Daily Anarchist Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: randallstevens on September 21, 2010, 09:11:51 PM



Title: Investing
Post by: randallstevens on September 21, 2010, 09:11:51 PM
I was wondering how everyone here is investing their savings in this political climate. Fearing government plunder, I have closed out my Roth IRA and will cash out my 401(k) when or if I leave my present job. I'm am completely out of the market simply because I fear that if I do not have my money in my possession the government will eventually steal it in some sort of forced T-bill purchase or the like. I'm "gambling" big on silver and hoping that it will move back in line with its historical ratio to gold of about 16:1. While I know this is smart because at the least I am preserving my purchasing power with a commodity, I also feel that it is a shame that I am not lending my surpluses into the market where they could be used to expand the productive capacity of the economy. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 21, 2010, 09:27:10 PM
Savings? AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Seriously though. I think you're doing it just right. Buy the real stuff and bury it until this system collapses and the dust settles, THEN invest it. I have no desire to invest in the current system. I want to go for broke on freedom and not let anybody else near my savings until the shitstorm is over. Think John Galt.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: helio on September 21, 2010, 09:30:14 PM
What you are doing mirrors my situation exactly.  I stopped 401k contributions 2 years ago, started buying silver, paying down debt, and buying up durable foods.  I put about 5% of my monthly income in silver, 10% in cash, and 10% in debt reduction and 10% in survival supplies. 


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on September 21, 2010, 11:07:15 PM
Good topic choice. I've been thinking about this. I'm still in school so I will have to pay off loans before I start saving...but everything I've learned about investing makes the tiny assumption that there won't be a hyperinflation, and eventual collapse of a welfare state that millions of people depend upon. So traditional methods don't really apply to people like us. I'm guessing you are all going with silver because it's low enough in value that it can be used for everyday transactions? I've heard gold is overrated because you can't use it for much.

I think basic survival gear has to come before silver or anything like that. You can't eat, drink, or defend yourself with a commodity metal. Guns are a huge necessity in my book (I better get cracking here, never fired one).

Then when it's time to buy metal, do so with cash, don't make it traceable. Don't use a credit card.

food, gun, ammo, metal = modern day investment vehicles


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: randallstevens on September 21, 2010, 11:37:44 PM
While I do own some gold, most of savings is in silver with a good chunk of it in small and medium denominations in case I have to spend it. I did and still do all of my buying online simply because the local coin shop type dealers mark up the bullion too much and usually do not carry enough supply in my preferred bullion. I have used both APMEX and Bullion Direct with great satisfaction (I'm not getting paid for an endorsement).

I do have plenty of firearms and ammo to defend myself, my family, and my money should the need ever arise. I don't bother keeping excess food because I simply don't have enough room.

We paid off all of our debt except for the house, but don't bother paying extra on it simply because the mortgage payment is about equal to rents for a similar home in the neighborhood. As long as the government can put a lien on the property and evict us for failing to pay property taxes, we will never really own it, so what's the point?

I don't mind the thought of investing in other commodities or commodity producing companies, but what scares me is the fact that the Feds can seize my accounts electronically and there would be nothing I could do about it, hence the cash under the mattress. I figure with bullion I won't have to worry about living without it because I won't let it be taken without a fight.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: helio on September 22, 2010, 04:39:10 AM
Silver is only part of my strategy.  I have food, a few simple self defense weapons, a rifle, shotgun, and enough ammo to hunt and defend myself against a few dangerous encounters.  Certainly I'm not a rambo with a secret closet and enough gear to start a small war. 

I buy nothing larger than 1 ounce coins, such as silve eagles, but mostly prefer junk silver like 40% kennedy halves.  My local coin shop is liquidating and he's selling them 2 bucks each, which is a dollar below melt value.  These coins are easily recognizable to people and will be a functional currency once the crack-up boom occurs. 

But, if it doesn't occur, silver is still an awesome investment in my opinion.  Its practically inflation proof as the supply is very limited.  There just isn't that much silver as there used to be because it is an industrial metal that doesn't really get recycled.  So, if our economy limps sickly along for the next 30 years or so, Silver will be there when Social Security isn't.



Title: Re: Investing
Post by: setherb on September 22, 2010, 12:02:37 PM
I agree this is a great topic.  I too have thought about closing my IRA and buying gold and silver for some time now but haven't pulled the trigger.  Like you guys I've got most of what i may need rifles, handguns, ammo, some food staples and some survival gear.  I've purchased some silver bullion but only a hand full of coins.  With the news lately about the FED and metal prices on the rise, i'm getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on the IRA.

I realize the importance of having the gold and silver in your hands but do any of you have any experience with the gold IRAs?  From what i know you can convert your IRA to gold coins but they have to be kept in deposit at a bank.  There are usually fees associated with maintaining the deposit and fees for withdrawing the coins.  Having not researched in too much depth I don't see any advantage in these gold IRAs beyond a hedge against inflation.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: randallstevens on September 22, 2010, 01:07:25 PM
I can't say that I have any experience with PMIRAs. I did a bit of research but found the storage fees to be exorbitant. I closed out my accounts because in my mind if the whole system collapses 1) the government will simply confiscate the accounts with a few keystrokes or 2)if they system collapses and they don't, I won't really be concerned with keeping my savings tax sheltered. Since my accounts were Roth IRAs, I have already paid taxes on them and will only be taxed on any capital gains incurred (not much), so I just bit the bullet and closed them out.

My only advice is that if you take physical possession (which you should in my opinion) get a good safe that is either bolted to the foundation of your house (good), or is IN the foundation of your house (better). It would really suck to have a large amount of PMs stored in a safe only to have something like a tornado literally blow it all away...


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: helio on September 22, 2010, 01:21:54 PM
If its not in your hands, you don't own it.  I don't have a lot of silver, but if the reports of 45 paper ounces to 1 physical ounce are true, that means the price will eventually adjust massively upwards.  I don't know what is true, other than the fed will inflate.  Whether the metals markets are manipulated (which i believe) or not doesn't deter my position to buy and hold over the long term.



Title: Re: Investing
Post by: setherb on September 22, 2010, 01:54:17 PM
Thanks for the input.  I'm looking through my IRA's distribution forms right now.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 22, 2010, 02:25:34 PM
I am pretty sure there are ways to do a self-directed IRA where you possess the gold. The problem is the government knows about it. But the government knows about your assets now so...



Title: Re: Investing
Post by: xphoenix on September 26, 2010, 07:00:18 PM
I've been thinking about getting some silver as well, but I'm a little concerned about storage.  I don't want to advertise that I have it, but I also want to make sure it's covered by insurance in case of theft or some other disaster.  Something tells me that if things hit the fan with the monetary system and the government comes knocking, insurance companies won't exactly keep it to themselves who has additional coverage on their homeowner's policies for things like this.  What steps have others taken in that regard?


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 26, 2010, 07:25:45 PM
Welcome to the forum. I recommend buying silver in person from a bullion dealer if you can. They require you give a name but not to show ID. So you can fake a name, and nobody knows any better if you pay cash. Then bury it. If you bury it wisely the chances of it getting stolen are slim to nil.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: randallstevens on September 27, 2010, 07:10:49 AM
I've been thinking about getting some silver as well, but I'm a little concerned about storage.  I don't want to advertise that I have it, but I also want to make sure it's covered by insurance in case of theft or some other disaster.  Something tells me that if things hit the fan with the monetary system and the government comes knocking, insurance companies won't exactly keep it to themselves who has additional coverage on their homeowner's policies for things like this.  What steps have others taken in that regard?


I'm pretty sure you will not be able to find a homeowner's policy that will insure your bullion without being prohibitively expensive. I have a regular 1 hour fireproof safe bolted to the foundation of my home that I keep my bullion in. I cover it with a cardboard box with a few items stacked on top just for camouflage. Bolting the safe to the floor with long lag bolts will ensure the safe will still be there if the house is blown away by severe weather (assuming it doesn't get knocked loose by a flying car), and will keep thieves at bay (unless they have tools and a lot of time). If you have access to a concrete saw and jackhammer then you can cut a hole in the foundation and put a drop safe into it. This would be the most secure, but believe me, digging that hole takes some time and effort.

Like you mentioned, not advertising the fact that you have bullion on your premises is the best thing you can do to protect your stash. I don't worry about not having my PMs insured by a third party because I figure in the event of a full scale monetary disaster, insurance companies will either go out of business or will lobby the turds in government for legislation protecting them from paying out claims to policy holders, much like the banks received protection from having to pay depositors in specie under the gold standard.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: setherb on September 27, 2010, 11:12:30 AM
Can someone with experience buying gold and silver post some recommendations.  I see that Seth has recommended buying silver from a dealer in person and others have recommended online dealers like APMEX and Bullion Direct.  What other resources do people recommend?  What recommendations do you guys have as to the size of the bullion, rounds or Bars, 1 oz, .5 oz, etc..? 


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: randallstevens on September 27, 2010, 12:49:15 PM
Can someone with experience buying gold and silver post some recommendations.  I see that Seth has recommended buying silver from a dealer in person and others have recommended online dealers like APMEX and Bullion Direct.  What other resources do people recommend?  What recommendations do you guys have as to the size of the bullion, rounds or Bars, 1 oz, .5 oz, etc..? 

I've purchased 1oz buffalo rounds, 10 oz and 100 oz bars. If we have a hyperinflationary panic, the 1 oz rounds will be the easiest to use for normal day to day purchases. It all depends on how you expect to use it. If you just want to put a large amount of money away and protect it from inflation, then 100 oz bars would be a good purchase. I usually get the cheapest ones I can find so I get the most for my FRNs. I use the online dealers because the premiums are lower, but the tradeoff is that you lose anonymity because there are electronic records.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: helio on September 27, 2010, 03:12:46 PM
It depends what your goals are.  My primary outlook is in a hyperinflationary event, people will be liquidating every other asset class for essentials.  I believe hard currencies will come back into vogue as they have in zimbabwe in the aftermath of that hyperinflation.  I have some of the older coins like the walking liberty half dollars that people instantly recognize as legitimate.  I have some kennedy 40% silver half dollars.  I have 1 oz silver eagles and some bullion.  I don't purchase the bars as something as large as a 100 oz bar will be difficult to 'break' and make change against in a hyper inflationary event.  The bars are primarily for long term purchasing power preservation in the event that the current monetary system survives. 

I look to use mine to buy farm equipment, fuel, fertilizer, and day labor if it all melts down.  If the currency system survives, the coins will also meet the need of purchase power preservation. 

Also, dollar cost averaging is better for hedging against the volatility that silver has. Buying 100 1 oz coins over a period of months is a safer bet than buying a 100 oz bar. 

I have purchased from Buillion Direct only once, but was happy with it.  I purchase primarily from a local vendor.  I don't want my name on a list if I can help it.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 27, 2010, 04:01:04 PM
My recommendation is to by a lot of junk silver first. If you don't have a good bullion dealer you can buy from in person, consider going onto ebay. They have very competitive prices for junk, even in small amounts. Dimes and quarters are easily available.

After junk I would buy 1 ounce silver rounds, non-eagles. Their premiums are too high. After a sufficient quantity of silver only then I would buy gold.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on September 27, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
I'm not an expert on this topic, so could someone explain the reason for going "junk." Why buy coins that are just artifacts from the "in between" days when the government was diluting our money? Why buy silver with other junk melted into it? Then we'll have to do calculations to figure out how much silver you're actually getting in the trade and what not. Is it just to avoid markup...


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 27, 2010, 05:12:33 PM
Junk silver is great because of the small denominations. Currently no private mints are pumping out anything less than one ounce, and if they do, those fractional ounces come with much higher premiums than one ounce rounds, to the point of not being cost effective.

Junk is also well known for their silver content. Each coin, such as dime, quarter, half-dollar and dollar are all 90% silver and the denominations are proportional. One dime has one-tenth the amount of silver as one dollar. Four quarters has the same content as one dollar, etc.

One dollar has exactly 0.72 ounces of silver. Therefore, one dime has 0.072 ounces of silver which means it is worth about $1.50 in today's money. This is excellent for smaller transactions because one ounce of silver is way too much and requires today's phony money for making change. With junk silver the most amount you'll ever need to make change for is $1.50.

While the coins may only be 90% silver, it does make them stronger. Ideally we would have privately minted small denomination coins that contain silver content instead of "dollars" but for now they work great and will likely be melted down and converted in the future once we end the dollar hegemony.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: xphoenix on September 27, 2010, 06:05:41 PM
Thanks for the feedback on my earlier post.  Good points about the cost of homeowner's insurance.

Seth - you mentioned that coin dealers require that you give name, but not ID.  Is that just common practice or is there some sort of regulation in place?


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Seth King on September 27, 2010, 07:32:17 PM
As far as I know it is regulation. Although, that's likely to change once we all become required to 1099 purchases over $600. Once that happens I'll be seeking out underground metals dealers.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Syock on December 16, 2011, 08:11:20 AM
There is one big problem with gold.  Governments own most of it since they confiscated it and locked up people that didn't turn it in.  Several years back Great Britain was going to dump a lot of it's gold on the market to raise some money.  The only reason they didn't was because the US gov asked them not to.  I am not sure what prompted the US to care.  Maybe they wanted the price to rise so the gov's can get more for the gold, or were afraid of a fiat currency collapse.  That is just speculation of course.  The fact remains that the US government and many other governments around the world are sitting on huge sums of gold.  They have the ability to inflate that too. 


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Syock on July 08, 2012, 10:23:28 AM
I've been thinking about getting some silver as well, but I'm a little concerned about storage.  I don't want to advertise that I have it, but I also want to make sure it's covered by insurance in case of theft or some other disaster.  Something tells me that if things hit the fan with the monetary system and the government comes knocking, insurance companies won't exactly keep it to themselves who has additional coverage on their homeowner's policies for things like this.  What steps have others taken in that regard?


I think this would be a perfect place for an agorist insurance company to form. 


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Amagi on July 08, 2012, 11:02:55 AM
I cannot tell you what your investments should be since I am not you.  I do not know your risk adversity.  I can tell you what I think is a safe bet.

You should have at least $1,000 in emergency cash.  In addition you should have 6 months - 1 year of expenses in cash.  Yes, fiat currency.  This is in case you immediately lose your job.  I also recommend paying off your debt.  Yes, inflation does reduce the value of your debt, but as a good voluntaryist you do have an obligation to pay off the debt.  By paying down your debt you are in essence increasing your savings.  Remember, it may take many years before there is a widespread financial collapse and hyperinflation, and there will be fluctuations between then.

Depending on your age, I would recommend having a ROTH IRA.  However I would not put too much into it, you can still make money in the stock market and you want to at least be safe from all angles.  It might not be a bad idea to invest in real estate and good businesses.  If you think there will be total chaos tomorrow then buy a farm?  Who knows, it may be 100 years before there is a financial collapse, if at all, that will destroy the US Dollar as we know it.  It took the Roman Empire 700 + years and it became a dictatorship long before the empire collapsed.

I recommend that you put at least 10-25% of your net worth in precious metals, preferably tangible bullion.  Remember, gold is money.

I cannot say whether you should do anything legal, or illegal because I do not want anyone to end up in jail.  I will say that when buying gold online, you can purchase up to $10,000 worth via bank wire, money order, or check, without the company reporting it to the IRS.  Obviously paying with credit card leaves a trace, but if it is under $10,000, I don't think you have much to worry about.  Most companies that sell precious metals have very strict privacy policies.

There is one big problem with gold.  Governments own most of it since they confiscated it and locked up people that didn't turn it in.  Several years back Great Britain was going to dump a lot of it's gold on the market to raise some money.  The only reason they didn't was because the US gov asked them not to.  I am not sure what prompted the US to care.  Maybe they wanted the price to rise so the gov's can get more for the gold, or were afraid of a fiat currency collapse.  That is just speculation of course.  The fact remains that the US government and many other governments around the world are sitting on huge sums of gold.  They have the ability to inflate that too.  

Actually, over 50% of the gold ever mined in human history is used in jewelry and owned by individuals.  Another 12% is used in manufacturing.  Only 17.5% of all the gold ever mined is held by government institutions.

The British government did sell off a huge chunk of their gold holdings.  It was one of the biggest investment mistakes of the century.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Syock on July 08, 2012, 12:13:26 PM

Actually, over 50% of the gold ever mined in human history is used in jewelry and owned by individuals.  Another 12% is used in manufacturing.  Only 17.5% of all the gold ever mined is held by government institutions.


That is still a massive amount for governments to hold.  Considering so much is used for jewelery and not in the market, it would still hit like a ton of bricks.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: MAM on July 08, 2012, 09:17:17 PM
I am not an  expert but I make my precious medal purchases in person at a local store that I will not finger. I use cash (I do most of my work in the Agorist market). If you are looking to invest for a profit I wouldn't buy precious metals. I buy them as a way of storing wealth. To me the price isn't that important. It is a store of wealth to me not a way of generating it. But I'm not an expert so...


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on July 09, 2012, 12:04:50 AM
I am not an  expert but I make my precious medal purchases in person at a local store that I will not finger. I use cash (I do most of my work in the Agorist market). If you are looking to invest for a profit I wouldn't buy precious metals. I buy them as a way of storing wealth. To me the price isn't that important. It is a store of wealth to me not a way of generating it. But I'm not an expert so...
As long as you aren't putting too big of a fraction of your wealth into it, I'd say you're doing it exactly right. In person, in cash, no one knows you have it, and you aren't expecting gold to hit $5,000 / oz within the year. Reasonable enough to me.


Title: Re: Investing
Post by: Hanzo on July 09, 2012, 04:09:06 PM
Honestly, I would buy thousands of rounds of ammo and a buttload of cigarettes as a hedge against hyperinflation if I could. Those are useful and small. I'm not sure most people will find gold as the preferred currency, but cigarettes and ammo have a very practical purpose, are easy to carry around, and you could trade in small amounts (gold is stuck in whatever denomination it is. There is no standardization. How much gold would be needed for a bushel of wheat?)

For now, I can't even buy precious metals, so I'll just starve to death if the country comes to that. hooray.