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1  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: why capitalism is unsustainable on: September 27, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
We don't have to have dollars, we do have to have workers.

Money makes 0 pairs of shoes per hour, money loads ZERO trucks per hour, investment banksters live from a level of unawareness that is truly stupefying,.....do I need to continue?

I will if I have to,....

Hasn't anybody on this board read Proudhon or Kropotkin?

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/author
2  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Registration for new members has been disabled on: May 14, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
Hey, I am seeing avatars and want to add mine.

I'm not computer literate enough to post it here,....

But here is a link to where it can be found,...

If you would allow me access long enough to upload it through the board, I got those skillz.
3  General Category / General Discussion / Re: World Peace in 20 Words or Less! on: May 14, 2015, 04:46:32 PM
Do you realize you will get a staggering number of people that read this and not get it, nor agree with it?   

Exactly.  That's why we have to use a lot of words trying to explain what we mean, or find some suitable metaphor or analogy that other people "get".  And even then, they may still not agree with it.
Ok, so you point was,...what?


Do you realize you will get a staggering number of people that read this and not get it, nor agree with it?   
So, I should give up and curl into a ball?
Give up?  No.  Just recognize that what you are trying to do is extremely difficult.

Yes, years of trying have made this obvious,...

4  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: May 14, 2015, 03:49:49 PM
Perhaps not, but how much starvation can be blamed on banksters demanding payment when the crop fails?

Honestly, AG, I have argued the exact position you hold, continue down the non-aggression path and you will find that I am right.


If you think we advocate the 'banksters' or bailouts, you have completely failed to read anything on this forum.  I would suggest you reconsider your stance against ancap because you have a completely fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism, and anarchy.  
I know that nobody here is advocating in favor of bankster bailouts, but you are arguing in favor of maintaining an employing class and an employed class that will use money created, or manipulated, by those that have a lot of it.
Any system that leaves wage slavery in place, as an-crapery does, will not substantially change the status quo, at best it changes the makeup of the ruling class from the most violent of criminals to those fortunate enough to have provident parents and not drunks.

Honestly, AG, I have argued the exact position you hold, continue down the non-aggression path and you will find that I am right.
I'd respond to all that, but it's time-consuming, and all you seem to be doing is repeating yourself anyway.
 I could give you a rather detailed description of how an anarchist society would work, private production of money via free banking, a decentralized common or customary legal system, even some idea of how so-called defense agencies would work.  After all, I've thought a lot about it.
I would agree that free money would make the difference between an-crap and an-communism slight.
It would make what I propose unlikely to prevail in the marketplace of ideas for hundreds of years.
However, what you propose still leaves (wage)slavery in place.
Those with the ability will exploit those who's parents didn't leave them something to work with.
If your parents drink all their money away, you will have to find work with whoever agrees to exploit your poverty.
Why do you figure that money has been allowed to continue in existence?
Because it serves the purposes of the ruling class.

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You think people will somehow act differently if they were offered your society of mutual aid and no money--but what if they don't?
Then the idea doesn't float.
People know that if they don't work there won't be food, they also know that if they want what the division of labor brings them they will have to do their part.
My proposal is sound, it can be had with a minimum of education, the transition can be made seamless.

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So if you're really serious about a voluntary society, you won't object if consenting adults engage in voluntary capitalist acts
Yes, there will be no thugs to enforce my proposal.

 
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because altruism and mutual aid only go so far before breaking down.

Wrong, you will see in time that what I propose is the only way to stop the haves from exploiting the have nots.
Why you want to insist on keeping the system favored by even the 'communist' states as the way to manage anarchy is beyond me.
The statists use this system because it keeps them on top.
If those that rule by force were not satisfied with this system's ability to keep their progeny shearing the sheep they would change it.
Why do you figure that they kicked Emma out of the country?
Why do they equate anarchism with chaos?
Because they recognize the danger to their position these ideas present.
They support crapitalism because it keeps them in power.

I'm sorry, AG, but you have been soooo manipulated that you can't even conceive of freedom, you think that following the rules is the way to go,....if only you could adjust them to your liking,....

? I think you got me mixed up with someone else.  I know what freedom is and I haven't mentioned any rules. When did I say "following the rules is the way to go" ?
When you said that you would keep crapitalism and oust the current ruling class so that you could be part of the new ruling class.
As long as people agree to follow your crapitalist rules everything will be ok.
You refuse to look to how my proposal benefits the worker far more than the ruling class.
In fact, the ruling class goes away because under my proposal, there are no employers or employees.
Your an-crap proposal just shuffles the deck more into your favor.
I will be overjoyed when we move to ancraptitude, but it will only be a step toward the destination I've(with Emma's help) illuminated.

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Your system is if we want consumer goods we have to "take" them.
Let's not confuse 'take from the shelf' with 'take by force'.
How do you get something from the shelf to your house if you don't take it?

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I never said people should eat without working, that is your system.
That is not my system, I merely said that supporting a bum was better than enslaving him, but if the vast majority of people don't work we starve.

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In your system people would take all the free goods and eat without working.

Not for long,...

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Ok you got me there, well done.  You actually answered one of my questions, and answered it well. (I'm not being sarcastic)
*smiles*
Thanks for being honest, it is refreshing, and rare.

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However, this is an occasion where these thinkers were wrong.
I agree that the flaws in their proposals kept them from winning in the marketplace of ideas in their lifetimes.
However, if Emma had had Costco to point to when she said that the worker should toss off the monkey masters and manage things themselves to their own benefit, perhaps she could have sold the idea more successfully.

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There is no reason why everyone should have an equal share and there is no reason why everyone should have an equal vote.
Equal value will not happen, some people have simple needs and no desire for material goods, but what is this about equal votes?
Are you suggesting that some group of people can vote to eat me for lunch?
You'll have to expand on that vote thing if you want me to understand where you are coming from.

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This is where our real argument is and I don't recognize the exploitation in any of your examples...
I don't doubt that you wouldn't, I once argued an an-com to a halt with the very words that you are using.
I had asked him if he thought that somebody would drive a truck to get a load of oranges just because they wanted their neighbors to have oranges and he said yes, now I know he was right.
He finally gave up on me when I suggested that we should take the shoes off his mother's feet and share them with everybody else.
Now that I understand where he was coming from and would like to apologize I can't contact him.
The really awful part is that we are in the same town.

The exploitation of crapitalism occurs when a person has to submit to being exploited by an employer to eat.  The choice to sell one's labor into the market for less than the value that it creates is not a free choice when the alternative is starvation.
If all the widget factories come to pay $10 an hour while the worker creates $100 in widgets why would a competing factory pay more than $10 an hour?
Once the bosses of whatever career realize that they don't have to pay more than $7 an hour, why would they?
Why would the widget factory continue to pay $10 an hour when nobody can find a job that pays more than $7?
Do you think that the cfo lives in a vacuum and isn't aware of what the prevailing wage is in the area?
I lived in mexico for 2 years, wages and prices were nearly uniform across the whole country and nearly everybody I talked to knew the price of any item I asked about.  
Do you think that the person setting wages at a company is any less well informed?

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because there is no exploitation.
Have I exploited you if you mow my lawn and I don't pay?
Have I exploited you if you mow a yard for me for $25 but I sold the job at $50 and did nothing for my $25?
Perhaps on the first sale I should get something for finding the customer, but how many times should I get paid for finding that customer?  At what point does my contribution approach zero?
Why do I get half the money though my contribution diminishes with each repetition?

 
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When someone is paid $10 an hour that is what the value of their labor is.
That is a convenient definition.
It reinforces that the boss is right in using your labor so that he(or his wife and kids) can live without laboring.
The value that your labor creates is it's value, if you weren't being exploited for your poverty then you would be the boss and keep the entire market value of what you have created, but you are being exploited because you don't have benefit of crapital to buy your freedom from wage slavery.

By being trapped in valuing things we continue in the slavery.
If you work you have a share of the work coming.

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Yes and yes.
So, you advocate starving a child because his dad is a drunk?
You advocate starving mental patients because they don't see the world the way you do?
People are not free until they can eat(at least temporarily) without submitting to the tyranny of a boss.

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I seriously doubt that, you haven't looked at the Labor Theory of Value or Subjective Value.
I know all I need to know about crapitalist smoke and mirrors.
The only reason economics exists as an area of study is to find justifications to keep the sheeple on the farm.

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What if I formed a private property community in your anarchist world.
Why would you?  My proposal doesn't take your personal property away, unless you are a factory owner or Costco shareholder, and even then we won't be taking your mansion, fancy cars, gold bars, or crown jewels, only the tools we need to continue living free from your exploitation.
Even after taking your factory we will feed you and ask that you join in contributing to the support of the human race.
If you are over 45 we won't even ask that.

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Then my neighbor offers me a job for an ounce of silver a week and I agree to work for him.
Why would you when you can just order one delivered to your door from the internet?
What are you going to do with this silver?  You won't be eating it.
Of course, you are free to do as you please, but once the proposal comes into existence the paradigm will have shifted and your ounce of silver will have no real value, there is no more marketplace to commoditize human beings any more.
Your other neighbors will deride you for being crapitalists and seeking to re-enslave them.
But, don't get me wrong, you can do as you please as long as you don't force others to comply.
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Am I free to live in this private property community and work for someone else if I choose to?
Of course, but were you to free your mind from the crapitalist mindset why would you?

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OMG, how you don't recognize the exploitation in paying somebody less than the value of their labor is beyond me.

This is where our real argument is and I don't recognize the exploitation in any of your examples because there is no exploitation. When someone is paid $10 an hour that is what the value of their labor is.  You can imagine that it is some higher number, but you are only imagining that. Humans value goods subjectively. I value my labor at a certain rate, someone else may value it differently.  But there is no objective value to someone's labor.  Labor is a price determined on the market like any other price, through negotiations between buyers and sellers.

Oh my gosh, he *really* believes in the Labor Theory of Value,
Well, actually I don't.
I don't believe in value at all, it is crapitalist smoke and mirrors.
It is nomenclature that doesn't exist in a world free of exploitation by the haves.

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Without the "capitalists", where would laborers get the tools and materials they need to actually make goods?
Seriously?
Where did the bosses get them?
The workers made them.
The world does not end in the absence of crapitalism and banksters, contrary to the programming you have received.
As long as the people hold the most dangerous superstition we will never see anarchy.

I don't see a save draft option, I will continue shortly,...
Ok, where was I?
Oh, yeah,....

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Why do prices for identical goods vary from store to store, and sometimes even within the same store? 
Greed of the price setter?
Belief in the matrix?
Better crapital situation?  Lower borrowing costs?
Because the workers that keep the shelves filled are too mindwarped to seek freedom from the monkey master?
I could go on,...
But then as long as you refuse to see that we have to workers but we don't have to have dollars then I would just be spitting into the wind.

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Who's getting shafted if the retail store cannot sell a good at an offered price and has to lower their price, say in a sale?  The laborer who already got paid for his labor a long time ago, or the distributor and/or retail store, who may not be recovering their full costs on the good?
How about all of them.
The price you pay for that cup of coffee in the morning pays the taxes for the corporation, the ceo, and all workers down to the guy that swept the parking lot, how much of the price of your cup of coffee goes to pay the taxes of the ceo?
When we toss off the monkey masters what do you figure will happen to prices?
How much less work could be done if we didn't work from Jan to May to pay the tax man?
Lord knows how long we work to satisfy profits, I'm sure profits are a bigger chunk than taxes.
All because you accept the smoke and mirrors put up by the ruling class.

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Even more fundamental: how is the value of a good or service determined, in your view, and how is it related to the price?
My paradigm comes without the concept of value,.....
If you can't give your product away you may want to find another endeavor to pursue, but if your product flies off the shelf faster than  you can produce it then we should find you some help.
Price is subsequent to demand, demand is all the 'market signal' needed to manage production, again, if you can't give it away stop making it.

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I think I know how you might answer a couple of these, but I'm not sure about how you would answer the rest.
Did ya?



5  General Category / General Discussion / Re: World Peace in 20 Words or Less! on: April 29, 2015, 02:59:28 PM
Do you realize you will get a staggering number of people that read this and not get it, nor agree with it?  
So, I should give up and curl into a ball?

That people are not sufficiently interested in alternatives to the matrix is not a good reason to stop pointing out that what they think is reality is really an illusion.

As for the opinions that they form from their ignorance, I could care less, popular opinion doesn't impact on the truth.

What Karl Marx’s “The Communist Manifesto” was to the 19th Century, Gene Sharp’s “From Dictatorship To Democracy”  is to our globalized era. The book has spread like a prairie fire since it was written 20 years ago and has been translated by activists into more than 30 languages. It has become the bible of nonviolent revolution in the Ukraine, Tunisia, Egypt, Serbia, Iran, Burma, Georgia, Belarus, and numerous other locales.

In his manifesto, Sharp quotes a 14th Century parable by Liu-Ju:

“In the feudal state of Chu an old man survived by keeping monkeys in his service.  The people of Chu called him “jugong” (monkey master). Each morning, the old man would assemble the monkeys in his courtyard, and order the eldest one to lead the others to the mountains to gather fruits from bushes and trees. It was the rule that each monkey had to give one-tenth of his collection to the old man.  Those who failed to do so would be ruthlessly flogged.  All the monkeys suffered bitterly, but dared not complain.

“One day, a small monkey asked the other monkeys: ‘Did the old man plant all the fruit trees and bushes?’  The others said:  ‘No, they grew naturally,’ The small monkey further asked:  ‘Can’t we take the fruits without the old man’s permission?’ The others replied: ‘Yes, we all can.’ The small monkey continued: ‘Then, why should we depend on the old man; why must we all serve him?’

“Before the small monkey was able to finish his statement, all the monkeys suddenly became enlightened and awakened.

“On the same night, watching that the old man had fallen asleep, the monkeys tore down all the barricades of the stockade in which they were confined, and destroyed the stockade entirely.  They also took the fruits the old man had in storage, brought all with them to the woods, and never returned. The old man finally died of starvation.”

Yu-li-zi says, “Some men in the world rule their people by tricks and not by righteous principles. Aren’t they just like the monkey master? They are not aware of their muddle-headedness. As soon as their people become enlightened, their tricks no longer work.”

Explain to me how this authoritarian example differs from what we do every day.
One merely has to substitute boss, president, or parent for master.







6  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: April 29, 2015, 02:25:10 PM
Goods aren't 'valued' in my system at all,.....only in the paradigm you accept,.....
Crapitalism is soooo different than what I propose that the terms you are trying to fence my proposal in with are not applicable.

You are the one who mentioned "what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger."  What you are attempting to do here is calculate value.  But go ahead, backtrack and pretend that there is no "value" in your system when you just described how to calculate it.
We can call that value, the difference is slight.
However, the goal of 'value' under my definition is to insure that I don't cause you to work more for me to consume more, but value under your system is all about that.
The more value the worker creates for the least wage is what crapitalism is all about.
My wanting to insure that my creation of tp is in equal amount to my consumption of hamburgers is so that I can know that I am not a leach, and not so that I can order you to work overtime so that my wife can have a new tennis bracelet.

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Your system would definitely deliver more family time since there wouldn't be any consumer goods available at all.
Ok, you've jumped the tracks, the whole proposal is predicated on the workers continuing to work.
If you could order anything you want from the internet would you agree to work?
You work now with only the promise that if you work long enough to pay the rent, taxes, insurance, food, school loans, etc, then you can order something from the internet, if any vouchers are left.
My system doesn't come with all the hours that you have to work to 'justify' having insurance, you just go to the doctor for free.
Rent won't exist, houses will be free for the occupation.  If your neighbors like you enough maybe you can get a mansion.
I'm sorry, AG, but you have been soooo manipulated that you can't even conceive of freedom, you think that following the rules is the way to go,....if only you could adjust them to your liking,....
My proposal is very pragmatic, if we want consumer goods we have to make them.  I say we divide that equally, and you say that some people should eat without working.
How many widgets did the shareholders produce?

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Society would degenerate to a level of subsistence living.
Yes, that is what I asked, what are you going to do now?
Will you lay down and die?

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You mean after we adopt your system that rewards sloth how do we create a system that doesn't reward sloth?
How many widgets did the wall street bankster create?
And you say my system rewards sloth,...your system rewards criminality.  Just ask Michael Milken, he got to keep most of the money he bilked invertor out of,...
Wall street banksters just let the bank pay, they kept what they stole,...

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Just don't force us to live that way or steal our stuff, thanks.
Again, read what I have said, let me repeat, if the people don't willingly accept the system it doesn't float.

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So you didn't show any exploitation between the Employer and the Employee in my example (that's because there isn't any) and you even admit that the Employer deserves a share.
How didn't I show exploitation?
If you create $100 worth of widgets and you receive less than $100 in value then you have been exploited to that extent.
When the boss takes value that my labor creates and buys his wife a car, then I have been exploited for her to have a car.  How many widgets did she create?  None, but she gets a car just for marrying the guy willing to exploit my labor?
Seriously, remove your blinders, please.

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Why should he divide it equally?
Because he doesn't want to be a parasite on the worker?
As for equally, if the worker does all the work and the farmer does nothing then the worker deserves all the money.
I get that the system we have had indoctrinated into us says that the farmer has blah blah blah coming for blah blah blah reason, but don't you figure that if you were a wall street bankster you would create an education system that kept the slaves on the farm?

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Where did you get this idea from?
Emma Goldman, Petr Kropotkin.
You know, anarchists,....

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What if I'm a worker and I've been there ten years and work 6 days a week, should I get an equal share with someone who was been there one year and works 3 days a week?
Ok, so I work at dodge for 40 years, do I get gold plated toilets like a wall street bankster when I retire?
How many goods did the bankster put on the shelf for you to consume?
So, I work at your company for 20 years, do I get a shiny tennis bracelet like your wife's?
How many widgets did she create for you to sell?

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If they agree on an amount then the employee works there, if they don't agree then he doesn't work there. That's fair.
It would be fair if the business owners didn't collude on wages.  Why do you figure that wages are about the same over any geographic area?
Starting wage here is $10 an hour, unless you work at some national chain, then it is less.
This irregardless of you being a machinist and creating $1000's or a scrubber at a car wash creating only clean cars.
Crapitalism pays the lowest wages it can, charges all it can in the market for it's goods and keeps the difference.
I say the workers deserve more.

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Actually, many of the 1% got there because of special favors from gov, not capitalism or any free-marked activity.
Your blinders are astounding me, you are an anarchist, aren't you?
Even without government if the lowest wage paid for farm hands is $10 an hour while the hand creates $100 an hour how do you figure that if I can exploit enough hands I don't wind up in the top 1%?
You are defending the system that brought us the one percent, it was created by them and sold to you to keep you on the farm.

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You mean "some of which came from not paying her the full market value to put boxes into vans" LOL.
No, I mean all of it.
Every penny fedex paid to the nfl came from exploiting the workers.

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Well it may by crap to you but its not crap to her,
She's not too well educated, she hasn't read any books that weren't required in school.
She gets all her information from the flashy light box and talking to people just like her.
She doesn't seek out information that doesn't confirm the beliefs she already holds,....

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or at least its less crappy than her other options from her perspective
Yeah, living under a bridge does not appeal to her, nor does letting her kid starve.
These are the options to not being exploited by whatever employer.

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There is no exploitation in your FedEx example.
OMG, how you don't recognize the exploitation in paying somebody less than the value of their labor is beyond me.

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People are free to sell their labor for whatever price they agree to.
Ok, are they free when the employers collude on what to pay?
Are they free when the choice is submit to the exploitation or starve?

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Oh, and in your system there is no longer any changing weather patterns or potato blights or bad harvests?
No, what I am saying is that if the potato crop fails the wheat producer won't let the potato farmer starve.
If the crop here fails the difference will be made up from where the crop was just fine.
Good luck getting the bankster to feed you when your crop fails, he will just take your farm, put you and y our family on the street, sell your farm, and buy his whore a Mercedes,...all while laughing about it at the masonic lodge,...stupid slaves,..... Lips sealed

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Your Fedex example serves as an example of a contract, not exploitation.
If the choice didn't include starvation I would agree, but the crapitalist can afford to wait for you to get hungry enough to work for the wage offered, it is not a free choice.

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1) You have not given me even one example of exploitation in all your rantings.
Yes, I have, you are just double thinking your way past them.

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Not every example of starvation can be blamed on someone else.
Perhaps not, but how much starvation can be blamed on banksters demanding payment when the crop fails?

Honestly, AG, I have argued the exact position you hold, continue down the non-aggression path and you will find that I am right.
7  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: April 27, 2015, 07:10:06 PM
Goods aren't valued by the amount of labor that is put into them.
Goods aren't 'valued' in my system at all,.....only in the paradigm you accept,.....
Crapitalism is soooo different than what I propose that the terms you are trying to fence my proposal in with are not applicable.

What is more valuable, the Saturday that you spend earning enough money to buy that bauble or the Saturday you spend with your friends and family?
Which system on the table, mine and yours, do you suppose will deliver more family time while still making consumer goods available?

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The "Labor theory of Value" was proven false over a century ago.
I'm not trying to substitute one medium of exchange, dollars, for another, time.
I am trying to insure that I contribute enough to the collective that I can go to my grave knowing that I was not parasitical on the workers.
Crapitalism will never deliver that because the very system is to suck the life blood from those improvident enough to not use the system to their own advantage.
Highest commodity prices for the lowest wages, ya know?

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and even some good thinkers like Kropotkin and Goldman, built their economic theories on the Labor Theory of Value.
I agree that they didn't have all the answers, but I think that my proposal corrects their mistakes.
They didn't have walmart to co-opt, they couldn't take over the distribution system that is Costco to use to benefit those that put the goods on the shelves rather than the banksters that have mind controlled us with schools and flashylight boxes.
The fact is we have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
The shift is in the paradigm, using the nomenclature of crapitalism will not deliver us from enslavement.
Remaining in the box that is wage slavery crapitalism will leave us just that, slaves.
Tinker with it how you please the fact is until we don't make tit for tat trades and contribute because it is the right thing to do and not because we fancy some bauble in the trade then we will always be slaves to those that have more.

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So everyone would stop working and take the free stuff until it was gone.
Ok, lets grant that what you say did happen, what do we do now?

Do we sit around and cry in the beer we don't have because we don't have means to supply it, or do we set about creating a system that doesn't reward sloth?

My system floats because of the willingness of the people to do right, ie, to contribute to the collective whole because we love one another.

Imagine that,....not possible, you say?
Then you have had your mind warped by those that want to keep you on the plantation.
And you willingly accept it.

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Voluntary doesn't mean much when we have you controlling the media.
Control of the media in a non-coercive environment would be in the hands of those that create the content and make the transmitter transmit.
What I propose is that once the workers that do that now are exposed to the facts as I present them, they would send out the message of their own free will.
What I refer to as control of the media is the workers taking control to get the message out to the other workers that it's time to stop being slaves.
Perhaps in the transition coercive control could be chosen as the direct action of an autonomous group, but not as you envision of a central dictator.
If my proposal is not freely chosen it doesn't float, I only ask for the means to get the message out.
So far, my friend at the tv station refuses on the grounds that the sheeple wouldn't rise up and join us in throwing off the chains of their bosses, anyway, and that the thugs collectively known as law enforcement officers would just silence us for a number of years.

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So what happens to your society whenever everyone decides to not work a minute and still get free stuff?
I know generation y is making that a real possibility, but work is the curse of life, no work, no eat.  
That will not change under my management system.
The vast majority of rational thinkers can extrapolate the consequences of their actions and will act in accordance with their own best interests.
Perhaps there will be those that refuse, and they will be outcasts just as they are today, with the caveat that they won't be protected by thugs that are jealous of anyone using force except them.
Will you stand up and defend the bum?
If yes, then it is on you.  I am sure that each community will have their favored village idiot and dispense with the others.

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I'd rather play video games all day and still get the free stuff.
You say that, but would you really play video games suicidally?
Would you push your pleasure button until all the food was gone?
I don't think you would, nor do I think that the workers around you would put up with it for long.

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This is what the majority of people would do.
I think looking around says otherwise.  
Absent the mind control that keeps the slaves enslaved they would not sit idle until the food ran out, just count the survivalists if you need a demographic.

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1) the employer cleared the land,...
Or did he pay some wretch to do it for him?
Did he take the potatoes he didn't pay as wages to the harvesters to pay the planters?
Did he set it in motion from the potatoes his father exploited before him?
Perhaps he gained favor with a bankster and used debt to set it in motion.
If he put a large farm together on his own labor why would he hire more labor unless it was to exploit that labor for his own profit?  That is crapitalism, after all, isn't it?

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He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
Indeed he does, he deserves one share of the work.
But that is not what crapitalism does, it does not divide the fruit of the labor equally among the workers, in fact, it rewards the non-producer much better than the worker, that is how the 1% get to be the 1%.
My friend works at fedex, she gets $13 an hour and has been there 8 years, she gets all giddy when the managers give out free swag, but she doesn't connect the fact that her not being compensated fully is what made that swag available.
Now let's add in the $12.1 million NFL sponsorship, $1 million per nascar race, et al,.... $90 to $95 million in total.
All of which came directly from not paying her the full market value to put boxes into vans.
Her putting boxes into vans netted the bosses far more than it netted her.
Crap if you ask me.

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2) The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive.
He could have had it for free under my proposal because the plow maker recognizes the importance of the potato farmer having good tools.

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Because of this risk the employer deserves a portion of the produce.
And that risk is eliminated by what I propose.

Only if I stay locked into the nomenclature that defines crapitalism do your assertions apply.
If the workers do the work, we don't have to carry the parasites that the banksters and their families are today.
They would have to find productive work and diminish the total work needed by what they contribute instead of ever increasing the burden with their insatiable appetite for profits.

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Show me where there is exploitation.
I hope my fedex example serves here,...

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But you won't understand it unless you first grasp what going on between the employer and employee.
I understand far better than you my friend,....
It is you that are blinded by rhetoric, economics didn't exist as a 'science' until the anarchist started gaining a footing with the workers.

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If you don't have enough money to buy bread then you starve, the "free market" didn't starve you.
If it wasn't the 'free' market that refused me bread until I was exploited by someone with more money than me, then who did?

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Maybe if the CEO of walmart breaks into your house and steals your last loaf of bread then you can blame him
Why would he do that we he can gather willing slaves by convincing them that they are free?

None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.
 -Johann von Goethe

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Also if someone chooses to give you a loaf of bread then the "free market" just prevented your starvation. Everytime someone gives away something this is also part of the free market. Charity and gift-giving are just as much a part of the free market as bartering or monetary exchanges.
Well, at least there is that,....now if we could just get the blinders off the workers so that they realize that they can be free of parasites.

Slave-monkeys-get-revenge-on-cruel-owner.

This is the one I was looking for, the other one is just funny.

If we sound like freeborn to random people we meet, I understand the resistance. 
Just callin' em as I sees 'em,....

Heroic effort by anarchoguitarist to respond to FreeBornAngel. 

Is it that hard to see that governments are parasites that co-opted the market, pretending to be protectors of markets when in fact they have been destroyers of markets?
Read the Monkey Master fable above and ask this question again,.....

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...but is also a means for encouraging the productive development of goods and services from those resources
I suggest that the shame of being a parasite would equally motivate people, it does a good job today.

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how do we decide which goods and how many of those goods should be made in the first place?
I propose that a full shelf needs no further production of that good and an empty shelf requires more production.
Stocking levels will gel and production meet demand with no more ups and downs than today.
Probably less because scarcity drives up prices and the highest prices are the end goal of crapitalism.

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What will you do for me in return?
So, unless cousin vinny gives you something you would deny him?

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without any government or authority figure commanding or ordering it to make it so.
You become the authority figure in this analogy, absent your demand for something in return you refuse to give up your chair, thereby forcing vinny to contribute to your profits.
If vinny had been raised right by his momma he would have felt obligated to do something in return for your gift and not the other way around, by reversing this obligation as you do you have ended any 'free' market and established your refusal as the authority.
If your gift is bread then vinny can choose starvation or to meet your terms.

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It is a natural and spontaneous act of society in order to produce and distribute the goods and services that society wants.
I agree but instead of requiring tit for tat trades, and thereby creating authority, one merely contributes to the warehouse and the warehouse worries about distribution from areas of high stockage to areas of low stockage.
If you can't give your production away perhaps you should look at producing something else,....

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People are not indoctrinated into the use of money and capitalist markets;
Seriously?  How are we not bombarded from birth that we must give some tit if we want some tats?
TNSTAAFL, after all,....

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they are merely indoctrinated into thinking that governments are the good guys protecting those things
Merely?
The Most Dangerous Superstition,....Larken Rose.

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encouraged to fear the alleged chaos that would exist without governments keeping order.
Absolutely, not many people are suicidal, they will continue to produce goods under my management system, I guarantee.
And presented with a knowing choice, would choose mine as rewarding them better than crapitalism ever could.

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people still have to be educated and prepared for such a revolution,
Not unless we get control of the pathways into their minds, ie, the media,....

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the process of doing that will cause small changes to occur
I concur,...

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resulting not in revolution, but the devolution of government as it withers away, resisted, ignored, and bypassed by people who no longer accept the legitimacy of government.
The most likely scenario,....

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Ending the legitimacy of government in people's minds seems to me to be the key to getting rid of government and ushering in an anarchist society.
Absolutely, it is just a matter of how, spectacle today, or death by ignoring over time,....

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We cannot possibly hope to openly fight governments unless we can match them in manpower, weapons, and technology.
We will not win on the battlefield, death is the domain of evil and we are bringing light.
How we reach the battlefield of the mind is the question, spectacle is faster, but education can work.

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it will only be after governments have been greatly weakened in legitimacy and power,
If those kids in Baltimore could be shown that we don't have to have dollars, but we do have to do the work we could capitalize on the moment, but I can't go and nobody but me is advocating anything but crapitalism that I have seen.
I mean, I'm sure that others have followed the non-aggression principle as far down the path as I have, but I just haven't been introduced to them.

Hello Mac,
The sad thing is that people like Freeborn could be allies if they truly believed in a voluntary society.

Please point to where I have advocated anything but a voluntary society?
Perhaps I have advocated seizing the pathways into the minds of the people, but the people will still have to freely choose to follow my advice.
Mine is not a top down dictatorship, even one as small as the local farmer ordering around the local drunk.

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I would rather be part of a community where I could own property and buy and sell my labor. 
And I would rather be part of a community that recognizes my work as a gift deserving of their own.

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As long as his community doesn't attack us or plunder our resources then the two communities could exist side by side.
I don't see your refusal to associate with us as compatable.
It is you that sets yourself up as the authority over what is yours, we give freely as a matter of pride.
Your rules would require you to exploit our generosity for your own benefit, you've said as much.
You would take from our shelves and contribute nothing.
And because it is better to carry a bum than to enslave him we, in the majority, would let you until your consumption threatened one of us enough to surgically remove you as a cancerous cell.
No, your insistence that we trade at a disadvantage, ie, profits to you at the expense of our labor, would not allow us to live side by side.
I am convinced that with just the leisure available under my system I would have no problems converting your slaves.

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Actually in a voluntary society there may be 100 different communities, each one trying their own type of economic system.
Right, and how is that any different than the world today, the US exploits the labor costs of the poor and your 100 communities would do the same.
Dollars are an accounting trick that exploit those without them to the benefit of those that create them from nothing and trade them to us at face value for our lives.
Crapitalism is that system's dogma.
Just look to the religiously blind adherence to it.

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That's the beauty of freedom is that society doesn't have to fit any one model. Individuals are free to chose what kind of lifestyle they want to live as long as they don't force others.
Absolutely, if you want to work less, consume less, if you want every bell and whistle then work more, or invent the personal computer,....nobody under my system is going to deny Steve Jobs whatever level of consumption makes his tummy tingle,...he can't take it with him, after all.

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The problem with many leftists is that all of society has to fit their mold.
Said the 'free market' crapitalist that refuses all but his own paradigm.

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Its pretty sad that leftists can't even tolerate the existence of one different system or any people who have different ideas.
By leftist I am going to assume that you mean authoritarians such as yourself, and not me, I can't repeat that my proposal will have to be voluntarily emplaced any more emphatically than I already have.

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It reveals the totalitarian and utopian tendencies of their ideology.
UH HUM,.....ditto,.... Wink

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"The whole world must accept it for it to work."
Once the idea is fully understood, it won't be a problem finding converts.

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I wouldn't care if 99% of the world decided to live in some sort of co-op or commune.  Just as long as I'm free to associate with the 1% of like-minded individuals whether it be 100 people or just 10.
Reverse the situation, do you think you could sell crapitalism to someone that only has to produce enough for himself when you are telling him that he has to produce enough to support the bosses and their wives' lavish spending?
That he has to produce one for him and three for the stockholders?

I hope you stay on the voluntaryist path, AG, you will come to see that I am right, just as I did.
I, too, was once a crapitalist, it was the only option presented to me and it was presented with misnamed undesirable opposites to choose from.
Only by following the non-aggression principle was I able to see my way to true freedom.
You will, too.









8  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: why capitalism is unsustainable on: April 27, 2015, 06:37:17 PM
It's true that strictly speaking, we don't have to have a medium of exchange, i.e. dollars.
Thank you very much, you wouldn't believe the amount of denial I have encountered to this simple fact.

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The private production of money is not only possible, but desirable to avoid government interference in the market economy.
How is what you are advocating any different than the wage slavery we experience to the fed today?
The only difference that I see is that instead of the fed exploiting those that have no money it is you.
Does exchanging one central master of the world for a local master change the fact that the rich are still exploiting the poor?
What you advocate is merely the change from one global master to you being master locally. 
The only exploitation you end is the level above your's,....you leave intact the exploitation that benefits you.

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Why should anyone want to work harder than they have to in order to supply their own needs?
My question exactly.
Your answer, to make ME rich.
Why should I have to work Saturdays so that you can drive a Mercedes?
As I said above, you only wish to change the master over you.
If I have no money then I am still your wage slave.

My proposal ends that, as it ends poverty, prostitution, human trafficking and drugs being pushed to children or any body else.

It also will end dirty energy. 
If your car spews noxious gas for me to breathe that is a personal attack on me.
Without profits to bribe the greedy thugs that prefer violently controlling his neighbors to legitimate production we can respond that attack in kind.

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It is here that a market comes into play,....blah blah blah
When you take the time to read the modern anarchist authors you will note that they are without exception anti-crapitalist.

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People can always *say* that they want such-and-such, but human desires are infinite, and greatly exceed our ability to meet them.
Just as the demand for Iphones are met, so too will any demand for maseratis,...etc,....
Demand can easily be made up from the 1000's of unemployed managerial cogs of the crapitalists.
The secretaries, the accountants, the lawyers, and their support staffs will all be free to make whatever goods are in demand.
Without profits and crowd control to affect production I would assume that robots will be made to do most of the manufacturing/drudgery.

Please take the time to read some Kropotkin, Goldman, and Bakunin.

Once you have read why anarchists are anti-crapitalists maybe you will join us in properly using the term.



9  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: April 04, 2015, 02:04:59 PM
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It doesn’t change the fact that the free market is the greatest tool to bring society to general prosperity.
Are you sure about that, AG?  How many alternative economic systems have you looked at?

I think free access to all the work on the planet would do a better job then accepting the crumbs leftover by the boss.

Do you have any hope of owning a Maserati?
Under my proposal production ramps up until demand is met and everybody that wants one, or any other consumer good, gets one.

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It is not a fact that you can transition to your system.
It is as much a fact as any religion, you can't prove that we can't and I can't prove that we can.
However logically, the proposal is sound and proper education meets the transitional needs.

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The fact that you don’t want to adopt it on a small scale proves it won’t work on a large scale.
It can't be done on a small scale, just the toilet paper factory overwhelms any small number of people and doesn't get to the Maserati factory.
Either the proposal is accepted on a broad basis or it doesn't float.

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If your system was better then free coops would out-perform private institutions and more people would choose them
That is a strawman, how do private co-ops obtain goods from a crapitalist absent some medium of exchange accepted/controlled by the crapitalist?

This is exactly why half measures won't bring about the transistion, the mind control of the crapitalists prevents it.
If I entered into a co-op it would have to produce all consumer goods within it's self or fail due to having to trade with the outside crapitalist world.

That being said if enough people accept what I propose the crapialists will be out of luck.

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because of the relative lack of goods and freedom in your system
Let's review the proposal,.....the structure that is walmart becomes the central distribution network, we can include target and Costco, the workers continue to supply the distribution system as if everything were normal, except that instead of paying at the register they just take what they need to keep supplying the distribution chain.

As long as the workers supplying the system continue to do so the shelves are full.

What has happened is the workers have taken over from the owners.
Now all profits accrue to the workers and not the bosses.
At some point demand is met and work lessens.

Instead of working for less than the value their labor creates they now work only to satisfy themselves that they are not a drain on the whole.

If I get my Maserati and leave it in working order when I die how much work have I consumed?  Very little, as the work is still there in the form of a working car.

Now, if I eat, I need to contribute in a measure that equals the labor involved in supplying that food.
I don't have to grow my own food, I can work in the toilet paper factory.

I don't claim to have a lock on what measure most equitably changes the hours I spend making tp into the equivalent of a hamburger, but better mathematicians than me can do the math in minutes and I can access their determination on the web.

I'm at the library, I have to log off, I will continue from here upon my return.

----------------------------------------------------------------

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I’m really glad you wrote the above statement about “controlling the mass media.”  This shows the true authoritarian nature of your system if it were ever adopted.
Not really, once the transition is made control will be in the hands of the workers that make the transmitter work.
Yes, in the short term the mass media will be a necessary tool, but nobody will be sending troops to take control of the towers.  The workers themselves will rise against their corporate masters, or they will remain slaves to them.

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This is why you refuse to allow any alternatives to your system to exist.
I don't have to 'allow' alternatives to exist, they will naturally cease because they do a lesser job of equitably splitting up the labor needed to supply the world with consumer goods.

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You are a monopolist, there can be only one way, your way.
I don't know where you get that, I have repeatedly stated that the proposal is voluntarily accepted as a better method of dividing the labor amongst us or it doesn't happen.

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In my world your system and free market anarchism could exist side by side.
Why would a free worker submit to having a portion of his labor accrue to your wealth?
If my labor creates $100 and you pay me something less than that why would I agree to accept that when I can go next door and only have to labor in the amount of hours that assures that 100% of what I have consumed is replaced?

Under my proposal 100% of my labor meets my consumption needs whereas under your system I get a smaller percentage credited to me while a portion of what I make accrues to you.

How do you figure J. Paul Getty got all that money?
He certainly didn't do without keeping some of the value that his workers created for himself and he didn't get it by dividing the values created equally.
He exploited the poor to his own advantage.

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In your system we would give up crapitalist domination in order to be dominated by you.
LOL, you are trapped in the paradigm,....Have I not repeated enough that the system is voluntary?
Even if you chose not to work a minute in your life you are still going to get fed, albeit with the reputation, and consequences, of being a bum, but you would be able to get your supper without submitting to work.

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I don’t need you to control my media or to indoctrinate my kids thank you.
Jeez, you are trapped in the paradigm, who is controlling your mass media and indoctrinating your kids today?
I take it that you are happy with how they have indoctrinated the kids?
Wouldn't it be better to listen for 10 minutes to live in a world absent coercive control?

Or have the Monarchs done such a good job on you that even though you claim to be an anarchist you still want to be a tool in the economic system that was designed by the very people you claim to reject?

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Typical marxist nonsense,
I haven't spent much time reading Marx, mostly just excepts, but if what was done in his name is any indication, Marxist nonsense is a mischaracterization of the proposal.
Let this on the spot report speak for it's self,.....There is no Communism in Russia.

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We would all follow your system if you could just indoctrinate us to believe that people will work hard without any personal remuneration.
Again, you misstate the proposal, under my proposal not only would you be given access to goods that are denied to you under crapitalism, but you could have them now and with only the debt of making your consumption neutral.
If it is determined that hours of labor is the standard then the hours to make a Maserati is the hours you will need to contribute to have one. 
Any question that you will never have a Maserati under crapitalism?
My system delivers you one just as quick as production can meet demand, first come first served.
If you leave the car in working order the hours needed to make your consumption neutral will be less than if you crash it.

I'm sure that the math nerds can make webpages to calculate what you need to contribute to make your consumption neutral on the labor of others.

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I don’t think in “dog eat dog” terms either and I never did.
Then why do you support a dog eat dog system?
Your 'free' markets still starve me unless I meet your demands.
You will not give to me from your pile unless I create value in excess of your compensation.
You will not sell me your widget unless you get more than you paid for it, thereby eating my dog because I don't have access to your widget for less.

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This is exactly the reason why people in the market place say “How can I help you.” Nobody would say that in your system.
Sure they say it, but do they live it?
How many panhandlers have you given a dollar?
How many have you cast contempt upon and told get a job?

In the free market all money is still going to be debt money, and debt money makes us slaves to those that have the money.

Under my system panhandlers, human traffickers, drug pushers, and prostitutes all cease to exist.
They don't have to beg or traumatize the lives of others to eat.

Your free market still leaves me to starve unless I submit to wage slavery.

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I don’t want people to submit to my rules either,
Yes, you do.  How do you propose to keep your free market in place?  Either folks submit to exploitation by those that have money to trade for their labor or they starve.
Does you system come with a free lunch?
Mine does, although I would think that the life of leaching on the workers would not be a pleasant one.

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Also I don’t demand that the entire world go to my system.
Are you blind to your double speak??
How is demanding free markets not demanding the whole world submit to your system?
Really, AG??

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If you want to try some ridiculous social experiment, than go ahead.
So, the monarchs are winning,.....

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Don’t force me to join or to pay for it.
I won't have to force you, when you take off the crapitalist blinders you will see that my system compensates your work much better.
I may just have to wait until the herd, and your herd mentality, catches up.

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The type of work you describe here is not stealing at all.
OMG,....LOL,......seriously??
I have to choose between watching my kids starve or submit to you not paying me the full value of my work and you classify that as legitimate?

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At no time does the employer take the property of the employee, so there is no theft in any of your examples
Jesus H,.....the employer takes the MOST valuable property from the worker, his time.
The system you are supporting steals our lives and gives us discounted paper vouchers in return.

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Why should someone plant potatoes and not receive the entirety of what he planted? 
Indeed, why should the worker settle for less than the entire value of his labor?

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the employer cleared the land and made it arable so that it would produce something in the first place
If he did the work himself, ok, at least he contributed that much labor.

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or he paid the 1.2 million dollars from the person that did
And how much of that 1.2 mil came from the value that his workers created and how much came from charging grandma $2 for $1 worth of potatoes?
Did he exploit the worker or gouge the consumer for this money?

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He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
Ok, I can agree to that, his labor entitles him to one share of all the work done.
Will he divide the profits by the number of workers, or will he keep the millions while paying the hundreds?

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The employer bought all of the farm equipment so that the laborer can be productive. Without these farm tools the laborer would produce 100 potatoes by hand instead of 1000. He deserves a portion of the produce because of this.
That is circular logic, you can't point to crapitalism to justify more crapitalism.

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When the employer pays a laborer $100 to produce $1000 worth of potatoes, he is taking a risk.
And what risk is that, that the worker will wake up to his enslavement and be mad??

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If there is a bad harvest and he produces only $50 worth of potatoes then the employer loses money.
Now this is true, crapitalism does come with the risk of loss.
The bankster will make sure that the farmer doesn't get to uppity.

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The labor theory of value and the marxist idea of "surplus value" are behind your misunderstanding here.
Not really, I've stated that I have only read excepts of marx, this proposal comes much more from Kropotkin and Goldman than from marx.

The facts are that we can divide the labor needed to keep the consumer goods on the shelves by the number of folks between 20 and 45 and work less hours and enjoy a higher standard of living than if we let the crapitalists take without working.
The shareholders will never have enough profits to keep for themselves, ie, the shareholders will never have enough value created by our labor.
Today we work from 18 to 65 creating millions in profits while retiring to poverty because the crapitalist keeps the difference between our wages and the actual value created by our labor.

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you have been working so many years and have been a part of this website for so long and haven’t figured this out yet.
Why would I accept my enslavement by a system that you don't fully understand?
IF you did understand it you would be angry.

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It seems that you don’t even want to pretend to understand economics.
I think it is you that doesn't understand economics.
It is you that I think is blinded by effective PR.

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People will loot the stores until there is nothing left then they will degenerate to a level of SUBSISTENCE living.
You say that as if people would be satisfied subsisting, we have already proven that the people will work to improve their lot in life.
So, once the looting you propose is over they will begin to rebuild.

If the people are prepared to transition from here to here there will be no looting, the day after will look much like the last day under crapitalism but in 6 weeks the world will be transformed.

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This means that people will produce only what they need to survive. They certainly won’t switch to your paradigm where they enjoy “the full value of their labor.”
Look around, the people have already disproven you.
Absent the mindset that crapitalism has put into you with very sophisticated mind control techniques people will continue to make the goods because it will be in their best interest to do so.
If you want flashylight boxes you will have to continue to produce widgets so that those that produce TV's can still enjoy having widgets.

Honestly, you mind has been closed to utopia by people that want to keep you on the plantation.

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Many people would rather live in a free society where they can own property.
My proposal does that, no crime will be tolerated by the neighbors.

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The only way the Bolsheviks could get people to behave otherwise was to put a gun to their head.
Well, they did believed in rule by force.
Do I need to yet again restate that my proposal is voluntary and only a matter of opening the eyes of the slaves to their slavery?

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Not even your indoctrination schools or re-education camps can change that.
Well, your's have had a 100 year head start on that, but I don't think you can deny that Generation Y is on the path to throwing off the leaches already.

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Gov is the system favored by dictators the world over.
Name a dictator that didn't have bankster backers and a crapitalist economy,....

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In your system gov would still exist, how else will you control the media?
Nope, it won't.
Control of the media will be taken by the workers that make it tick, not some thugs in uniform directed by a central authority.  Really, stop trying to force your world view on my proposal, it is you that needs thugs to keep the slaves producing.

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Unlike you, I don’t want to “control” anyone, even the media.
As long as the agree to follow your 'free' market rules, at least,....

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If you are so confident that people will work simply "to ensure that they are not parasites" then give your system a try.
That is what I am doing.  I can't do it alone and I haven't convinced my tv buddy to let me into the control room long enough to broadcast the message.  He keeps whining about keeping his job so he can eat.

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I’m not the one calling for “control” and “indoctrination.”
Of course you aren't, your control and indoctrination is already in force.






10  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:39 PM
No, I'm not for re-building our current crapitalist system at all.  I'm for rebuilding the free-market.

Ok, then are you in favor of throwing children into the street because their parents drank the rent money?

Quote from: FBA
Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.

Quote from: GA
If society went to a system where people did not have to pay to take goods from stores, then all that "doom and gloom" would absolutely take place. Its not even debatable. It happened already when the Bolsheviks abolished money after the revolution in Russia.

I'll have to read more about the history you reference, but the facts are that it is possible to transition from here to there. 
If the people riot once the food runs out they are going to starve or work at repairs. 
If properly prepared by announcements on the flashy light box, and classes to the kids on how this is going to work, the transition can be made without the end of the world.  It is only a matter of controlling the mass media and the schools long enough to show the people that continuing to produce the goods will lead to a world free from crapitalist domination.

Quote from: FBA
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.

Quote from: AG
No, the guy making widgets only cares that he receives a pay check. No worker or business owner stands around at work thinking "I just hope these goods I'm making end up stocked on store shelves somewhere." I mean come on man, do you really think this?

Because his mindset is crapitalism, a different indoctrination and he does as I propose.

Quote from: AG
This childish understanding of labor makes me think that you have never even had a job nor worked a single day of your life.
Well, then you would be wrong, I have worked since I was 14 and currently am 49.
I do it because the slaves around me are blind to their slavery and have not been presented with alternatives, in fact, they have been inoculated against them by their schools.
I don't say, 'I bought this widget for $1 and now I can sell it to this sucker for $10, screw that lady, she has it'.
My 'childish' understanding comes from freeing my mind from the evils of crapitalism, I no longer think in dog eat dog terms, I don't say to people 'either submit to my rules or starve', I say 'how can I help you', instead.
Seriously, what is your reaction to panhandlers?
Get a job, right?
Submit to the slavery, bum,...
If you'll do this $60 worth of work I will give you $20 of the value you created,...??
If you plant this field with potatoes valued at $1000 at harvest I will pay you $100 for the 3 days it will take you?
If you harvest this wheat that could feed you all year, I will feed you for the time it takes to get the work done.
Seriously, you need to look closer at the 'deal' you offer.
At the value your work creates.
If I create 100% of the value and you take 40% of the money what have you contributed for your gain?
How is that not stealing the value I created?

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The only reason they are at work is because they get paid. The moment workers are no longer compensated for their work and goods are "free," no worker will be stupid enough to work for nothing anymore.
Then where will the goods come from?  Their desire for goods is not going away, everybody wants toilet paper but they don't want to make their own. 
Will they just lay indolent until starvation takes them to heaven?
I don't think so, they submit to the slavery today because they want to eat, they will join in the new paradigm that rewards them far better, the full value of their labor rather than the crumbs left by the greedy.

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Unless of course you put a gun to his head and force him to work. That's what they ended up doing in the Soviet Union to get people to work, they had to force them.
Admittedly I don't have that much knowledge of the time, but I do have this,...There is no communism in Russia, by Emma Goldman.

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Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of lofty ideals you have about people working for free and for the common good or whatever, no worker is stupid enough to work for nothing. Wake up bro, or grow up, whatever it is you need to do.
Perhaps it is you that needs this advice, as you are the one supporting the system favored by dictators the world over.
The workers will not be working for nothing, they will be working to ensure that they are not parasites on other workers while enjoying the goods provided by others doing the same.
We don't have to have the paradigm you are perpetuating, you are no different than the banksters, you just want to be at the tip of the (smaller) pyramid that you control while not being under theirs'.

Will you let me starve in the streets because I recognize the slavery inherent in 'Get a job, bum'?

Quote from: FBA
This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.

Quote from: GA
You are correct that we don't have to have dollars and that there are alternatives to crapitalism. The only real alternative to crapitalism that will bring about freedom and prosperity is the unhampered free market, unhampered by gov coercion and violence.
What is the difference between markets dominated by world bankers' dollars and one dominated by local bankers in the form of trade goods?
How is getting paid 40 potatoes while harvesting 1000 any different than what happens in a dollar economy?
You are just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

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  In the free market dollars would disappear and people would resort to bartering.  Workers at first may work and barter their labor for any number of things: "grain, eggs, salt, silver, gold, bitcoin etc..."  However after a while they will find that its much easier to trade silver, gold and bitcoin instead of grain, eggs and salt.  At this point silver, gold and bitcoin would become the "money" of society. "Money" is just a tool to make trade easier.  And I believe that there may be multiple forms of money in a free market.  People would choose which form they like, or perhaps use all of the forms. Personally I would probably use silver for my daily expenses, I would keep my savings in gold and I would use bitcoin for online transactions.
Exactly, the option you offer is no different than the current offer.
You just want to be on top and answer to no one, exactly like the banksters today, they just have a head start on you.

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Don't worry, I'm not enslaved by the banker's matrix.
I think I just showed that you are.
Your system is their system with you in charge.
New boss same as the old boss.

Seriously, AG, the only way to end this tyranny is to devise a way to get out of markets entirely.
Until we share freely with our fellow human beings we are just changing out the bosses.
Today they are international bankers, under your proposal they would be whatever local could afford to pay today for more tomorrow. 
The poor would still be at the mercy of those that exploit their poverty to enrich themselves.

 
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Their control over the market and their scheme to expropriate
us exists because of gov controlled money, gov regulation and gov bailouts. Once the gov is gone, the corrupt banking institutions will go bankrupt and banking will be just like any other business.
And the titanic will once again be destined to hit the iceberg.

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Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html

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I agree that Kropotkin was a great man, and an interesting anarchist philosopher. I've already read the Conquest of Bread as I've told you before. Unfortunately some of his economic theories were flawed.
It's true, if he had the answers his offer would have taken the market of ideas by storm, and we would live in his paradise.

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The first step for all Anarchists, from Rothbard to followers of Kropotkin, is to abolish the state.
Right, the end of rule by force should be the current primary goal, I agree.

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At that point you can join some sort of co-operative where people work to stock the shelves of a community store
Hmm, better to think globally so that wars can end.

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Personally, I would rather work for silver or bitcoin that I can exchange for the goods I want.
Then free your mind, small scale crapitalism is crapitalism none the less.
Just because the world bankster becomes the local bankster becomes the local landowner doesn't end the exploitive nature of crapitalism.

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In a free market, anyone is free to do what they like, as long as they don't coerce others.
If I am starving and you offer me $40 for $100 worth of work and the only choice I have is to starve or do your work have I been coerced?

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  You may find a decent Co-op if it has the right kind of people in it or you could even start your own.
Nah, my proposal is global in nature anything less and it fails.
Perhaps it could be began on a smaller scale, but unless the idea sells to everybody it is not worthy.

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I wish you luck, just don't try to force me join your system or try to take my stuff that I worked for.
Nope, if I can't convince you of the preferability of my idea it is not worthy of adoption.
Even if my idea was accepted there will be no large scale expropriation of goods, the banksters will keep their castles, if they can keep their lives.

11  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Registration for new members has been disabled on: March 31, 2015, 01:45:20 PM
Ok, Seth, I'll make a account over there and see how many responses I get.
12  General Category / General Discussion / Re: Registration for new members has been disabled on: March 27, 2015, 04:08:39 PM
That is so sad, Seth, but it is realistic, the flashy light box is a bitch to compete with.
I've tried to add an avatar but it tells me that it is not writable, is there some way to add an avatar?
13  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: March 27, 2015, 03:58:39 PM
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The shelves will be completely empty by day 2 of this Utopian fantasy world.
OK, AG, now the shelves have been looted and the world is in disarray, what do we do next?

I guess we get back to work building the crapitalist utopia that our brief excursion out of led us into this disarray.

Really, AG, the doom and gloom you predict will not happen.
An orderly transition from the slavery of crapitalism can be had just as simply as continuing to work while not paying at the register.
Records will have to be made to facilitate reordering the goods taken from the shelf, but I propose that in short order everything will be ordered from the web and delivered to the door.

The structure that is a corporation fills the shelves whether the accounting department does it's job or not.

The guy making the widget doesn't care if the customer doesn't pay, he only cares that the shelves continue to be stocked so that he can continue to make widgets.  This can be accomplished in the absence of dollars.
We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
Seriously, open your mind, alternatives to crapitalism exist.
Don't let the bankster's matrix keep you enslaved, seek alternatives.
Prince Kropotkin laid it out in the 19th century.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html
14  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: why capitalism is unsustainable on: March 21, 2015, 02:26:38 PM
How did I miss all those replies?

Anyway, if we continue to do the work that fills the shelves and don't pay at the register we eliminate the money masters but still have full shelves.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

We would need a way to insure that you have produced more than you have consumed.

How that would be measured is open to debate.
15  Questions And Challenges / Challenges To Anarcho-Capitalism / Re: The end of crapitalism on: March 21, 2015, 02:19:40 PM
Nah, they are too blinded by greed.

They worship their bankster masters and have no clue that they are in the chapel.

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