about.

Quote
The one thing government protects more than anything else, is its very existence; and AnCap enclave/society would dispel the belief that government is required and therefore become a threat to any and all governments.


The project is based on the very concept that the masses will not and cannot have that concept dispelled form them. Again, Hong Kong exists, and yet tens of millions of liberals want more taxes. No amount of evidence is going to change the statists minds. We don't even have to go to Hong Kong, thee ate States within the Us with lower taxes that do better than other states with higher taxes and more laws and YET people still beg for more of it. this project will not dispel anything nor is its purpose to do that.

Quote
Nobody has yet to explain why a government, any government wouldn't feel that its existence would be threatened by a society which exists without a government.

No one made the claim they would not feel threatened. The claim was made that there would be a low probability of the US or another major western nation attacking us. They can feel threatened all they want. There's a good chance that decision makers wouldn't even know we existed. They don't read their own memos.

Quote
I don't set my expectation high

The ability to defend oneself against or neutralize the US or a major European power is way too high. Again, not Russia, China or Europe, probably combined, could defend against an American attack. This standard makes no sense and is impractical.

Most countries that exist today, 200 something, cannot defend against a major western power. Not even close. What matters is defensive parity between you and your neighbors.

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Some on here think the US will just leave you alone, to operate a society without a government; this will not happen.

No one stated this either, again, the article and my response about meddling addresses this very issue.

Quote
The existence of just one peaceful, productive, non-government system will put serious pressure on governments throughout the world.  It is not exactly like a government will be able to keep saying, "we need government because without it everybody will be dying on the streets," if there is an actual example which proves that message false.  Likewise, the government won't be able to keep bleeding the people dry, when an example exists of a system which functions better while the people don't pay any taxes.

In essence, with the existence of an AnCap society there will be physical -not just theoretical or philosophical- proof that government is not needed.

No, that is exactly the case, the government will keep saying the same line and people will keep believing it. No matter what the government does and no matter how other countries with barely any taxes and with lax laws prosper, they will will get away with the same line for the very reasons you cited. Hong Kong is very prosperous with something like 5-10% tax rate and yet all the other regiments are keeping their taxes steady if not raising them. No matter how bad it gets, even if there is open revolt, the people will simply demand a different government. We see proof of this with the arab spring and the EU crisis. violent or non-violent, the people just vote in new governments.

Bear in mind, I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am responding to your arguments and pointing out counter examples. Furthermore, the enclave within the US is not the same as the move for a sovereign territory outside of and far away from the US.

Basically, your argument is the US will ignore millions slaughtered in genocide, unspeakable atrocities, rampant child sex and white slavery, arms dealings, legal and prolific drugs and prostitution and near o % tax rates, countries that attack and invade their allies overtly, countries that operate explicitly as tax havens to enable the rich to avoid taxes, and countries that harbor terrorists without launching invasions and without bombing the majority of these places. However, a colony with a few ancaps looking to do business with the world is completely intolerable. again I see it as possible, some congressman can take it up as their crusade or something, but I see it as significantly less likely and manageable. They are not invincible or invulnerable or all powerful or all knowing.

Your arguments are perhaps more appropriate for the blueseed project that is trying to make a seastead 12 miles off the coast of California. I can see your worries applying to them because it is close to the US, it exists in order to directly challenge the US system of gov., they explicitly plan to violate US code, and they explicitly want to prove that their system is superior to that of the US system.
17  General Category / General Discussion / Re: A project that I wanted you guys to know about on: March 18, 2013, 02:48:18 PM
I got:

"Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@libertarianpost.org and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/2.2.23 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.23 OpenSSL/0.9.8e-fips-rhel5 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635 Server at libertarianpost.org Port 80"

I'm assuming that it's because it's not up, but just in case. Wink

Also, good luck!

Same.

Go for it, at least you're DOING something.
18  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Software for the Cause: Ideas? on: March 18, 2013, 02:42:39 PM
I wasn't thinking of doing this as a business. I wanted to brainstorm concepts for open source projects. But since you brought it up, let's think about the marketing. Who would buy a strong anonymity device? I think we could target anyone who has ever bought a burn phone, some of the paranoid libertarian types, and other political groups who have beef with the state. But these same people aren't likely to trust a business that's doing things closed source. Would you? If Microsoft offered anonymity services, would you be on board? There's a centralized fail point. If the business gets strong armed into letting down its customers, it's all over. And the users would never know if they were safe or not. I think it's inherently difficult (maybe impossible) to build a business around this, because you don't want users to have to depend on trust.

I wouldn't necessarily trust microsoft but hushmail? Yeah, they seem reputable. Or if MEGA and Kim dotcom got a hold of these ideas, I'd trust his shit because it goes along with his general business model and most importantly HE HAS BEEN BURNED BY THE STATE.

Here is an idea of a business I wanted to start, but I ran into problems of capitalization.
As we all know, the US and other countries are clamping down on capital flight by high net worth individuals. As we also know, bitcoin is able to transfer funds across borders.

I was thinking of setting up a bitcoin money transfer service for high net worth people, offering political diversification. We get the clients here who want to send large amounts of $, convert $ to bit coin. Send the bitcoin overseas. Then, we will have to have the people overseas transfer the bitcoin into currency and buy assets with it. Therein lies the problem, the people over there might not have the demand for bitcoin in that currency. Furthermore, if that is the case, either our team on the other end needs

A) To have people wanting to send $ to the Us in the same amount
B) Have a huge store of cash on had (where would they get it from?
C) Be able to sell the bitcoin at or around the same price we bought it for to get money.

Presumably, the client would then want to buy real estate, businesses, and bank account which we could also manage.

We charge a small fee, 5-10% of the transaction. Obviously we take draconian methods to make sure client is anonymous.

Besides the problems of capitalization, the team here and on the other side would have to be trustworthy. We would also have to be technically savvy and keep our wallets secret and encrypted.

If we could pull it off, literally overnight millionaires.


(One can imagine the cartels having a field day with such a system)

Here are some possible target markets for the device:
Drug dealers, escorts, and political activists or militants. People having affairs. Spies. People talking about secret business plans or company secrets. Diplomats (obviously they have trouble keeping their cables secret...)
19  General Category / Lounge / Re: Fitness as a means to Self Empowerment on: March 17, 2013, 05:00:32 PM
Ben Lowry has some decent fitness videos with free advice from a personal trainer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5r3A4YHvfc
20  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Enclave/Group preferences on: March 17, 2013, 04:42:39 PM
acft you obviously thought a lot about this and I commend you for your effort. I'm interested in the project, and it sounds promising to me.

However I'm not sure that now is the time. I would like to be wrong though.

I too thought this way. But then I asked myself "then when?" Furthermore, I believe that after a financial collapse/after guns are confiscated here it will be too late. No capital will be able to be raised afterwards and this project is somewhat capital intensive. If they take the guns or start some kind of insurrection its game over for all of us anyway. I had to accelerate the project due to current circumstances. There will be a point at which their technological supremacy will be perfect and unable to be resisted. (similar to how cattle cannot resist slaughter houses) Any such project must take place before this time, and given the proliferation of drones and the control of the internet, I believe this time is rapidly approaching.


Speaking broadly here, my thoughts on the subject are this- if we have a smaller group, we're not going to be taken as seriously.

What I mean by this is that if, say, we had a colony of 1000 or so anarchists living on an island, State intellectuals would simply ignore it by claiming that our political ideology can only work on a small scale- this problem is akin to the one the Communists have to deal with.

TL;DR I think we need a large group to really show how voluntarism can work.

Let me be absolutely clear. I do not care what state intellectuals think. They need only not actively resist us through force of arms. The purpose of this project is NOT to prove a point. The purpose is to actually achieve freedom for those involved in the project. I would prefer it had 0% visibility and that almost no one outside ancap circles even knew about it.

I am by no means a  proselytizer. My goal is not to spread liberty or liberate mankind or a state. My goals is to free myself.
21  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Software for the Cause: Ideas? on: March 17, 2013, 04:29:23 PM
Instead of commenting on the Ideas given here, let me muse about what it would take to bring some of these ideas to fruition. Even the most simple ideas (see pencil example known in austrian circles) take a lot of work to accomplish.

Let’s exclude my idea which would require product development, which would complicate matters. For product development we would need to consider raw materials, manufacturing, design, design iterations, consumer testing, prototype manufacture, etc etc etc.

For the sake of illustration, let us say we want to start a legit ancap owned and run Software company for the purpose of developing encrypted software solutions.

We will need a corporation, Wyoming corporation or LLC being my personal choice as investors can remain unlisted. A corporation gives us limited liability, the ability to pool capital more easily, unified identity.
We then need bylaws, Federal Employer Identification number(EIN), State EIN. (like a SSN for companies)

We then need marketing material logo, target markets, website, (marketing plan)

We then need to define our product line, budget, Operating method (Business plan)

We the need to find reputable programmers, test their skills, and presumably pay them. Volunteer work is nice, but the quality is shaky and people may not be committed or produce work in a timely  manner consistent with whatever quality standards we establish. If we take the independent contractor or employee method of getting labor, we need capital to pay them.

If we take the open source route, we still need experts on our side to verify the code additions and make sure changes are legitimate and to test the code on multiple platforms. Testing code on multiple platforms requires access to multiple platforms. If we need to buy testing machines that means more capital. If we have an office (which probably would not be necessary given this industry) That would mean more capital as well. Throw in a good amount of costs for lawyers, accountants, fees, etc.

This is also assuming management sets all this up for free. Coordinating all these activities (management) would make or break this or any other venture.

For something as simple as say, developing an encrypted version of AIM, we would need about 50-100 pages of planning.

Now, this is to be able to do this in a consistent way with repeatable quality performance.
I know that the grass roots and open source sort of “labor-of-love” stuff is all the rage now, but eventually we have to make some money, and that requires a private for profit company(under US business constraints). I am not sure if the donation or crowd sourcing business model would be able to sustain projects that would require hours and hours of coding, iterations, testing, packaging etc. Programmers and UI designers need to eat and pay rent!

This example does not include: some wiz kid in his moms basement banging it out OR software professionals who donate their time to this project in their spare time.
Now, I suppose it would be possible to do a project similar to a coding house…
In so called major league gaming, a bunch of nerds move into a house to save on living expenses and essentially all they do all day is game.

Theoretically, if you could find SKILLED and DEDICATED people who specialized in all the different languages necessary for something like this (say /MYSQL, ASP, JAVA, CSS, UI Design, Graphics designer) AND they were all willing to move into the same large house, say a mansion, to save on costs… you might be able to get away with paying them peanuts or only making enough $ to pay their expenses while they dedicated all their time to these projects. In the real world though, I doubt this “coding house” would materialize.
22  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Enclave/Group preferences on: March 16, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
MAM
“Benefits: it would be nice if there were bushcraft, weapons and tactics training available. But I can't think of anything that the market couldn't or wouldn't supply.”

On a large property that was acquired, we could have firearms training and instruction events. It would be as simple as booking a reputable instructor and setting a date. We would either need to build facilities for room and board or patronize nearby hotels for the time being. There are firearms training facilities that take group engagements that already have everything set up.

Tear-Down_the_wall
“If you could have a city of around 40,000 people run a completely anarcho-capitalist community, I think it'd show the world it could work anywhere. A city that size has many of the same problems a larger city has but they're not amplified. However the solutions the smaller city solved could be amplified for larger cities.”

I agree, however I am seriously unsure whether, at this point in time, there are 40k of us on the planet. Even if there are, I have no idea where they are or how to communicate with even most of them.

Furthermore, a whole city as an enclave would be difficult to pull off, especially if one wanted it to remain tax free, regulation free, and under the radar. What I envisioned was a ranch or small abandoned town (some of which are actually for sale) with over 100 acres. You can get a ranch in the mid-west with water on it, in a state with decent firearms laws for 500k-1.5 mil with 100-1,000 or more acres. This ranch would be a rally point and a training ground as well as a portal for foreign ancaps to train in firearms.

The water would enable us to practice farming and irrigation techniques. The land would allow us to practice homesteading and building techniques.  (homesteading as in preparing raw land for building, not as in the property theory)

The purpose of firearms training will be for defensive ability for the sovereign land we get (this enclave is a stepping stone to a sovereign land somewhere.)

Syock

“Monthly fees would look suspiciously like a tax to anyone living there.  What would happen when someone stops paying?”

I think I should have used the word dues. This would be much like a club/investment group. To stay a member in good standing in any club or investment group, when there are dues or capital calls you have to contribute or you fall out of good standing or are dismissed.

And so what would happen if you did not pay would simply be losing good member status and ultimately, being removed from the group.

The dues are not meant to replace taxes. The club or investment group is a precursor to any sovereign enclave movement later on.  The sovereign territory has a different set of rules laid out by a charter every member who wants to go there signs. There are no taxes or dues in it.

In my system, in order to pay for recurring costs of “public goods” (even though the initial infrastructure would be built with bonds/ equity from the members) we pool money over time to form endowments for a specific purpose. For example, Harvard has an endowment, out of which interest and earnings each year are used to fund different projects. And so, we will set up road, defense, etc. endowments, where the interest and dividends and earnings off of those investments are used for repairs and new acquisitions. In this way no one pays taxes, instead, the earnings and interest  off our investments and endowments pays for commonly used infrastructure (of which there will likely be little.)

This method requires a lot of money and a lot of planning, but I see no reason why it cannot be done. If a rich kid can get 50k a month from a trust fund, we can get 50k a month from a trust fund we set up and earmark that 50k for whatever “public” good we desire instead of hookers and blow. This is not the only method of funding without taxes, I have several I have explored in my full write up (about 100 pages)

“I could see paying in upfront for a large tract of land, but how would that land be divided?  Who is going to get the swamp land that no one wants instead of the meadow with the spring water?  “

Well, with the enclave phase, which would be domestic, the ranch is treated like a country club. Whatever buildings we erect there are accessible to all members, as well as the entire property.

As for the sovereignty phase, after we build up a base of dedicated trained ancaps who are serious about the idea, we go about finding land.  Let’s say for the sake of argument we get an island with 70k acres.
We set up a company that will act as the original owner of all the land. It can offer deeds as lease hold or freehold or conditional. See this article for more info on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathian_anarchism

Anyway, everyone interested in the project pools money by buying shares in the holding company set up for that purpose. There are different classes of shareholders : vanguard, pioneers, and investors. Vanguard are the very first to go and prepare the land and take the most risk. (especially if there may be combat involved.)

 These people get to pick the first plots of land as a reward, but are limited to the % of shares they own.
For example, if I invest 20k  and the total pool is 20 mil I own .1% of the stock. We take that percentage and divide the island up according to how many shares people bought. So, on an island or land mass with 70,000 acres I get 70 acres(.1%). I register what I want with the company and we keep it moving. Now the place is secure and prepared and pioneers come to live there and build. They get the second round of choice according to their investment %. Finally investors get their choice(investors are not expected to move) again due to their share%. We might enable people to buy their way up the class scale as well. This way everyone gets land according to what they risk. Obviously, we will need capital in addition to acquisition to build on the land, and this will need to be accumulated or invested as well.

Let me note that the vanguard should be the best trained and equipped members. Among the same class, it is first come first serve, and so the first person to claim GPS coordinates of land they want and have it registered will get the deed recorded as freehold or leasehold, or a conditional deed (depending on circumstances at that time)

“How is this different than the FSP in any meaningful ancap sense?  “
1.   The project is centered around one property or town vs. all over the state
2.   We are not minarchists and have no intention of taking over the politics or freeing the state
3.   We will be more militaristic
4.   We will not tolerate socialists or collectivists
5.   We have a very specific goal and a very specific focus
6.   We have a unified organizational structure and unified investments vs. loose association with somewhat similar ideology
7.   This is specifically for ancaps that conform to a specific set of beliefs.(to be defined)
8.   We are not proselytizing, meaning trying to win converts , instead we want to aggregate already existing ancaps who are ready to act.

Eventually, the goals is to set up a sovereign charter city or nation somewhere, and not just live in a freer state of slavery.

I can’t think of more at the moment but there are probably more.
23  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Enclave/Group preferences on: March 16, 2013, 12:40:54 AM
Read the thought experiment about the Pitcairn islands... they run the whole island which is de-facto sovereign with like 50 ppl. If 50 ppl can run an small island nation, there is no reason ancaps can't do something comparable.
24  General Category / Lounge / Re: Q and A with JustSayNoToStatism on: March 16, 2013, 12:36:43 AM
Do you have a GF? LOL
25  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Viability of purchasing Sovereignty on: March 15, 2013, 11:47:06 PM
Hello Everyone, let me jump in here, since I am actively working on such a project for ancaps.

MAM
“My question is simply is it even possible to purchase sovereignty?”

Maybe, but it would have to be upheld through force of arms. I would STRONGLY suggest anywhere but US and Europe as far as a sovereign movement. An enclave movement can be set up anywhere.

Victim77
“Somalia?”

I would jump at the chance to start a private charter city in Somalia. Not only do they need investment and commerce, but it would be a great opportunity for developing private defense industries. They have tons of wide open uninhabited land. Somalia has good grazing lands for cattle, fertile land for growing produce (when out of drought seasons). Very mountainous terrain in some parts making true invasion very difficult.
No real air force or navy to speak of, SUPER IDEAL. Competing “governments”, clans, and warlords means no unified opposition.

For example, google map “xaafun” A private charter city on that peninsula would be ideal IMO. We go in as a private corporation with development in mind. Even if technically we are under their gov., over time we develop power and eventually the would be unable to tax us. Slowly our businesses gain market share and slowly we build up arms and soldiers. If we gain enough influence, we might even be able to bribe our way into sovereignty.

Ally with a local tribe and chieftan to get permission, provide jobs for the locals and meanwhile, Build up as much military power as you can.

Business opportunities:
Water purification/ irrigation
Power generation
Beekeeping/Khat production
Garbage disposal, Gun manufacture, ammo manufacture, gold/silver currency production, contract binding and enforcement.

 “Agrarian_Agorist”

“I believe it would require organizing the likes of which Anarcho-Capitalists/Voluntaryists have never seen before; and it would require centralized authority to oversee it -both of these items are anathema to the entire concept of Anarcho-Capitalism and Voluntaryism, making it an even greater reason as to why Ancapistan would never go anywhere.”

I agree it would take a great deal of organizing. However, central authority is not anathema to Anarcho-capitalism, COERCIVE/INVOLUNTARY central authority is. There is nothing wrong with joining an organization and playing a role with a common interest  or goal in mind. There is also nothing wrong with large scale voluntary organizing.

“I do have a plan for everything, but the most important thing, which is how to prevent other governments from interfering with Ancapistan like they had done with Somalia. “

Preventing all outside interference not possible. Even the US has Israeli spies. You cannot prevent it, you have to manage it.

“I also, think that as far as land goes it would be better to have at least one port -so some water access would be preferable.  I would advise against an island, because it could easily be surrounded.”

I have to disagree here for a number of reasons:

Defense:  

360 degree radar for air and sea without worrying normal traffic from other countries.

An island with finite coordinates can be easily gridded out for zone defense in case of invasion and/or artillery fire .

With an island, you see your enemy (unless a sub) coming from a long way away and you have no air space restriction etc. which means you can stalk, observe and engage them on your terms without worrying about airspace violations.

Islands are ideal for long range stand-off weapons, ranging up to and over 100 miles. With no terrain, unless the enemy has significant ecm capability (some western nation) they are going to be susceptible to ground to sea anti-ship missiles.

Ability to create port city where wealthy can come with yatchs, etc and not be bothered by other countries. More ports opens possibility up for more trade and tourism.

The more remote the better:

Only a handful of nations have aircraft carriers, furthermore, if we had even a dozen anti-ship missiles, risking a carrier to fuck with some anarchists on an island makes no sense.

Out of sight out of mind, if we are remote we are less likely to register on peoples radar screen.

Distance from current conflicts
Distance from existing states
Distance from resources

The more remote, the harder it is to be meddled with. Few nations have the ability to refuel mid-air, so even air strikes become problematic without a carrier or mid-air refueling. Furthermore, even with ships, say a destroyer, if you are remote enough even they would need a place to refuel and resupply.
Again, very few states have the capability to send an army across the sea.

I have a relevant thought experiment here:

http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=181

Find on Page “Case Study Pitcairn Islands”

About defense and nukes: If nothing else PLEASE READ THIS

http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=79

Seriously, please read this.
WMDs like Nukes are not necessary. One has to worry about defensive parity of surrounding countries and/or credible and reasonable threats more than anything. No one can defend against a US led cruise missile assault and invasion. This is not reason to not do the project.

More than anything, the project will be dependent on 1. Having people willing to kill,fight, die for the project and 2. Defense contracts for the arms we need. 3. Planning and funding

Stop thinking of defense as : how can I defend against the US. NO ONE CAN DEFEND AGAINST THE US. Please stop thinking you or any nation will be able to stop a large western nation from invading. If Libya and Iraq could not do it you won’t be able to. You need to be able to stop 3rd world nations and large 3rd world militias and DETER western nations. If they really want to, they will get you and no nukes will be necessary. Risk is part of the game.

About meddling:

It is part of the game.
Most of the objections can be overcome with planning, and yes planning, training, and funding would have to be extensive for such an undertaking.

I prefer having freedom and dealing with meddling States vs. living under current slavery and dealing with TOTAL meddling, down to what I can and cannot put in my body or do with my sex organs.

Many may prefer to remain a slave because it is comfortable or safe. For those the solution is simple, don’t join one of these projects. I would not mind a reduction in quality of life for true sovereignty.

About Paranoia:
Some say we would be instantly attacked as soon as we went sovereign. We would deserve to be wiped out if we did not have a formidable defensive strategy in place beforehand. Still, I do not think it would be that much of a danger depending on how we go about getting the land and declaring sovereignty.

I agree, states are vicious and ruthless murdering organizations, but even they are limited in power and somewhat rational. Again, unless we had a very well-oiled military machine with MODERN military arms on contract (say, from Saab http://www.saabgroup.com/) I wouldn’t bother. We wouldn’t even have to be big, 100 men well-armed and supported by light armored infantry can conquer most cities in the US.

On the one hand, we have the example of Israel declaring independence and then immediately being attacked by all surrounding countries at once.

At the same time, there have been many countries that have been peacefully created without such bloodshed. Keep in mind, states have limited resources, limited capability, and limited interests. I mean, there have been genocides that states have virtually ignored. If they would ignore the murder of millions in Rwanda, why would they bother with a small peasant territory ? Unless we are dumb enough to meddle with their resources I doubt they would even blink. Still, even if they did, only a handful of states have striking capability outside their own borders. This is yet another reason why I prefer a remote location. Think Gough island or Prince Edwards islands (google map these)

There are some historical examples of enclaves and new nations in this article as well http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=88
26  General Category / General Discussion / Enclave/Group preferences on: March 15, 2013, 10:19:25 PM
Hello Everyone. The purpose of this post is to gather feedback and points of view on the concept of forming enclaves in the real world as a method of achieving liberty in our lifetimes.

The idea is outlined here:


http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=88

How would we be defended?

http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=79

Any examples of small de-facto independent communities?

http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=181

Find on page "Case Study : Pitcairn Islands" - Successful colony with only around 40- 70 ppl


Furthermore, these types of projects have been popping up all over the place as more and more people become convinced that mass political change is difficult if not impossible to achieve given the government’s control of education and the mass media.


Examples of these projects include, but are not limited to:


    Jeff Berwich’s projects in Mexico and Chile- largely commercial ventures for rich clients, however.

    Doug Casey’s project in Argentina- again commercial and upscale.

    The attempt for charter cities in Honduras.
    
The new projects in the US by Glenn Beck,

Seasteading (blueseed project), Venus project(socialist nonsense, I know),

The Citadel (http://iiicitadel.com/index.html), and a few more I cannot think of at the
    moment.

Any ideas for an Ancap version of one of these projects, preferably aimed at working class/middle class people? It could be staged in the states, maybe not. I would favor the States simply because even with the prospect of restriction, there are many states that still respect the right to keep and bear arms.


Here are a few questions to guide responses:


If one of these projects started up and was based on an ideology you endorsed, would you join it?


Presumably, monetary contributions would need to be given, say, to pool money in order to acquire a large track of land, for example.

How much would you be willing to contribute outright, as dues(monthly, yearly), or
maybe a large one-time stock purchase? $20/Month?

$200/year? $2,000+ one time stock purchase for lifetime membership? Money could
also be raised for specific projects I would think.


What kind of benefits would you expect to receive from this type of group besides the promise of founding a free market city or town? For example, membership in this group could bestow insurance and other business discounts, access to social events, access to group facilities, access legal advice( a club lawyer) etc etc.


The project might not require all members to move, but would you move to this new territory once it was prepared for inhabitants or would you rather be a financial or ideological supporter.


Do you think the group should have an armed wing/ militia and if so, would you participate?

I think all of the arguments for freedom are sound, and everything has been written and said that needs to be written and said, and that it is time to put some of these ideas into action in the real world.

Furthermore, I would think that such a movement would be a precursor to a larger movement outside the US for a permanent sovereign land.

Thanks in advance.
27  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Software for the Cause: Ideas? on: March 15, 2013, 09:27:44 PM
A small handheld communication device that can be used to text chat securely in person or on the net.
It has very little  memory, so it cannot possibly be read like a hard drive once it is overwritten or erased.
It has a small keyboard, built in encryption algorithms.

It can be plugged into the net and you can connect to other such devices directly or through a network. Since it can only hold maybe a paragraph or 2 of info even if it is confiscated it will be impossible to know what was said beyond 2 par. of text. (assuming you encrypt the communication) There should also be a spam button that floods the small memory with nonsense almost like a digital etch and sketch.

You may add encryption features for it, like encrypting the message with a code before sending it over IP and/or having it generate a code necessary to access software that will send an authenticated message to a user.

You could try to authenticate messages the same way bitcoins are authenticated such that you know the person who sent you the message really has a device and that that device is generating codes consistent with a security algorithm.

Anyone who wants to communicate securely can buy one and it can be cheap, think of those code generator things you get with online games or bank accounts, only for secure communication, maybe through some network with codes that you need a code(generated by the device) to access.

So for example, I want to talk to Seth securely, I get one, he gets one, maybe we have a public key or maybe we have usernames or maybe each device has a unique user number that is not assigned to real info. Somehow we exchange this info. (Maybe we can use an encrypted message routing software or app on the device, enter device address, and public/ private key)

 We might each generate a code with the device, enabling us to access the software(or app) that routes encrypted messages.( we press "generate code button" this code must be used to access message routing software) Then we chat in 1 or 2 par. phrases and it is sent (encrypted heavily via public and private keys) to the devices we have and there is no real record of what is said if what we say is longer than 2 par. The encrypted message is sent to the device address via routing software and the devices decrypt the message and display the text.


Uses: Secure communication even with bugs or informants around (you pass it back and forth)
Secure communication over the net that a prosecutor cannot prove took place.
Allow anyone to talk about anything with no fear of eaves dropping.

This device would be KEY for planning things.
28  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Something that annoys me about the anarchocapitalist community on: March 09, 2013, 12:44:57 AM
I'm goona go out on a limb and guess he means black people. People are different =/= black people are monkeys.
29  General Category / Lounge / Re: Q and A with Seth King on: March 09, 2013, 12:38:21 AM
Do you have a girlfriend?
30  General Category / General Discussion / Re: I got your free education right here! on: February 21, 2013, 10:52:13 AM
I am soooo sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsNJtnUb7c
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