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1  General Category / General Discussion / Re: ferguson on: August 29, 2014, 11:38:30 PM
I know I'm going to get rotten fruit thrown at me for saying this, but I've been listening to the Alex Jones radio broadcast every day.

Yes, he's still a statist. Yes, he still advocates statist things. But he is often the first to break stories that only later become national news headlines.

And I do agree with much of his analysis. His analysis on this whole Ferguson thing is that it's largely staged from both sides. Yes, most people are useful idiots, but there are provocateurs on both sides, including law enforcement and the rioters.

That whole thing is a total mess and I really view it as bad guy vs. bad guy. There are no libertarians or anarchists in Ferguson. If there were, they'd be absolutely nuts for staying there.

Imagine, for a moment, that you really are a libertarian anarchist living in Ferguson. Imagine YOU were living in Ferguson, right now. What would YOU be doing?

Do you know what I would be doing? I wouldn't be attacking police stations, burning down Kwik-e-marts, and I wouldn't even be protesting. I'd probably be going about my daily business, working, making money, trying to spread the message about Bitcoin and voluntaryism, etc. and trying to avoid getting caught up the fight between two bad guys. Oh, and I'd be planning my move to NEW HAMPSHIRE ASAP.

Seriously. I don't understand why more anarcho-capitalists are not moving to New Hampshire RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

This Ferguson thing is NOT an isolated incident. When the dollar collapses and the shit hits the fan and martial law is declared because every major city is rioting and all of the people stop getting their welfare checks do you really want to be the lone voluntaryist living in your city?

I think a lot of people probably think that their area won't riot because it's mostly white people, and traditionally white people don't loot and burn down Kwik-e-marts. But there are a TON of white people that are depending on welfare checks. And if they start going hungry, watch out. It's not about race. It's about philosophy and morals, and the truth is that 99.99% of white people have their heads firmly up their asses just like every other race. And they believe in theft and socialism and such.

I'll tell you, I don't know how fellow anarchists can handle living in a city where they don't know any other anarchists activists and are the only voice of reason in a hundred mile radius. It doesn't matter how smart you are or how you could see the writing on the wall 10 years before everybody else. If you don't take ACTION then you'll likely fair no better than the rest. /rant

If you lived in Ferguson you'd be to poor to move or a state functionary.
2  General Category / General Discussion / Re: ferguson on: August 29, 2014, 11:35:00 PM
The day the rioters attack police stations and not local businesses is the day I'll take an interest.

I won't claim to know all the details of what's going on, but the people protesting Michael Brown's murder and the people looting businesses aren't necessarily the same people. I think you're imagining people all over Ferguson getting angry over the murder and then going all over the place and looting whatever is nearby, just because they can. I think it's closer to: a group of protestors rallying in public to make people aware of what happened, along with a smaller group of people taking advantage of the lack of protection from law enforcement in some places to loot businesses.

A couple quotes from twitter:

Quote from: zellie
A lot of black women were protecting stores from being looted. You just don't see those pics because they didn't want pics taken. #Ferguson

Quote from: dolly moehrle
"Someone threw a Molotov at the restaurant across the street but a bunch of protestors stomped it out" #Ferguson

Quotes taken from here. Looking through some of the pictures of protestors on that feed, it looks to me like the majority are protesting peacefully, and based on what people in the area are saying it sounds like the people protesting try to protect businesses from looters when they can.

Based on this map put together by the owner of that twitter feed though, it looks like the main area where the protests are taking place is a ways away from the area where most of the looting is taking place.

Some more evidence that protestors are protecting businesses here.


Also looting does nothing to do with the fact that the police executed an unarmed kid.
3  General Category / General Discussion / Re: ferguson on: August 29, 2014, 11:33:27 PM
Why the insults?

He is just angry because he has recently realized he advocates for a state and murder.


To ass 7, the uprising has been violent as well.  I see no one to cheer in such a case.  Your desire for a violent uprising doesn't go over well with many people.  Better examples of community reactions have been discussed.  Get over yourself.

Because systems built on oppression and violence will just let you over throw them.
4  General Category / General Discussion / ferguson on: August 14, 2014, 12:46:41 AM
You'd think if an ideology was based on opposition to the state based on its violent nature the murder of a teenager by police and a subsequent uprising by his community would be a major event. It's websites would have headlines about it, it's activists would organize support drives. It would start solidarity actions. I expected libertarian groups to have this reaction to the Ferguson events. I went to three libertarian/ancap sites. (Mises, LP and this one) I found nothing on these events. This leads me to believe that you don't actually care about the state, and your just whiney kids.
5  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer (aka assasin7 is silly) on: August 12, 2014, 08:14:33 AM
You demand?  You know who else demands?  Government.  

Stop your BS about how bad ancap is due to a pointless theoretical link when you are advocating government.  

Well then I advocate a government, I'm game for anything that will feed the hungry, house the homeless and free the oppressed.

Right, because that is what always happens with these overthrows.  Open your eyes.

It has almost happened many times, and can happen again. Previous times the old order has been able to retake power or destroy the liberatory possibilities of the revolution. In Spain it was crushed because the anarchists refused to take power. In Russia the invasion of five armies and civil war caused a slow slide into dictatorship. However, all of these examples provide heroic attempts to meet human need. I don't have the time right now but in tomorrow I'm gonna provide statistics.
6  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Argentina Calls for International Action Against Ancap on: August 12, 2014, 08:08:52 AM
The capitalists supported it. Most factories allowed the military police free run of the factory and pointed them at trouble makers. Ford even had a "interrogation" room in the plant. (The End of the World as We Know It? page 218, AK Press)

As long as one class controls all of the productive machinery of society to talk of "voluntary socialism" is to talk of impossible socialism. If the workers cannot live but by working for bosses how can they hope to create a voluntary socialism?

That is an ignorant post on so many levels, although for your average, perhaps not.   


Great argument.

How can a poor person hope to create "voluntary socialism" if they have no wealth? By my count heres the minimum amount of needed to create a community:

1. money for land

2. money for raw materials

3. money for inputs

4. time to conduct the business ventures to buy all this stuff

5. the know how for this to work.

People who have little money and have to work most of the don't have that, so "voluntary socialism" isn't possible.
7  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer (aka assasin7 is silly) on: August 11, 2014, 10:40:30 PM
You demand?  You know who else demands?  Government.  

Stop your BS about how bad ancap is due to a pointless theoretical link when you are advocating government.  

Well then I advocate a government, I'm game for anything that will feed the hungry, house the homeless and free the oppressed.
8  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Argentina Calls for International Action Against Ancap on: August 11, 2014, 10:38:01 PM
Considering that the Argentine capitalists resorted to a terrorist dictatorship that "disappeared" 10,000 people I can't blame them.

That is an indictment of government, not capitalism.  Just as I don't mind voluntary socialism, it isn't the economic system, it is the violence behind it.


The capitalists supported it. Most factories allowed the military police free run of the factory and pointed them at trouble makers. Ford even had a "interrogation" room in the plant. (The End of the World as We Know It? page 218, AK Press)

As long as one class controls all of the productive machinery of society to talk of "voluntary socialism" is to talk of impossible socialism. If the workers cannot live but by working for bosses how can they hope to create a voluntary socialism?
9  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer (aka assasin7 is silly) on: August 11, 2014, 09:26:03 AM
I think it quite convincingly ties the theoretical lines of classical liberalism to fascism. It demonstrates how libertarian definitions of freedom can justify extreme tyranny. Namely the idea that property is the ultimate or only right. This definition of liberty allows you to support the destruction of anything or anyone threatening property. It allows you to justify a dictatorship because it defends property.

You know you are still referring to two philosophies that are not ancap right?  

Last I heard from you, you were ok with the destruction of anyone or anything threatening to have property.  

You don't seem to grasp that property is essential to human life.  Those who threaten property threaten your very existence.  Poorer countries take it more seriously.  A lot of people will kill you if you take a fruit off their tree.

They are the theoretical roots of ancap. Libertarianism grew out of classical liberalism, ancap grew out of libertarianism.

We produce enough food to feed ten billion people, the earth has 7 billion people. Yet there is still starvation, I demand that we use the food we produce to feed those who starve. If capitalism feeds them without violence than let capitalism continue I'd rather not have a bloody revolution. If it continues to deny them food, then the only moral thing to do is bring about a society that feeds them, and feeds them well. Not just enough to live but good food, healthy food.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-holt-gimenez/world-hunger_b_1463429.html

America has six empty houses for every one homeless person, I'm involved in Take Back the Land a group that moves homeless people into bank owned homes. My area has cold ass winters, every winter homeless people freeze to death. By moving them into bank owned homes we save lives. We also prevent evictions, forming physical blockades to prevent the cops from kicking people into the streets. This is how the revolution will happen.

http://takebacktheland.org/
10  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Argentina Calls for International Action Against Ancap on: August 11, 2014, 09:18:03 AM
The average argentine isn't anti anarchist. That's all I'm saying.

If by that you mean the militant action towards capitalists to steal and kill for their own benefit you were boasting about...   yeah.  

BTW, sounds an awful lot like a government to me.  


Considering that the Argentine capitalists resorted to a terrorist dictatorship that "disappeared" 10,000 people I can't blame them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

Here's an interview with workers in the Factory Without a Boss (formerly Zanon):

https://libcom.org/library/zanon-factory-occupation-interview-with-workers

FORA the first labor union in Argentina was an anarchist lead and influenced one:

https://libcom.org/library/revolutionary-unionism-latin-america-fora-argentina

People have a tendency to assume that there time and place is the default, so if you live in an area with allot of anti anarchist sentiment then you assume that all people are have that sentiment. This isn't true, a peasant in 1936 Catalonia would probably be an anarchist.
11  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer on: August 11, 2014, 09:08:34 AM
Assasin7, what do you think of Rothbard's proportionality principle, the idea that retaliation against aggression beyond some point itself constitutes aggression? (The idea that, for instance, shooting someone for stealing a penny's worth of candy would constitute aggression?) What do you think, also, of Rothbard's point that his property order didn't constitute a full ethical system?

Also, what if people enforce individual ownership of property through social ostracism or non-violent methods? Would you fear that this state of affairs would lead to tyranny? Would you be ok with people enforcing an ancap property order in this way? What do you think of the Modern Times intentional community that Josiah Warren and Stephen Pearl Andrews founded? Do you think the sort of social order they had would lead to tyranny if tried under different circumstances? Do you have any problems with that kind of society?

OK, I'm not sure what that has to do with libertarianism/ancap and fascism.

I can't imagine that being possible beyond a medieval village. Like where everyone knows each other really well and there isn't to much industry. That is how property existed in those conditions. I can't for example see a massive corporation being able to use social ostracism in a useful way.
12  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Argentina Calls for International Action Against Ancap on: August 07, 2014, 07:53:05 AM
I was responding to the other guys point about anarchism having a bad rap in Argentina, it doesn't. It is associated with with militancy in the struggles of the working class.

Militancy in the struggles of the working class counts as bad reputation. 

The average argentine isn't anti anarchist. That's all I'm saying.
13  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer on: August 06, 2014, 10:59:31 PM
I was an ancap, this book put the nail in the coffin of me ever becoming one again.

You still have not presented a reasonable answer as to why.  You also came onto this forum copy/pasting false garbage from other people, and ignoring our answers.  If you were ancap, you were quite convincing to the contrary.

I am also curious why you consider ancap to be right libertarian.  Most libertarians tend to hate me when I make them follow their own logic to conclusion.  Libertarians of all types are better than current systems in my opinion, but they are nearly all still statists when it comes down to it.  Pretty much anything that you put 'left' as part of the title tends to be statist by default, which violates any claim of An-anything.  Since you are claiming left libertarian now, I assume I can also see you as a statist.  You are upset at ancap because a statist made claims about other statists branching off from another statist thought, and you blame ancap.  The nonsensical claims from you are endless.   Please explain what is going through your head and stop all the accusations.


I think it quite convincingly ties the theoretical lines of classical liberalism to fascism. It demonstrates how libertarian definitions of freedom can justify extreme tyranny. Namely the idea that property is the ultimate or only right. This definition of liberty allows you to support the destruction of anything or anyone threatening property. It allows you to justify a dictatorship because it defends property.
14  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Libertarian responses to the apprentices sorcerer on: August 06, 2014, 10:54:25 PM
I was an ancap, this book put the nail in the coffin of me ever becoming one again.

You still have not presented a reasonable answer as to why.  You also came onto this forum copy/pasting false garbage from other people, and ignoring our answers.  If you were ancap, you were quite convincing to the contrary.

I am also curious why you consider ancap to be right libertarian.  Most libertarians tend to hate me when I make them follow their own logic to conclusion.  Libertarians of all types are better than current systems in my opinion, but they are nearly all still statists when it comes down to it.  Pretty much anything that you put 'left' as part of the title tends to be statist by default, which violates any claim of An-anything.  Since you are claiming left libertarian now, I assume I can also see you as a statist.  You are upset at ancap because a statist made claims about other statists branching off from another statist thought, and you blame ancap.  The nonsensical claims from you are endless.   Please explain what is going through your head and stop all the accusations.


I made my account while I was an ancap, I just never posted here until after I became an ancom. Although my politics when I posted here were awful.
15  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Argentina Calls for International Action Against Ancap on: August 06, 2014, 10:52:06 PM
Real anarchists are actually a pretty powerful force in argentine politics. We founded and lead its first trade union. We were influential in the piqueros and factory occupations.

Real anarchists?  By the way, they are not talking about your so called real anarchists.  I also seriously doubt you can legitimately claim 'we' when referring to things other people did before you even knew it existed.  

I was responding to the other guys point about anarchism having a bad rap in Argentina, it doesn't. It is associated with with militancy in the struggles of the working class.
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