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Questions And Challenges => Questions About Anarcho-Capitalism => Topic started by: Script on September 14, 2011, 09:13:50 PM



Title: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on September 14, 2011, 09:13:50 PM
This thread is mainly for the Christians of the forum (of whom there seem to be a fair amount), though I welcome responses from everyone who wishes to weigh in. Just keep in mind, that though I am dedicated to having an open mind about God, religion, evolution, etc. trying to convert me to atheism by the putting down the Bible or God is not going to be constructive for me at this point.  I need to think through my faith and examine the logical arguments and available evidence.  If you have either of those I welcome the response.

To begin, I'd like to look at the concept of taxes.  On the face of it, it seems like Christianity supports government and encourages Christians to pay their taxes.  This is the mainstream evangelical Christian view (my background).  However, if you dig a little deeper things start to become not so clear cut as most people assume. 

For example, the story of Jesus and the Pharisees and the silver denarius is often quoted with the assumption that Jesus is telling people to pay their taxes ("render unto Caeser").*  However, I read a fantastic article (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html) at lewrockwell.com (I know, redundant) which took a totally different interpretation, and one which I feel to be a lot more consistent and internally peaceful. 

However, then you have Romans 13:1-6, which to me seems to be very clearly saying Christians are supposed to pay taxes.  However, this passage also seems to have inconsistencies as CLEARLY not all rulers reward the good and punish evil.  In fact, the vast majority of the time it seems like the State rewards evil, not good.

I have more to say on this subject, but am out of time.  I look forward to your responses.

*For reference: Matthew 22:15-22


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: helio on September 14, 2011, 11:16:45 PM
This is a very important area that needs an in depth analysis and examination.  What I want to recommend is that someone, perhaps you Script, as it is a topic that is dear to your heart, should set out to write an authoritative work addressing the question.

I'm not suggesting you should begin with the conclusion as answered in the affirmative, but really leave the question open and rigorously study the Bible's passages that seem to touch on the subject and attempt to synthesize them into a formulative answer.

Of course, if some other work such as that exists, someone should point it out.

Also, that single question alone could be the basis for its own website.

Furthermore, a better way to ask the question would be "Is Obedience to Government Incompatible with The Teachings of Christ?"

I can almost guarantee that the draft would be reinstated if the vast majority of Christians stopped teaching their sons and daughters to serve the state. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: bastiat on September 17, 2011, 07:30:47 PM
The way I looked at Romans 13 before I was an An-Cap was that governments should be obeyed but only governments. Not all states are governments. The way of determining this is the standards laid out in Romans 13 itself.  "For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong." Any state that violates this as a matter of policy ceases to be a government and thus Christians have no obligation to it. But what drove me to libertarianism is just how limited the legitimate powers of government are. "To punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right." This limits government to a night watchman level and giving guidelines to moral behavior plus possibly the subsiding of public goods. Now even Ron Paul would have difficulty residing within these limits which is why I am an An-Cap. But in a hypothetical minarchist world I would obey the government totally.   But this is highly unstable which is why I am an An-Cap.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 20, 2011, 02:35:27 PM
The "render unto Caesar" passage is talking about something so much larger. Anyone who reads that story and thinks that Jesus' point was a command that Christians pay taxes is missing the bigger picture. Jesus' answer is really asking a question to the pharisees, "whose image do you bare?" I believe that I also heard that a denarious has a blasphemous inscription on it calling Caesar the "most high-god."

Romans 13 has troubled me a lot, I've heard various explanations and theories about mistranslations, but non of them have explained it accurately enough for me.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: rahvin on September 20, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
I've had a theory about Romans 13.  It could be referring to governmental structure that was found in the Israelite society, enacted during their move from Egypt to Israel.  It's found in Exodus 18, the structure there was purely dispute resolution. 

Exodus 18:21 reads  "But select capable men from all the people - men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain - and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can handle themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you. If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied."

Originally Moses was handling all disputes among the people which was too much for one person to handle so this organization was created to solve that problem.  Although it isn't explicitly mentioned, I imagine these judges were compensated in some way for their work. 



A second thought I've had refers to Romans 13:1, "for there is no authority except that which God has established."  I am certain that God did not establish statist political structures. 

He did establish the church; however, I believe that organized religion has deviated from its founding principles and does not currently serve as an example. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: rahvin on September 20, 2011, 09:54:15 PM

Furthermore, a better way to ask the question would be "Is Obedience to Government Incompatible with The Teachings of Christ?"



Nice turn of phrase, I am going to win so many arguments with this now. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 21, 2011, 08:50:24 AM
I too have had the idea floating in my head that the times in Exodus there wasn't really a state (as we know it.) God ruled very directly at that time, which is a legit rule - unlike man involuntarily enslaving man to his own ideals on life.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on September 22, 2011, 03:58:33 AM
I too have had the idea floating in my head that the times in Exodus there wasn't really a state (as we know it.) God ruled very directly at that time, which is a legit rule - unlike man involuntarily enslaving man to his own ideals on life.

Anarcho-theocracy--"no law but liberty, no king but Christ", as someone on another forum put it. On a side note, I used the term "anarcho-theocracy" at an economic discussion group on campus once. It scared the bujeebus out of some of the people there. Anarchy + Theocracy is probably the most terrifying combination for Progressives. Ha ha.


As far as Romans 13 referring to the government of Exodus times, I don't think that's correct. If I'm not mistaken Romans was written by Paul to the Church in Rome, so he was clearly referring to the Roman State which was more similar to what we now know as the State than the type of government
that ancient Israel had. 

Reading the responses above, I'm realizing there really are several ways to interpret this scripture, but none of them really satisfy me at this point. I think what Helio suggested is good, but may take me a long time to accomplish. A lifetime, perhaps. I'd like to thoroughly analyze Romans 13 in it's historical context looking at the original language and word meanings. To me there are just so many logical problems with taxes being anything other than theft and slavery. 

Even if one were to argue that because God is sovereign He gets to decide what is theft and what is not, and He's decided that humans should pay taxes to the government, the question arises: how much? Either God has to specify how much in the Bible, which I haven't seen, or it is up to the
Governments. If it is up to the governments, that is slavery, because the arbitrary ability to set tax
rates at whatever level implies ownership of the fruits of labor of the taxee. I cannot see how it can
be any other way.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 22, 2011, 07:49:52 AM
Weren't Paul's letters subject to Roman monitored? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Paul was always in danger from the government arresting/killing him for trying to start an insurrection (of course he wasn't, though.)

[EDIT: "monitoring" to "monitored." Blame the state.]


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: bastiat on September 22, 2011, 04:10:41 PM
Looking through the theology of revolution might be fruitful, as the logic to get rid of one ruler should apply to all rulers given An-Cap insights.  I do not have any theology textbooks that address revolution but if anyone does that would be useful.
Also, 1 Samuel 8 a critiques what we would consider a fairly small government as way too large; the good Judges era seems rather anarchist to me.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 23, 2011, 09:27:11 AM
It seams to me that what happened in the old testament when they wanted a king is they traded God for the state. Instead of trusting in God's providence and protection, they wanted a King like the other nations around them.

In that sense you could say that the origin of the state (in Israel anyway) was a rejection of God and his promises to the children of Israel.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 23, 2011, 10:08:22 AM
Ah! I just thought of something. In the new testament it talks about slaves obeying and honoring your masters, yet very few Christians today would say slavery is moral. When it talks about slaves obeying and honoring their masters, it seams like it's not really endorsing slavery, but commanding obedience for the sake of the Gospel. Anyone see the point that I'm trying (not doing a great job) to make?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: bastiat on September 23, 2011, 04:59:19 PM
Linux you seem to on to something; the part of the NT you are referring to is first Peter 2 literally right after he talks about obeying government.
 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2&version=NIV



Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 23, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
Hmm, I think I'll use that argument next time a Christian says that the Bible endorses the state.

I wish some intellectual giant (Jeffrey Tucker anyone?) who is both a Christian and an anarchist would do a paper or book resolving the two.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on September 24, 2011, 05:15:04 PM
I've also thought about the fact that Paul may have been writing to the Romans in order to appease the powers that be.  By encouraging them to pay taxes he was ensuring that the Roman government didn't view the new religion as a threat.  However, if the Bible is completely true it has to be consistent and so there shouldn't be any paradoxes between different parts.  This is all good food for thought though.  Specifically Linux's point about Christians having problems with slavery though it is apparently "condoned" in the Bible.  Polygamy is another one.

Out of curiosity, are you bastiat, the same person as FredericBastiat from the bitcoin forums?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Linux on September 24, 2011, 05:35:43 PM
Polygamy however is was outlawed later in the old testament, though David and Solomon did violate this. David's violation however may not have really been a violation as he had to marry Bathsheeba (pun.)

I agree entirely with Script about questioning the truth of Romans 13, it is a dangerous path to go on. There cannot be any lies in the Bible, even if it were for the purpose of insuring that the Roman government wouldn't persecute the church.

Romans 13 has been the passage that I have struggled with non-stop. I know beyond a doubt that the state is immoral, and in a sense, anti-Biblical. Yet Romans 13 it would seam is saying that God condones the state, which I cannot reconcile with the belief that the state is immoral.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: bastiat on September 24, 2011, 09:13:02 PM
no this is my first account on these kind of sites
I am actual a new convert to An-Cap but that should be covered in the other area


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Tim on September 30, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
Hi I am new to the site. I consider myself an anarcho-capitalist and a Christian. A great resource for anarchist Christians is Jacques Ellul. He wrote a book called Anarchy and Christianity. I don't know if anyone mentions it already. Other great people such as Tolstoi or Ghandi have very similar ideas as well.

I myself take anything Paul said with a grain of salt. I think he was really off base with a lot of things. I do not necessarily think that the Bible was "divinely inspired”. It is a compilation of books written by people about God. Even if it was originally written by God a lot of the original meaning was most likely lost in translation. In addition, some of the books were written in very different times. In reading the Bible from cover to cover, you get the overall concept that the New Testament “fixes” the misunderstandings in the Old Testament. That being said not a lot changes on the subject of taxes or anarchism.

Ellul interprets "render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's" as everything bearing Caeser's mark should be given back to him when he asks for it. It is not about taxes at all, but ownership. It is a very carefully worded verse in the New Testament. Jesus never says that taxes are right or wrong.

One thing that should be noted is that the Bible cannot be taken one verse at a time. It is important to cross reference to other times when Jesus is talking about money. He also says that “it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. So do these ideas mean that you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven because you are a capitalist who makes money hand over fist and buys unnecessary luxuries with it? No. You can simply give your money away as Christ instructs his disciples to do.
As a college student I have talked with Christians who are wondering what they should do after college and how they should handle their jobs that will inherently allow them to make a lot of money. They seemed distressed reading the parable of the camel passing through the eye of the needle. They never thought about making the money that would support a life of luxury but not accepting that life. Capitalism can, in my opinion, aid in charity.

Capitalism and the stereotype of the rich guys with top-hats and mustaches need to be torn apart. I think that it is very important to keep ideas separate from one another and not get them contaminated by biases from current situations or past implementations. It seems to be the case even with people in higher education.

In my readings, both the New Testament and the Old Testament seem to agree with anarchist ideas; maybe even the Old Testament more so than the New Testament. As some other people were saying, Judges is a great book to read to get an idea of the ideas of government at the time. There is the awesome repeating verse that says, “In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25). At the beginning of Judges there is the Parable of the Trees. In it the trees look for a ruler for themselves, but no tree wants to rule. They end up with a bramble who threatens to burn the “Cedars of Lebanon” (Judges 9:15). This is of course a metaphor to the Israelites wanting a king to rule over themselves. Abimelech, the bramble, becomes king and ends up getting killed in war. Maybe this story is an illusion to pacifist-anarchism as well? That being said it is impossible for a Christian anarchist to not be a pacifist as well. The Sermon on the Mount is a great reference for this.

Anyways, I thought that I would try to contribute to the conversation. I am somewhat new to anarchism and simply want to learn from people who know what they are talking about. I am probably off on a lot of things or repeated stuff other people already said.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Seth King on September 30, 2011, 10:10:17 PM
Welcome to the forum, Tim! It's interesting to see so many Christian anarchists here. I think there may be more Christian anarchists here than atheist anarchists. On a side note, if there is anybody who self-identifies as Christian-anarchist and would like to submit content to the front page you are encouraged to do so. I cannot guarantee I will publish it, but if I consider it high quality I most definitely will. If I do not publish it, try not to be offended. About 75% of submitted articles do not get published, however, many authors that I have published have had other articles rejected. So, one rejection does not mean I will always reject. Try again.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Dubhán on October 09, 2011, 03:03:33 PM
I'm not a Christian, just someone who acknowledges that God exists. Religion and politics are, IMHO, opiates of the masses. Anyways, here's something maybe relevant to the conversation:

"Render Unto Caesar: A Most Misunderstood New Testament Passage"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on October 10, 2011, 06:42:19 AM
I'm not a Christian, just someone who acknowledges that God exists. Religion and politics are, IMHO, opiates of the masses. Anyways, here's something maybe relevant to the conversation:

"Render Unto Caesar: A Most Misunderstood New Testament Passage"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html

Yeah, that is a great article.  I linked to it in my OP.  Also, in regards to the discussion on Romans 13 here are a couple links I've been looking at that take a look at it from the anarchist perspective: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm  and http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesis/Anarcho-Theocracy.htm.  This last link has an incredible amount of research and information on it.  I'm still sorting through it all. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Dubhán on October 10, 2011, 05:09:06 PM
In my forty-seven year journey of life I've come to the conclusion that God exists. He communes with me by evidence of his fingerprints on the natural world around me and beyond in the stars. I don't "believe" God exists. I know he exists. I adhere to no man made religion which seeks to impose it's control on my behavior (no matter how well intended). With regard to the state, I do all I can to stay off their radar and live my life as simply as possible with the realization that this life is short and temporal. My philosophy reflects my simple mindedness. It works for me.  :)


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Seth King on October 10, 2011, 06:30:48 PM
In my forty-seven year journey of life I've come to the conclusion that God exists. He communes with me by evidence of his fingerprints on the natural world around me and beyond in the stars. I don't "believe" God exists. I know he exists. I adhere to no man made religion which seeks to impose it's control on my behavior (no matter how well intended). With regard to the state, I do all I can to stay off their radar and live my life as simply as possible with the realization that this life is short and temporal. My philosophy reflects my simple mindedness. It works for me.  :)

Well said.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Dubhán on October 11, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
Last night I got to thinking about the "state" and how it relates to us as individuals. I've pointed out that I know God exists. I've concluded that since I own myself, no man can rule me unless I decide to be ruled. The state, no matter how small and how well intentioned it may be, violates self ownership by it's mere existence. The state is contrary to the Natural Law of self ownership. It's a given then that AnCap is not only compatible with Christianity, it is necessary in order to stay in accord with the Creator. I can't see any way that Natural Law allows for the existence of the state. (caveat: the threat is that religion may morph into a theocracy)

The only aspect of anarchism that is bothersome to me is it's name. Although we understand it means "without ruler", the rest of the world views it at the extreme with violence and chaos. As most people are easily influenced because of their lack of understanding (ignorance) of anarchism, they thus take a negative view of it. I've told some of my friends that I'm a "ContraStatist" which simply conveys that I'm against statism. It may not be the best term for substitution of "anarchism" but it doesn't usually cause a wide eyed distaste when spoken and I can go on and explain my thoughts without them being prejudiced.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: LegesNullae on October 12, 2011, 04:45:42 PM
 
The only aspect of anarchism that is bothersome to me is it's name. Although we understand it means "without ruler", the rest of the world views it at the extreme with violence and chaos. As most people are easily influenced because of their lack of understanding (ignorance) of anarchism, they thus take a negative view of it. I've told some of my friends that I'm a "ContraStatist" which simply conveys that I'm against statism. It may not be the best term for substitution of "anarchism" but it doesn't usually cause a wide eyed distaste when spoken and I can go on and explain my thoughts without them being prejudiced.

The term "Voluntaryist" can also work as a good initial substitute, and it's already fairly well known among An-Caps.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on October 12, 2011, 10:34:51 PM
Quote
The term "Voluntaryist" can also work as a good initial substitute
Excellent. Another idea is to not label yourself at the initial stages.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Dubhán on October 13, 2011, 02:13:13 PM
I'm thinking I'll just start using Dubhánist.  ;D


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 14, 2012, 08:56:37 PM
Is seems fairly clear to me that any religious institution is just like a government in that it wants people to submit to its will. Further more Jesus himself said that "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get into heaven." Jesus also told the rich man to sell all of his possession and give them to the poor, and to be selfless etc...

In other words to my mind Jesus was a clear cut Socialist/Communist, and the ethics of Christianity are clearly in line with Statism and Socialism not Anarchy and Capitalism.

The extent to which someone is a capitalist is the extent to which they are ignoring their Christianity. To be both is to be inconsistent and to be committing a double think fallacy. People certainly do it, all the time.

I'm not the most articulate individual but I hope what I said here makes sense.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Seth King on April 14, 2012, 09:50:24 PM
Is seems fairly clear to me that any religious institution is just like a government in that it wants people to submit to its will. Further more Jesus himself said that "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get into heaven." Jesus also told the rich man to sell all of his possession and give them to the poor, and to be selfless etc...

In other words to my mind Jesus was a clear cut Socialist/Communist, and the ethics of Christianity are clearly in line with Statism and Socialism not Anarchy and Capitalism.

The extent to which someone is a capitalist is the extent to which they are ignoring their Christianity. To be both is to be inconsistent and to be committing a double think fallacy. People certainly do it, all the time.

I'm not the most articulate individual but I hope what I said here makes sense.

It makes sense, although your quote can be interpreted many different ways. You see it as evidence of Jesus being a socialist. I don't. I see it as him saying that the only way rich people get rich is through corruption. It's sort of the way I see things today. In order to be rich today you have to play the game right, which involved corruption. How many of those rich people today would give up all of their riches in order to fight the state? Not many.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 14, 2012, 10:28:22 PM

[/quote]

It makes sense, although your quote can be interpreted many different ways. You see it as evidence of Jesus being a socialist. I don't. I see it as him saying that the only way rich people get rich is through corruption. It's sort of the way I see things today. In order to be rich today you have to play the game right, which involved corruption. How many of those rich people today would give up all of their riches in order to fight the state? Not many.
[/quote]

I base the idea that Jesus is a socialist and Christianity compatible with statism and socialism on many more passages than the one I used above. Talking about all the reason would take a long time, as I used to think about religion a lot more years ago. To me the compatiblity of christainity with anarcho capitalism is only academic as I am not a christian and do not need to recouncil these two belief systems.

Ultimately though Christian ethics are about trying to be perfectly selfless. Jesus was supposed to have been the epitome of the selfless man, as his "sacrifice" was to give men the chance to be forgiven.

I think it is also clear that Capitalism is based upon men being selfish in nature. As the actions of people in a capitalist system are done inorder to improve their lot in life. Selfishness and Selflessness are opposites.

That is why I view Christianity and Capitalism to be incompatible.

At the same time the old testament is in arguably a statist piece of literature as the theme is do as God says or he kills you. If you say that Jesus made it to where Christians no longer need to follow the old testament I point you to Mathew 5:17 "Jesus said to his disciples: ‘Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them".

That seems clear enough to me.

If you are interested me giving a more in depth look at passages that make me believe Jesus was a socialist let me know and I will. The reason I do not right now is that it will take some time as I have not looked at a bible in a number of years.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 14, 2012, 10:44:39 PM
I base the idea that Jesus is a socialist and Christianity compatible with statism and socialism on many more passages than the one I used above. Talking about all the reason would take a long time, as I used to think about religion a lot more years ago. To me the compatiblity of christainity with anarcho capitalism is only academic as I am not a christian and do not need to recouncil these two belief systems.

Ultimately though Christian ethics are about trying to be perfectly selfless. Jesus was supposed to have been the epitome of the selfless man, as his "sacrifice" was to give men the chance to be forgiven.

I think it is also clear that Capitalism is based upon men being selfish in nature. As the actions of people in a capitalist system are done inorder to improve their lot in life. Selfishness and Selflessness are opposites.

That is why I view Christianity and Capitalism to be incompatible.

By this do you mean then that this sort of socialism (giving to the poor, being selfless, and generally not being an asshole...) is incompatible with anarchism? Or just capitalism? If just capitalism than why is this a problem?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 12:58:54 AM
I base the idea that Jesus is a socialist and Christianity compatible with statism and socialism on many more passages than the one I used above. Talking about all the reason would take a long time, as I used to think about religion a lot more years ago. To me the compatiblity of christainity with anarcho capitalism is only academic as I am not a christian and do not need to recouncil these two belief systems.

Ultimately though Christian ethics are about trying to be perfectly selfless. Jesus was supposed to have been the epitome of the selfless man, as his "sacrifice" was to give men the chance to be forgiven.

I think it is also clear that Capitalism is based upon men being selfish in nature. As the actions of people in a capitalist system are done inorder to improve their lot in life. Selfishness and Selflessness are opposites.

That is why I view Christianity and Capitalism to be incompatible.

By this do you mean then that this sort of socialism (giving to the poor, being selfless, and generally not being an asshole...) is incompatible with anarchism? Or just capitalism? If just capitalism than why is this a problem?

The reasons I give above are only for why Christianity is incompatible with Capitalism, later on in the post I explain why Christianity is incompatible with anarchy.

My problem is not with giving to the poor, I have no issue with that, here is my problem. Under the Christian system of ethics a believer is OBLIGATED to do so, and the only good action is one that is done for others. The Religion FORCES selflessness on its followers, and selflessness is the opposite of selfishness which is the basis for Capitalism.

One cannot be a good Christian and a Capitalist at the same time. Jesus directly states in the gospels that property is bad! The scene with the moneylenders suggests at the very least that money and business is unwholesome to God.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 01:16:22 AM
I too have had the idea floating in my head that the times in Exodus there wasn't really a state (as we know it.) God ruled very directly at that time, which is a legit rule - unlike man involuntarily enslaving man to his own ideals on life.

If God exists, why is his rule any different than that of a man? If your answer is "Because he is God" that is a statement without logical backing. God in the old testament is a Master of the Jews, they obeyed him or died. (Sodom and Gamorah, The Golden Calf, Naoh's Flood)

So is this legitimate or is God just as evil as men?

The point is the God of the Bible is a Dictator in every sense and thus the question "Is Christainity compatible with Anarcho-Capitalism" is answered in the negative. Because the religion itself Worships a King, how can they do this while at the same time want to abolish government?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on April 15, 2012, 04:44:08 AM
@MAM while "Because he is God" may not be enough of a statement for you consider this: God is considered to be Omnipotent and Omniscient, and truly perfect, whereas humanity is not all knowing, or all powerful, and most definitely NOT perfect.....so many Christian anarchist such as myself see a difference, we wish to abolish worldly governments because of the fact, that they are run by human beings, people who are imperfect, and must definitely not omniscient or omnipotent.


As for the Bible and Christianity forcing it's followers to give to charity...where does it FORCE them....from my understanding and reading of the Bible, Christians are merely told they SHOULD give to charity. And while you may say that Christians are obligated to give to charity, consider this....let's say God is real, which I as a Christian believe, and you as an Atheist (I'm assuming your an atheist) do not. But let's ignore that and for purely demonstrative purposes say the God described in the Bible IS real....thus God is Omniscient and Omnipotent....but for this example we're going to focus on the Omniscient, id est all knowing, aspect. He is going to know if a Christian is giving to charity because they truly want to, and wish to help those they believe to be in need, then that counts as charity....if however they are only doing it out of a sense of obligation, or for fear of what God might do if they don't...then it doesn't count. That's why I truly believe that only those who "walk the walk" will go  to heaven, regardless of whether or not they "talk the talk" or to put it another way, you could have a die-hard evangelical Christian, like Rick Santorum, or the Pope, et cetera, and if they don't actually behave in a Christian manner, i.e. giving to charity freely, obeying the 10 commandments, and the "New Commandment" ("A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" John 13:34-35), along with a bunch of other things, all that rhetoric isn't going to do anything for them. However if you have say an atheist, a Muslim, or a Buddhist, etc. who acts in a manner befitting of a Christian, minus actually believing in God period, for the atheist and possibly the Buddhist, or believing that Jesus is the Son of God in the case of the Muslims, would still go to Heaven.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: bastiat on April 15, 2012, 09:41:58 AM
While most non radical libertarians would find this argument unconvincing,  I would point out God homesteaded the Universe and Heaven and thus is justified in doing pretty much anything provided he does not prevent them from leaving, which he does not.
Secondly, Scripture supports private property and while one may argue it veers mutualistic, it must be at least prop market given that. Additionally, the fact that when Jesus made the Camel statement the next response was who then can be saved followed by With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible suggests this is general comment on salvation not on riches.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 12:43:53 PM
@MAM while "Because he is God" may not be enough of a statement for you consider this: God is considered to be Omnipotent and Omniscient, and truly perfect, whereas humanity is not all knowing, or all powerful, and most definitely NOT perfect.....so many Christian anarchist such as myself see a difference, we wish to abolish worldly governments because of the fact, that they are run by human beings, people who are imperfect, and must definitely not omniscient or omnipotent.


As for the Bible and Christianity forcing it's followers to give to charity...where does it FORCE them....from my understanding and reading of the Bible, Christians are merely told they SHOULD give to charity. And while you may say that Christians are obligated to give to charity, consider this....let's say God is real, which I as a Christian believe, and you as an Atheist (I'm assuming your an atheist) do not. But let's ignore that and for purely demonstrative purposes say the God described in the Bible IS real....thus God is Omniscient and Omnipotent....but for this example we're going to focus on the Omniscient, id est all knowing, aspect. He is going to know if a Christian is giving to charity because they truly want to, and wish to help those they believe to be in need, then that counts as charity....if however they are only doing it out of a sense of obligation, or for fear of what God might do if they don't...then it doesn't count. That's why I truly believe that only those who "walk the walk" will go  to heaven, regardless of whether or not they "talk the talk" or to put it another way, you could have a die-hard evangelical Christian, like Rick Santorum, or the Pope, et cetera, and if they don't actually behave in a Christian manner, i.e. giving to charity freely, obeying the 10 commandments, and the "New Commandment" ("A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" John 13:34-35), along with a bunch of other things, all that rhetoric isn't going to do anything for them. However if you have say an atheist, a Muslim, or a Buddhist, etc. who acts in a manner befitting of a Christian, minus actually believing in God period, for the atheist and possibly the Buddhist, or believing that Jesus is the Son of God in the case of the Muslims, would still go to Heaven.

To be honest I am not interested in arguing over whether or not God exists. In order for an argument or a discussion and what not to have a chance of success there needs to be a common ground. Belief in a god is a fundamental metaphysical choice.

The fact that it is fundamental is why Christians use the bible to try and prove the bible and vice versa. All arguments that one makes have their beginings in these fundamental assumptions, and our fundamental metaphysical assumptions are completely different.

And for the record I don't like being called an atheist because it tells someone what I don't believe and has nothing to say about what I actually believe. Karl Marx and Ayn Rand were both atheists putting the nail in the proverbial coffin that atheism is somehow a belief system.

In any case, it seems to me that the arguments that have been stated against mine are of the God is God and his behavior is righteous even if it is the same behavior that would have been considered evil if a man had done it.

In short over the years youtube has been the site of many debates over religion and to my mind both sides have said all there is to be said on the subject.

Anyway I appreciate your thoughts, your argument is pretty cogent, though I do remember Jesus saying "Sell all your possession and give them away and follow me" at one point in the Gospels. So I am not convinced that he isn't forcing Alturism on people.

Another point to consider is this; if a bank robber say to the teller "here is your choice, empty your register into my bag, or get shot." is that really a choice? In the same sense one is offered the choice to accept God, and if they don't they spend eternity in Hell. To my mind there is nothing voluntary in Christianity though a great effort has been made to convince people that there is.



Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 12:45:57 PM
While most non radical libertarians would find this argument unconvincing,  I would point out God homesteaded the Universe and Heaven and thus is justified in doing pretty much anything provided he does not prevent them from leaving, which he does not.
Secondly, Scripture supports private property and while one may argue it veers mutualistic, it must be at least prop market given that. Additionally, the fact that when Jesus made the Camel statement the next response was who then can be saved followed by With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible suggests this is general comment on salvation not on riches.


The camel comment seems to indicate that riches make it harder to attain salvation.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 15, 2012, 01:46:12 PM
Quote
My problem is not with giving to the poor, I have no issue with that, here is my problem. Under the Christian system of ethics a believer is OBLIGATED to do so, and the only good action is one that is done for others. The Religion FORCES selflessness on its followers, and selflessness is the opposite of selfishness which is the basis for Capitalism.

So are you also against wage labor, or the rules of basketball, or the authority of a third party arbitrator? By choosing to be a part of any one of these activities a person gives up a bit of there personal freedom. I actually disagree that Jesus is forcing his followers to be selfless, but even assuming he does I still don't see how that is a problem.

You argue below that the heaven/hell dichotomy makes it so that one doesn't really have a choice in the matter. But you (I assume) do not really believe that this dichotomy exists. It kind of reminds me of Bakunin's comment that, "...if God exists he would have to be abolished."


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 02:21:26 PM
I'm against any authority that I don't voluntarily recognize. If it an authority that forces itself on me I am against it. For example I'm not against the authority of the moderators on this site because I volunteered to be subject to it while using this site.

And to my mind if God exists then he is EVIL and must be opposed.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 15, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
I'm against any authority that I don't voluntarily recognize. If it an authority that forces itself on me I am against it. For example I'm not against the authority of the moderators on this site because I volunteered to be subject to it while using this site.

And to my mind if God exists then he is EVIL and must be opposed.

So the crux of your argument is that Christianity isn't voluntary. Which frankly is ridiculous. It is only possible to construe Christianity as involuntary if you accept that it's supernatural suppositions are true, if not then there is nothing involuntary about it.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 15, 2012, 04:42:29 PM
I'm against any authority that I don't voluntarily recognize. If it an authority that forces itself on me I am against it. For example I'm not against the authority of the moderators on this site because I volunteered to be subject to it while using this site.

And to my mind if God exists then he is EVIL and must be opposed.

So the crux of your argument is that Christianity isn't voluntary. Which frankly is ridiculous. It is only possible to construe Christianity as involuntary if you accept that it's supernatural suppositions are true, if not then there is nothing involuntary about it.

The question that I am arguing about is "Is Christianity compatible with Anarcho-Capitalism" I'm not arguing about whether or not Christianity is valid. If you are a Christian then obviously you accept the supernatural suppositions of Christianity, and those suppositions are not compatible with anarcho capitalism!

You are forgetting the original question!


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on April 16, 2012, 07:12:27 AM
Quote
The scene with the moneylenders suggests at the very least that money and business is unwholesome to God.
The moneylenders weren't the problem, it was the location of their business that was the problem.  IIRC it was also money changing, not lending.  They were doing their business on the temple lot, which was not a place for such business.

Quote
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get into heaven." Jesus also told the rich man to sell all of his possession and give them to the poor, and to be selfless etc...
The second part is incomplete--the Bible points out that part of the problem wasn't the possessions, but his attitude towards them: he didn't want to do it because he was selfish and wanted to keep it all and keep the high life.

Mormons believe in a pre-existance, which throws a whole 'nother wrench in the works.  We are literal spiritual children of God.  How does that change God's role?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 16, 2012, 09:44:01 AM
Quote
The scene with the moneylenders suggests at the very least that money and business is unwholesome to God.
The moneylenders weren't the problem, it was the location of their business that was the problem.  IIRC it was also money changing, not lending.  They were doing their business on the temple lot, which was not a place for such business.

Quote
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get into heaven." Jesus also told the rich man to sell all of his possession and give them to the poor, and to be selfless etc...
The second part is incomplete--the Bible points out that part of the problem wasn't the possessions, but his attitude towards them: he didn't want to do it because he was selfish and wanted to keep it all and keep the high life.

Mormons believe in a pre-existance, which throws a whole 'nother wrench in the works.  We are literal spiritual children of God.  How does that change God's role?

I'm not sure your points change anything. And certainly your second point only reinforces mine. As or how does being the children of god change anything. It doesn't a slave is a slave even if his master is his father.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on April 16, 2012, 06:27:02 PM
For the most part I'm going to steer clear of this conversation again, but I have to comment on this:
Quote
Omnipotent and Omniscient
This has been thoroughly debunked. I won't comment on the existence of God, but the properties you have ascribed here cannot go hand in hand with anyone. It's necessarily a logical contradiction. See Human Action for more details.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 17, 2012, 03:29:58 AM
I think that anarcho-capitalism is apathetic to religious concerns except where they encourage compulsory incorporation for the uninitiated. In that capacity, I think AnCap is quite hostile. While I am, myself, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I feel that religious concerns can only be absolutely reconciled with AnCap by identifying the philosophy as a purely pragmatic and nonreligious philosophy. Incorporating Christian ideals into the philosophy changes it, somewhat, in a manner that excludes the protestant interpretation of the gospels as they tend to be bibliolatrous statists who forget the primacy of christ before the hobbesian State. From my own consideration on the subject, consideration that nearly cost me my faith, I find that only the Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican faiths, and a very few individual protestants properly elevate Christ and the Church, the family, tradition, and propriety above the state.

Consider this thread in which I mock the text proofing bible thumpers who twist the gospels to there whims. http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=152426&hilit=jesus


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 17, 2012, 09:35:50 AM
I think that anarcho-capitalism is apathetic to religious concerns except where they encourage compulsory incorporation for the uninitiated. In that capacity, I think AnCap is quite hostile. While I am, myself, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I feel that religious concerns can only be absolutely reconciled with AnCap by identifying the philosophy as a purely pragmatic and nonreligious philosophy. Incorporating Christian ideals into the philosophy changes it, somewhat, in a manner that excludes the protestant interpretation of the gospels as they tend to be bibliolatrous statists who forget the primacy of christ before the hobbesian State. From my own consideration on the subject, consideration that nearly cost me my faith, I find that only the Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican faiths, and a very few individual protestants properly elevate Christ and the Church, the family, tradition, and propriety above the state.

Consider this thread in which I mock the text proofing bible thumpers who twist the gospels to there whims. http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=152426&hilit=jesus

I find that most Christians cherry pick, and cut paste their religion. They'll never admit to it, but hey do. So long as the right parts are cherry picked....


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on April 18, 2012, 06:12:31 PM
I think you got it right, Distruzio.  If you assume any religious belief, any anarchist philosophy must take a purely secular role.  Rejecting state authority is compatible with almost all religions, but the call of a higher power is very different.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 18, 2012, 06:20:58 PM
I think that anarcho-capitalism is apathetic to religious concerns except where they encourage compulsory incorporation for the uninitiated. In that capacity, I think AnCap is quite hostile. While I am, myself, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I feel that religious concerns can only be absolutely reconciled with AnCap by identifying the philosophy as a purely pragmatic and nonreligious philosophy. Incorporating Christian ideals into the philosophy changes it, somewhat, in a manner that excludes the protestant interpretation of the gospels as they tend to be bibliolatrous statists who forget the primacy of christ before the hobbesian State. From my own consideration on the subject, consideration that nearly cost me my faith, I find that only the Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican faiths, and a very few individual protestants properly elevate Christ and the Church, the family, tradition, and propriety above the state.

Consider this thread in which I mock the text proofing bible thumpers who twist the gospels to there whims. http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=152426&hilit=jesus

I find that most Christians cherry pick, and cut paste their religion. They'll never admit to it, but hey do. So long as the right parts are cherry picked....

I'd be careful of labeling "most" Christians in such a way. Especially since most ChristiNs are the catholics, the orthodox, and the liturgical protestant faiths I mentioned and they take an almost universal view subjecting the bible to the will of the Church. This fact eliminates the problem of cherry picking from the texts. Only the bibliolatrous individual is guilty of what you describe - and they're nucking futs.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 18, 2012, 06:28:44 PM
I think that anarcho-capitalism is apathetic to religious concerns except where they encourage compulsory incorporation for the uninitiated. In that capacity, I think AnCap is quite hostile. While I am, myself, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I feel that religious concerns can only be absolutely reconciled with AnCap by identifying the philosophy as a purely pragmatic and nonreligious philosophy. Incorporating Christian ideals into the philosophy changes it, somewhat, in a manner that excludes the protestant interpretation of the gospels as they tend to be bibliolatrous statists who forget the primacy of christ before the hobbesian State. From my own consideration on the subject, consideration that nearly cost me my faith, I find that only the Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican faiths, and a very few individual protestants properly elevate Christ and the Church, the family, tradition, and propriety above the state.

Consider this thread in which I mock the text proofing bible thumpers who twist the gospels to there whims. http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=152426&hilit=jesus

I find that most Christians cherry pick, and cut paste their religion. They'll never admit to it, but hey do. So long as the right parts are cherry picked....

I'd be careful of labeling "most" Christians in such a way. Especially since most ChristiNs are the catholics, the orthodox, and the liturgical protestant faiths I mentioned and they take an almost universal view subjecting the bible to the will of the Church. This fact eliminates the problem of cherry picking from the texts. Only the bibliolatrous individual is guilty of what you describe - and they're nucking futs.

The catholics are just as guilty of cherry picking as anyone else, having read the bible it is so full of contradiction that the only why one can get a consist world view is to accept some parts of it and ignore the rest.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 18, 2012, 07:47:03 PM
I'm against any authority that I don't voluntarily recognize. If it an authority that forces itself on me I am against it. For example I'm not against the authority of the moderators on this site because I volunteered to be subject to it while using this site.

And to my mind if God exists then he is EVIL and must be opposed.

So the crux of your argument is that Christianity isn't voluntary. Which frankly is ridiculous. It is only possible to construe Christianity as involuntary if you accept that it's supernatural suppositions are true, if not then there is nothing involuntary about it.

The question that I am arguing about is "Is Christianity compatible with Anarcho-Capitalism" I'm not arguing about whether or not Christianity is valid. If you are a Christian then obviously you accept the supernatural suppositions of Christianity, and those suppositions are not compatible with anarcho capitalism!

You are forgetting the original question!

I still don't quite understand your argument, are you saying that Christianity is incompatible with anarcho-capitalism in theory (i.e. a person could not logically hold both views without contradicting themselves) or in practice (i.e. a person's Christianity makes them some sort of a menace to an anarcho-capitalist society)?

Either way I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of either what anarcho-capitalism is or how one can come to it. A lot of people seem to come from a Ron Paul, Rand/Molyneux, natural rights, non-aggression, etc. I personally don't give a crap about most of these ideas/people, at least as far as my own (a)political views are concerned. I just think that the state is a destructive force and that markets and mutual aid could easily do a better job at anything the government (supposedly) does for us. I fail to see how anyone's religious views could be incompatible with that.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 18, 2012, 08:56:08 PM
,
]

The catholics are just as guilty of cherry picking as anyone else, having read the bible it is so full of contradiction that the only why one can get a consist world view is to accept some parts of it and ignore the rest.

Individual Catholics do, sure. I was, however, referring to the entire structure of catholic theology (and the theology of those faiths I mentioned). Catholicism and the faiths I mention is quite compatible with AnCap. Protestantism is, by and large, hostile as it promotes the State as sovereign.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 18, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
I'm against any authority that I don't voluntarily recognize. If it an authority that forces itself on me I am against it. For example I'm not against the authority of the moderators on this site because I volunteered to be subject to it while using this site.

And to my mind if God exists then he is EVIL and must be opposed.

So the crux of your argument is that Christianity isn't voluntary. Which frankly is ridiculous. It is only possible to construe Christianity as involuntary if you accept that it's supernatural suppositions are true, if not then there is nothing involuntary about it.

The question that I am arguing about is "Is Christianity compatible with Anarcho-Capitalism" I'm not arguing about whether or not Christianity is valid. If you are a Christian then obviously you accept the supernatural suppositions of Christianity, and those suppositions are not compatible with anarcho capitalism!

You are forgetting the original question!

I still don't quite understand your argument, are you saying that Christianity is incompatible with anarcho-capitalism in theory (i.e. a person could not logically hold both views without contradicting themselves) or in practice (i.e. a person's Christianity makes them some sort of a menace to an anarcho-capitalist society)?

Either way I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of either what anarcho-capitalism is or how one can come to it. A lot of people seem to come from a Ron Paul, Rand/Molyneux, natural rights, non-aggression, etc. I personally don't give a crap about most of these ideas/people, at least as far as my own (a)political views are concerned. I just think that the state is a destructive force and that markets and mutual aid could easily do a better job at anything the government (supposedly) does for us. I fail to see how anyone's religious views could be incompatible with that.


I'm at work and I'm responding via my phone, which can become frustrating to respond in detail with. I'll get to this when I get home. I'll do my best to make myself clearer than I have been.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 19, 2012, 12:49:26 AM
I still don't quite understand your argument, are you saying that Christianity is incompatible with anarcho-capitalism in theory (i.e. a person could not logically hold both views without contradicting themselves) or in practice (i.e. a person's Christianity makes them some sort of a menace to an anarcho-capitalist society)?

Either way I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of either what anarcho-capitalism is or how one can come to it. A lot of people seem to come from a Ron Paul, Rand/Molyneux, natural rights, non-aggression, etc. I personally don't give a crap about most of these ideas/people, at least as far as my own (a)political views are concerned. I just think that the state is a destructive force and that markets and mutual aid could easily do a better job at anything the government (supposedly) does for us. I fail to see how anyone's religious views could be incompatible with that.


I'm at work and I'm responding via my phone, which can become frustrating to respond in detail with. I'll get to this when I get home. I'll do my best to make myself clearer than I have been.

Ah, yes, phone keyboards are so much fun ;) Also, if you could expound upon why Catholicism/Eastern Orthodox is more compatible with anarchism than some of the other protestant denominations that would be cool. Like I've said before it seems to me that most major religions are compatible with anarchism (Buddhism, Islam, etc.)...


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 20, 2012, 02:41:12 AM
I still don't quite understand your argument, are you saying that Christianity is incompatible with anarcho-capitalism in theory (i.e. a person could not logically hold both views without contradicting themselves) or in practice (i.e. a person's Christianity makes them some sort of a menace to an anarcho-capitalist society)?

No. I am saying that Christianity is, no matter the flavor, decidedly pro-capitalism and, under the more hierarchical Churches that primarily exclude Protestantism, pro-anarchism.

As an aside, for future consideration - any theory that seems "good" when abstracted but is revealed as "bad" when implemented is a bad theory. While I agree that it is certainly pleasant to consider, jumping off a cliff expecting to fly will not result in levitation no matter how earnestly one believes it - you WILL fall to your death. Which means that thoughts about flying were poorly developed at best and most likely just plain stupid. In other words, communism is NOT good in theory but bad in practice - it is both bad in theory and in practice.

Quote
Either way I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of either what anarcho-capitalism is or how one can come to it. A lot of people seem to come from a Ron Paul, Rand/Molyneux, natural rights, non-aggression, etc. I personally don't give a crap about most of these ideas/people, at least as far as my own (a)political views are concerned. I just think that the state is a destructive force and that markets and mutual aid could easily do a better job at anything the government (supposedly) does for us. I fail to see how anyone's religious views could be incompatible with that.


I was not commenting at all about how a person "comes to" AnCap. My own ideological father, Hans Herman Hoppe, arrived from socialist thought. My comments were merely pointing out that, of all the flavors of Christianity, Protestantism (and the bibliolotors, more specifically) is by and large less conducive of anarcho-capitalist thought than the non/less-Protestant flavors. This is entirely due to the fact that Protestantism elevates the State to quasi-deity status. You need only consider the writings of Luther and the very real history of Protestantism. Protestants are much more likely to be hostile to anarchists as unpatriotic and irrational. Catholics, on the other hand, whose theology rests on the primacy of the international Church over the nation, and of God over It, are less hostile.

I am NOT making an absolute statement. I'm presenting a general hypothesis.

This is, of course, not to say anything about the "capitalist" part of anarcho-capitalism as all of Christianity is traditionally quite conducive for capitalist economic order. There are, of course exceptions, but it cannot be denied that it was in Christian Europe and in Catholic southern-Europe specifically, that capitalism took root and allowed humanity to escape the malthusian trap.

Quote
Like I've said before it seems to me that most major religions are compatible with anarchism (Buddhism, Islam, etc.)...


Compatible, yes. But few are compatible with capitalism, which is the other half of anarcho-capitalism. Toaism and Judaism come the closest to Christianity in their compatibility with private property and capitalism. Confucianism and Islam along with the tribal religions are the most hostile.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 20, 2012, 06:13:38 PM
Yes I am saying that Christianities idealogy is directly in opposition to anarchy and capitalism. How can Christianity be anarchistic when the old testament is not only full of kings but when God himself is a king? How can Christianity be compatible with capitalism when its ethics are Alturistic? And for the the record it doesn't matter what the religious beliefs of the people who lived and devoloped ideas. Newton was a Christian and so was Galileo, but does that mean that Christianity is more capable with scientific thought? No because Christianity values FAITH above REASON! (I'm not saying that Christians are incapable of scientific thought, only that scientific thought begins with reason which is essentially the opposite of faith.)

Alturism is odd with capitalism, and Christianity is ultimately Statist as the bible is text that is nothing but a statist violent text.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Anonymous Infowarrior on April 20, 2012, 06:51:41 PM
God is the ultimate master. Bowing down to any other than christ or god is rebellion from god.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on April 20, 2012, 08:56:16 PM
A proper Christian faith is a reasoned faith, silly as that sounds.  You're not expected to believe blindly, but to study God's Word, seek out His Spirit, and go from there.  Your answer to your prayers may vary, but that's part of the point.  This makes Christianity more compatible with science than you think--the quest for conversion and faith gets applied to the real world in science, which seeks to question, observe, and conclude.  Not all Christians get this, which is a shame.

No one's addressed father/child relationships either, which is also important to consider here.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 20, 2012, 09:44:29 PM
No. I am saying that Christianity is, no matter the flavor, decidedly pro-capitalism and, under the more hierarchical Churches that primarily exclude Protestantism, pro-anarchism.

These questions weren't actually directed to you, but to MAM. However, I am very confused about the statement you make here, especially what I put in italics. Is this a typo or do you really mean that more hierarchal a church is the more compatible it is with anarchism? This just sounds ridiculous.

You said earlier that, "protestantism [is], by and large, hostile as it promotes the State as sovereign." But how is this any different than any average group across the world (religious or otherwise)? Nearly everyone supports the state and looks to change the system from within instead of by overthrowing it, Catholics and the Orthodox included. Unless of course you mean the state as the absolute sovereign, even above God, in which case I have yet to meet anyone who actually believes this. Even the most die-hard patriotic, neo-con, 'merica is #1!!!! of my protestant friends would commit civil disobedience in a heart beat if they felt the state was asking them to do something immoral.

Quote
Compatible, yes. But few are compatible with capitalism, which is the other half of anarcho-capitalism. Toaism and Judaism come the closest to Christianity in their compatibility with private property and capitalism. Confucianism and Islam along with the tribal religions are the most hostile.

I've actually switched to a more mutualist perspective on things now, so I don't really see this as a problem. If the people are truly free than the best economic system will win out in the end.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Will on April 20, 2012, 09:59:05 PM
Yes I am saying that Christianities idealogy is directly in opposition to anarchy and capitalism.

I guess the point of my question was to play out this hypothetical: what happens when a Christian tries to join your envisioned AnCap society? Are you saying that the way he lives is incompatible with that society or that he is simply being inconsistent with his own values to be a part of it?

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How can Christianity be anarchistic when the old testament is not only full of kings but when God himself is a king?

I could show you how this is not the case (1 Sam. 8 should answer your kings question), but really why should I have to? This is just your interpretation of someone else's faith. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, no matter how silly or stupid or inconsistent it may seem.

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Alturism is odd with capitalism, and Christianity is ultimately Statist as the bible is text that is nothing but a statist violent text.

Ok...if being altruistic is at odds with capitalism than I don't want anything to do with capitalism.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 21, 2012, 12:16:18 AM
Yes I am saying that Christianities idealogy is directly in opposition to anarchy and capitalism.

I guess the point of my question was to play out this hypothetical: what happens when a Christian tries to join your envisioned AnCap society? Are you saying that the way he lives is incompatible with that society or that he is simply being inconsistent with his own values to be a part of it?

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How can Christianity be anarchistic when the old testament is not only full of kings but when God himself is a king?

I could show you how this is not the case (1 Sam. 8 should answer your kings question), but really why should I have to? This is just your interpretation of someone else's faith. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, no matter how silly or stupid or inconsistent it may seem.

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Alturism is odd with capitalism, and Christianity is ultimately Statist as the bible is text that is nothing but a statist violent text.

Ok...if being altruistic is at odds with capitalism than I don't want anything to do with capitalism.

I'm saying that they are just being inconsistent within their own belief system. I honestly don't care what someone believes, or does until NAP is violated. I value reason, and inconsistent double think I view as stupid and silly. I once a fundamentalist Christian, I've read the bible several times and like I said it is full of contradictions. You point to one passage and given enough time I could probably point to one that contradicts it. But you shouldn't because it doesn't really matter all we have to agree on is the NAP.

What is your definition of Alturism? Mine is that it obligates people to be selfless, and obligation is coercion, the antithesis of Liberty, and Anarcho-Capitalism.

In any case believe whatever you want, the beauty of what I see in my AnCap society is that there is room for dissenting opinion so long as NAP is maintained.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on April 21, 2012, 12:19:45 AM
monarchism vs randroidism vs christianity vs me.

God is the ultimate master. Bowing down to any other than christ or god is rebellion from god.
Insert Fry: "Can't tell if joke....That's all."

@kunkmiester: Why do you think god exists?

@ anyone:
I have a problem with "faith". Faith is a "just because" answer. As anarchists, we get irritated with statists who won't respond to reason and evidence. They believe in the state despite the fact that we can obliterate their arguments. Statism is faith. Seeing faith in any manifestation, whether it's about kings or holy ghosts is frightening to someone like me, who bases conclusions on reality. I get terrified at the thought of otherwise rational human beings throwing thought out the window. It's especially scary that anarchists, who have already freed themselves from the shackles of one superstition, can fail to recognize it in other forms.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 21, 2012, 12:27:12 AM
monarchism vs randroidism vs christianity vs me.

God is the ultimate master. Bowing down to any other than christ or god is rebellion from god.
Insert Fry: "Can't tell if joke....That's all."

@kunkmiester: Why do you think god exists?

@ anyone:
I have a problem with "faith". Faith is a "just because" answer. As anarchists, we get irritated with statists who won't respond to reason and evidence. They believe in the state despite the fact that we can obliterate their arguments. Statism is faith. Seeing faith in any manifestation, whether it's about kings or holy ghosts is frightening to someone like me, who bases conclusions on reality.
Seconded.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on April 21, 2012, 12:30:57 AM
Lol, commented on it while I was editing.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 21, 2012, 12:36:44 AM
Lol, commented on it while I was editing.
Haha! Good to see I'm not the only unable to sleep, presuming that you live somewhere close to me lol. In any case I think it's funny that I spent so much time arguing about whether or not Christian virtues are compatible with anarcho-capitalism when the question was whether or not it should be allowed to exist. LOL!


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on April 21, 2012, 12:52:49 AM
Lol, commented on it while I was editing.
Haha! Good to see I'm not the only unable to sleep, presuming that you live somewhere close to me lol. In any case I think it's funny that I spent so much time arguing about whether or not Christian virtues are compatible with anarcho-capitalism when the question was whether or not it should be allowed to exist. LOL!
I guess at the moment if I had to answer the thread title's question, I would say yes, it's incompatible. Religion and government are two sides of the same coin. If you yourself "have faith" that is, reserve a specific sphere of your intellectual world where you are immune to reason, then you have no right to get upset with statists for doing the same thing with government. You, as a christian, cannot hold a statist to a higher standard than yourself. You are the same. Turning off logic in places where you have deeply rooted emotional and psychological attachments to magic stories from childhood (note: the "you" I refer to is just generic).


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on April 21, 2012, 01:13:23 AM
Lol, commented on it while I was editing.
Haha! Good to see I'm not the only unable to sleep, presuming that you live somewhere close to me lol. In any case I think it's funny that I spent so much time arguing about whether or not Christian virtues are compatible with anarcho-capitalism when the question was whether or not it should be allowed to exist. LOL!
I guess at the moment if I had to answer the thread title's question, I would say yes, it's incompatible. Religion and government are two sides of the same coin. If you yourself "have faith" that is, reserve a specific sphere of your intellectual world where you are immune to reason, then you have no right to get upset with statists for doing the same thing with government. You, as a christian, cannot hold a statist to a higher standard than yourself. You are the same. Turning off logic in places where you have deeply rooted emotional and psychological attachments to magic stories from childhood (note: the "you" I refer to is just generic).

Totally agree.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on April 21, 2012, 09:52:20 AM
How do you know he doesn't? :P

I have studied, prayed, and observed the world around me.  I've seen how it works, and I've felt His influence on me and my world, and witnessed answers to prayers.  Nothing that will work particularly well to convince you.  I'm not gifted to teach, at least right now.  Much like the things I read on global warming, I can absorb and internalize things, but have trouble regurgitating for discussing with others.

My religion also varies greatly from other Christians, so the nature of the world and God I believe in is different.  It makes some discussions even more difficult.  Thus far the discussion about whether Christians can be anarchists seems to be much like whether Mormons are Christian.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on April 21, 2012, 04:34:41 PM
How do you know he doesn't? :P

I have studied, prayed, and observed the world around me.  I've seen how it works, and I've felt His influence on me and my world, and witnessed answers to prayers.  Nothing that will work particularly well to convince you.  I'm not gifted to teach, at least right now.  Much like the things I read on global warming, I can absorb and internalize things, but have trouble regurgitating for discussing with others.

My religion also varies greatly from other Christians, so the nature of the world and God I believe in is different.  It makes some discussions even more difficult.  Thus far the discussion about whether Christians can be anarchists seems to be much like whether Mormons are Christian.
You specifically cite some sort of influence. Either you claim it's an actual physical thing, in which case it's not god, or you claim it's not physical, in which case it's not real. Your sensory experiences are entirely guided by physical reality. Your thoughts, feelings, emotions, are the results of interactions between matter and energy. If you poke a hole in a brain in a specific spot, you can predict how that person will change. Consciousness is due to matter.

Even if you ignore my above argument, which I fully expect, I don't see how you could ever ascribe any specific properties to "god." Why jesus? Why not any of the thousands that have been made up before or after. Why would you expect this religion to be any different, when you understand the rest are made up?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 21, 2012, 04:37:56 PM
MAM, before I dissect your responses (please note that the tone of voice I use is more like the first 15 seconds of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OLIVNn7uMs) and NOT at all like the second 15 seconds of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6539XsWrc)), I need to make some definitions very clear to you, in order to properly explain my position.

A Protestant is a bibliolator - a bible worshipper. They are barely Christian as far as I am concerned b/c they conflate bibliolatry with the historic definition of Christianity. There are, of course, exceptions, but only on an individual basis. Please consider this thread for an explanation with text-proofs, citations, and the like, in which I dismiss the accusations of an atheist who claimed that I, in belonging to a liturgical Church, was a Christian paganist. (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=148628&hilit=scriptura) He simply had no idea what Christianity actually is - and no, I am not saying that YOU do not understand.

I'm saying that YOU do not know the definitions I am using... and that is my fault.

Yes I am saying that Christianities idealogy is directly in opposition to anarchy and capitalism. How can Christianity be anarchistic when the old testament is not only full of kings but when God himself is a king?

Well, we must first recall that I do not believe christianity is found in the Bible, it is found in the Church. Therefore, using the bible to "prove" Christianity is, to me, ridiculous and hallow. Consider the thread I cite above.

But in saying that, I must admit that on the face of it, the OT does seem rather anti-libertarian - but it aint. Consider Abraham and his abandonment of established institutionalized society at God's behest in Genesis. Mordy Oberstein says the following:

It is no accident that authentic Judaism takes a staunch line of thinking towards the autonomy of self, as its very idea of a relationship with God is firmly based upon it. As opposed to a transcendental view of the Man/God relationship Judaism takes a wholly organic approach. In the eyes of Judaism the comprehension of reality and the interacting with it constitutes the very relationship to God itself. Through understanding and observing the world man gains a glimpse into the mind of God, so to speak, and that this itself is the relationship man has to God generally speaking. However, should man demean himself and choose to become sheltered from reality by allowing and even demanding the government to interact with reality in his place, then such a relationship to God is simply impossible. Freedom in Judaic theological terms is synonymous with a relationship to God.

Further, consider the 1 Samuel 8, in which the Jews exalt God to grant them a King as the other nations are granted Kings. How does he respond? He rebukes them and warns them from this path. He had, in Deuteronomy promised them a King eventually, but he NEVER claimed that the King that would come to them would come to transform them in the eyes of other nations of earth but in Him. Therefore, when the Jews demanded a King from Samuel, they were expressing statist desires, and God told expressed anarchist desires. He has Samuel explain:

“This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.”

God had even explained that in requesting a State, a King, the Jews were turning against Him. God may be a King, and He may have appointed Judges to rule, but the entire point of a King is to protect the nation in question from idol worship. The Kings God had promised would be  philosopher Kings with a moral imperative to exalt God and God alone and to be the peoples agent before God. The events of 1 Sam 8 explain quite clearly that the Jews and, by extension, the contemporary statist, perverted both the morality and the role of rulership by elevating social security and institutionalism that would rule through coercion and violence above that of voluntary social cohesion and Godliness.

Even if we consider Deuteronomy 17:14, in which God promises a King to the Jews, we find very strict limits placed upon him regarding taxation and war making abilities. Thus the King is promised as a political eunuch. Without coercive abilities, what else was he but an authority voluntarily submitted to? For further consideration, consider Genesis 49:3-28, in which local governance is emphasized and lauded.

If we limit our discussion to the OT alone, I promise you that from a political perspective, even the OT favors anarchy over statism.
 
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How can Christianity be compatible with capitalism when its ethics are Alturistic?

Altruism is not anti-capitalist. Coercion is. Christianity does not coerce the individual Christian in to altruistic action. I'm sensing more than a bit of Objectivism in your critiques. Christianity is clearly capitalistic. If we want to play the text-proofing game, I can play it just as well as any man. It won't amount to anything b/c the Bible doesn't define Christianity - the Church does. And it cannot be denied that historically Christian areas of the world have prospered under more capitalistic economies than any other region under any other religion with any other economic order, period. I have already made reference to this post (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=152426&hilit=jesus) in which I show the text-proofing bibliolotor just how silly he is being. Combine that with my repudiation of Sola Scriptura above and you'll begin to see just how far this kind of argument gets a person.

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And for the the record it doesn't matter what the religious beliefs of the people who lived and devoloped ideas.

I disagree most vehemently.

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Newton was a Christian and so was Galileo, but does that mean that Christianity is more capable with scientific thought?

???

The Catholic Church facilitated the rise of the Occident and most of the sociological, economic, and scientific milestones until the French Revolution destroyed what little influence the Protestant revolution had not.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhARNW4l13g)

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No because Christianity values FAITH above REASON! (I'm not saying that Christians are incapable of scientific thought, only that scientific thought begins with reason which is essentially the opposite of faith.)

You are mistaking Protestantist bibliolotry with Christianity. The two are NOT the same thing.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Distruzio on April 21, 2012, 04:54:09 PM
No. I am saying that Christianity is, no matter the flavor, decidedly pro-capitalism and, under the more hierarchical Churches that primarily exclude Protestantism, pro-anarchism.

These questions weren't actually directed to you, but to MAM. However, I am very confused about the statement you make here, especially what I put in italics. Is this a typo or do you really mean that more hierarchal a church is the more compatible it is with anarchism? This just sounds ridiculous.

I meant what I said. Anarchism is not anti-hierarchical, no matter how much the leftists claim it is. It is anti-Statist. Anarcho-Capitalism is more explicitly pro-hierarchy than even traditional anarchism as the philosophy legitimates the existence of exclusionary private property and voluntary exchange.

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You said earlier that, "protestantism [is], by and large, hostile as it promotes the State as sovereign." But how is this any different than any average group across the world (religious or otherwise)? Nearly everyone supports the state and looks to change the system from within instead of by overthrowing it, Catholics and the Orthodox included. Unless of course you mean the state as the absolute sovereign, even above God, in which case I have yet to meet anyone who actually believes this. Even the most die-hard patriotic, neo-con, 'merica is #1!!!! of my protestant friends would commit civil disobedience in a heart beat if they felt the state was asking them to do something immoral.

I rather doubt they would since their morality has already been corrupted to support the State. They are supporting coercive integration, political violence, extortion, and murder by State. Civil disobedience for those you cite would be little more than giving a cop the finger when he isn't looking.

I understand your point about the near universality of Statism. This fact nearly destroyed my faith little more than a year ago, truth be told. Even my priest had little idea how to help and sought advice from my Bishop. I'm still waiting for word from the Ecumenical Patriarch about my concerns - he's a busy guy so I'm not really worried. The fact is that even believing as I do, the State exists and is the ultimate evolution of human social cohesion. How can I reconcile this with my faith that God is anarchic and that Jesus taught libertarian anarchism? Well, I do this through Hobbes. His book Leviathan clarified my position for me in a way that I never knew possible. He identified the State as vast, immortal, and an artificial man bestriding the earth. What could be less immoral than that?

If you haven't read it, I really suggest it. It is fascinating!

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Compatible, yes. But few are compatible with capitalism, which is the other half of anarcho-capitalism. Toaism and Judaism come the closest to Christianity in their compatibility with private property and capitalism. Confucianism and Islam along with the tribal religions are the most hostile.

I've actually switched to a more mutualist perspective on things now, so I don't really see this as a problem. If the people are truly free than the best economic system will win out in the end.

Why then, have the non-jewish and non-Christian parts of the world not been relatively prosperous compared to the Occident? Even the Jewish religion was altered following the rise of Christianity in order to better facilitate private property rights. Only taoism comes close and the economic results of this can be seen in a cursory view of historical China. The more taoist regions were relatively prosperous compared to the Confucianists.

Of course, even with Christianity (as vast as it is), there are differences. The Caesaropapist regimes under Orthodoxy were not as prosperous as the Theocratic Catholic regimes in southern and western Europe and the Secular State Christian regimes in northern Europe were even less prosperous - relative to one another. But, relative to the whole of the rest of the world? No other religion comes close to facilitating private property or capitalist economic order.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: anotherfreeman on April 28, 2012, 12:55:31 PM
Just found this little doozy! I need to take time for my response and I know I dropped the ball on this one seth but I promise you the works coming your way will make up for my procrastination. This is a great topic and one that needs addressing by those who are Biblically sound.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Aegidius on May 01, 2012, 10:29:40 PM
    The question of whether Christianity is compatible with any particular philosophy is difficult to answer, as there are probably almost as many interpretations of Christianity as there are Christians, and of course all of them consider their own interpretations definitive.  Any Christian whose interpretation doesn't lead them to violate the NAP is fine, and they do certainly exist.

    I've argued with Christians who were so intensely devoted to the idea of biblical perfection that they come out in favor of hereditary slavery, though, so it's a mixed bag.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 19, 2012, 05:08:28 AM
I'm going to resurrect this thread because I've resolved the issue in my own mind.  There are many types of Christianities, and anarcho-capitalism is compatible with some and incompatible with others.  However, I am no longer a Christian so it doesn't matter to me anymore.

I thought JSNTS might be interested to hear that.  It has to be encouraging when some people actually listen to arguments, take time to digest them, pursue the matter on their own and then change their mind based on the evidence.  Yeah, it happens sometimes.




Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on June 19, 2012, 12:38:05 PM
I'm going to resurrect this thread because I've resolved the issue in my own mind.  There are many types of Christianities, and anarcho-capitalism is compatible with some and incompatible with others.  However, I am no longer a Christian so it doesn't matter to me anymore.

I thought JSNTS might be interested to hear that.  It has to be encouraging when some people actually listen to arguments, take time to digest them, pursue the matter on their own and then change their mind based on the evidence.  Yeah, it happens sometimes.

Wow. I'll have to go back and reread this thread at some point, because I don't remember much of it anymore. Interesting.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 19, 2012, 02:14:19 PM
I'm going to resurrect this thread because I've resolved the issue in my own mind.  There are many types of Christianities, and anarcho-capitalism is compatible with some and incompatible with others.  However, I am no longer a Christian so it doesn't matter to me anymore.

I thought JSNTS might be interested to hear that.  It has to be encouraging when some people actually listen to arguments, take time to digest them, pursue the matter on their own and then change their mind based on the evidence.  Yeah, it happens sometimes.

Wow. I'll have to go back and reread this thread at some point, because I don't remember much of it anymore. Interesting.

Your main arguments that helped my thought processes were in another thread.  It was the argument against the three logically contradictory attributes of God: omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence.  I couldn't answer your arguments so spent a lot of time thinking about them.  They cropped up later as I began to investigate and challenge my faith and having the original exposure to them was helpful in accepting them later.   


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on June 19, 2012, 10:46:31 PM
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omnibenevolence
Odd word.  The Bible though makes quite clear however that God can be quite wrathful when He wants to be.  He advocated genocide more than once in the Old Testament, and was more then happy to let his "chosen people(Israel) to be taken into bondage when they were being too whiny.

If a child keeps reaching for the hot pan on the stove, you can't knock his hand away all the time--at some point you go ahead and let him get burned for his trouble.  If the play was scripted before the world was, then there would be no point in the show.  So, we are given free will, and some are allowed to choose evil, so that we may see it for what it is, and learn to avoid and fight against it.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 20, 2012, 05:24:13 PM
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omnibenevolence
Odd word. 

Perhaps, but a real one.  I was going for alliteration.  :)

The Bible though makes quite clear however that God can be quite wrathful when He wants to be.  He advocated genocide more than once in the Old Testament, and was more then happy to let his "chosen people(Israel) to be taken into bondage when they were being too whiny.

If a child keeps reaching for the hot pan on the stove, you can't knock his hand away all the time--at some point you go ahead and let him get burned for his trouble.  If the play was scripted before the world was, then there would be no point in the show.  So, we are given free will, and some are allowed to choose evil, so that we may see it for what it is, and learn to avoid and fight against it.

Can an all-loving God commission genocide? 

Does a loving parent let the child burn her face off to prove a point?

The problem of evil is one of the hardest things for Christianity to overcome.  The idea that all the evil in the world is somehow absolutely necessary in order to further some unseeable and unknowable greater good is hard to stomach and impossible to prove. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on June 21, 2012, 06:56:28 PM
The young child is perhaps a bit of an ad absurdum argument on both sides.  Your not going to let them burn their face off, but burning a hand on the stove, while a good example of learning by experience, allows for other argument like yours that don't quite mesh.

Should have gone ahead with the college metaphor.  You send a kid off to college, and if he works hard and does it right he comes out way ahead(ignoring issues with modern schooling).  At that point however, you have to realize you can't control a kid's life forever, and if he decides to get hooked on drugs and drop out and encourages others to do the same, there's only so much you can do to stop him--especially if we believe in nonaggression.  He'll end up encouraging others to mess up too, and what about that?  The college metaphor is more apt to the LDS view of the world, with us in a pre-existance prior to this one.

God doesn't commission evil, but how do you get rid of it without destroying free will?  We can't choose good unless there is a choice, and the flip side is evil.  If you can come up with a way for us to get life experiences and learn to tell good from evil without free will, and all that comes from that(including Hitler), then you can convince me there's something wrong.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 21, 2012, 08:37:43 PM
God doesn't commission evil, but how do you get rid of it without destroying free will?  We can't choose good unless there is a choice, and the flip side is evil.  If you can come up with a way for us to get life experiences and learn to tell good from evil without free will, and all that comes from that(including Hitler), then you can convince me there's something wrong.

Why do humans, when given free will, choose to do evil?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Aegidius on June 21, 2012, 08:53:40 PM
God doesn't commission evil, but how do you get rid of it without destroying free will?  We can't choose good unless there is a choice, and the flip side is evil.  If you can come up with a way for us to get life experiences and learn to tell good from evil without free will, and all that comes from that(including Hitler), then you can convince me there's something wrong.

A literally omnipotent being can do *whatever it wants*.  We don't need to come up with a "way".  Reality, nature itself, is at the whim of this hypothetical being.  With omnipotence, everything, -literally everything-, is exactly how you want it.  There are many paths to theodicy, but very few keep all three omni-s intact.

1.  Sacrifice omnipotence: The deity is all-knowing and all-loving, but works within certain limitations.  It does the best it can for us within the means available.

2.  Sacrifice omniscience: The deity is all-powerful and all-loving, but has limited or imperfect knowledge.  It does the best it can, but isn't always right about what is best.

3.  Sacrifice omnibenevolence: God is a jerk.

4.  Sacrifice free will: We are living in the best of all possible worlds, so quit complaining.  Anything and everything that ever happens is for the best, even if we can't see how.  "God works in mysterious ways."  Panglossianism.

5. Sacrifice involvement:  A potentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator exists, but it doesn't interfere with its creation.  Deism.

6. Sacrifice the deity:  There's no conscious entity behind the scenes; reality is what it is.  Atheism or (my brand of) pantheism.

Of all of these, I only find the deist's and atheist/pantheist's answers even remotely satisfying.  I'm sure, of course, that there are plenty more I haven't listed.  

Theodicy is an interesting and ancient theological problem.  There's no single, obvious answer.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on June 21, 2012, 11:23:02 PM
I'm remembering the argument. It came from Human Action.

Definitions:
Omnipotence-->Being able to do anything.
Omniscience-->Knowing everything that will happen.

Suppose an entity is omniscient. By definition, it knows all that will be. Now suppose further that it is omnipotent. It can do whatever it wants. But if it knows what will happen, then it can't do whatever it wants, because it would violate it's own knowledge of what was to occur....that is, if the future as you know it is correct, you can't deviate from it, meaning you're not omnipotent. Or if you can break the vision of the future, then you're not omniscient. It's a contradiction. No entity can have both properties. Therefore any god that supposedly has these properties is false. Therefore, the god you worship is false. QED.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 22, 2012, 03:38:39 PM
I'm remembering the argument. It came from Human Action.

Definitions:
Omnipotence-->Being able to do anything.
Omniscience-->Knowing everything that will happen.

Suppose an entity is omniscient. By definition, it knows all that will be. Now suppose further that it is omnipotent. It can do whatever it wants. But if it knows what will happen, then it can't do whatever it wants, because it would violate it's own knowledge of what was to occur....that is, if the future as you know it is correct, you can't deviate from it, meaning you're not omnipotent. Or if you can break the vision of the future, then you're not omniscient. It's a contradiction. No entity can have both properties. Therefore any god that supposedly has these properties is false. Therefore, the god you worship is false. QED.

That was it.  I've found out there are actually a bunch of angles on this.

If all morality comes from God's nature can God violate his own nature?  If he can, then morality is his arbitrary whim rather than being some absolute, and if he can't, then once again he is not omnipotent.

An omnipotent God should be able to alleviate evil without violating free will and without hindering the greater good.  If he can't, then he is not omnipotent. 

The concept of omnipotence leads to inherent logical contradictions almost anyway you approach it.  A defense many Christians will fall back to: "Well, God is above and beyond our human logic so it doesn't apply to him."  In that case, he is unknowable.  If we cannot apply human logic to him then we can never begin to understand or know him or his qualities.  God could be all-loving and all-hateful, or all-knowing and all-ignorant or any number of absurdities because human logic no longer applies.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Aegidius on June 22, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
Ah, you guys are taking  it a different direction than I thought.  The paradox of the stone shows the inherent problem with omnipotence pretty eleganty: "Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?"

A clever play on the paradox: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1778#comic



I still find the elusiveness of theodicy more convincing, but they're both damn good.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on June 23, 2012, 11:57:38 AM
@Aedgidius:

I required the assumption of omnipotence and omniscience together to show a contradiction, but you have an example that requires only omnipotence. You make fewer assumptions, so your argument is better. *Tips hat*.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: MAM on June 24, 2012, 05:23:10 PM
@Aedgidius:

I required the assumption of omnipotence and omniscience together to show a contradiction, but you have an example that requires only omnipotence. You make fewer assumptions, so your argument is better. *Tips hat*.

I'm sure you could use the same format of the stone paradox to demonstrate a similar inconsistency with omniscience. Perhaps something like 'Could an omniscient being create a piece of knowledge so esoteric that even he forgot it?' That's not very good but this idea just occurred to me so given time I'm sure it could be refined.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on June 24, 2012, 08:50:48 PM
You guys got me reading some interesting stuff.  Theodicy, paradoxes, etc.  A big problem with a paradox however, is the magic word we're attack with them--omnipotence.  Looking around, I found a good refutation for the stone--
Quote
Thomas Aquinas had a narrower conception of omnipotence. According to Aquinas, God is able to do anything possible; he can part the red sea, and he can restore the dead to life, but he cannot violate the laws of logic and mathematics in the way that Descartes thought that he could.http://www.existence-of-god.com/paradox-of-the-stone.html
I like Aquinas' definition better than Descartes, though the site does explain how that survives too.

I'll openly reject omnibenevolence.  God has clearly demonstrated he's willing to do very non-benevolent things, ordering genocide and such in the Old Testament, sending people to Hell, etc.  He is "all-loving" though.  As we are Children of God, he loves us like a father would, and wants the best for us.  There's not much he can do though if we decide we're going to flunk out of college, regardless of what influences there are to do so.

Quote
Why do humans, when given free will, choose to do evil?
Aside from the lecture of temptations of the devil, who knows?  Might as well ask how gravity works.  We might know someday, and some people now have some good ideas.

You cannot prove a negative.  I don't know if that's a proper logical thing, but I feel it valid.  I can't prove that God exists, but there is no logical argument against him, especially as my religion sees.  Now, if you accept that faith has power, then you can test that faith in a reasonably scientific way, and judge the outcome.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on June 24, 2012, 11:41:41 PM
Good article kunkmeister. Okay, so I retract my support for the stone argument, and fall back on the original one I put forward (borrowed from Mises). It doesn't depend upon omnibenevolence either. There is certainly a logical problem there.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 25, 2012, 05:03:45 AM
You guys got me reading some interesting stuff.  Theodicy, paradoxes, etc.  A big problem with a paradox however, is the magic word we're attack with them--omnipotence.  Looking around, I found a good refutation for the stone--
Quote
Thomas Aquinas had a narrower conception of omnipotence. According to Aquinas, God is able to do anything possible; he can part the red sea, and he can restore the dead to life, but he cannot violate the laws of logic and mathematics in the way that Descartes thought that he could.http://www.existence-of-god.com/paradox-of-the-stone.html
I like Aquinas' definition better than Descartes, though the site does explain how that survives too.

I actually just came across this today on another forum, interesting.  It does solve the rock argument which I have used before.  I would like to see how you respond to the problem of omnipotence combined with omniscience as put forth by JSNTS.  There's also the problem of action, but we can save that one for later.

I'll openly reject omnibenevolence.  God has clearly demonstrated he's willing to do very non-benevolent things, ordering genocide and such in the Old Testament, sending people to Hell, etc.  He is "all-loving" though.  As we are Children of God, he loves us like a father would, and wants the best for us.  There's not much he can do though if we decide we're going to flunk out of college, regardless of what influences there are to do so.

I don't want to get caught up in a semantics debate, but what exactly is the difference between "omnibenevolence" (literally: "all good") and "all-loving"?

Quote
Why do humans, when given free will, choose to do evil?
Aside from the lecture of temptations of the devil, who knows?  Might as well ask how gravity works.  We might know someday, and some people now have some good ideas.

The majority of Christians I've interacted with say it has to do with man's fallen nature.  Do you agree?

You cannot prove a negative.  I don't know if that's a proper logical thing, but I feel it valid.  I can't prove that God exists, but there is no logical argument against him, especially as my religion sees.

Maybe not, but we can examine the evidence for the claims your faith makes and make a decision based on high probability/improbability.  Isn't this why you are not a follower of the Almighty Thor?  You cannot prove he does not exist, but you are gambling on the very low probability that he does.  Is that fair to say?


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Hanzo on June 25, 2012, 07:32:05 PM
Yes, it is, in the same way a car is compatible with a lake. Sure, you could put it in there, but you would much rather have a boat. Or a road.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: Script on June 28, 2012, 10:23:40 PM
Yes, it is, in the same way a car is compatible with a lake. Sure, you could put it in there, but you would much rather have a boat. Or a road.

It took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about.  Then I realized you were actually answering the original question of the the thread.  :D  Guess we've strayed off point a little. 


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on July 05, 2012, 04:38:56 PM
 Guys, I came across this book via Amazon.com, and I'm going to read it in the future:
http://www.amazon.com/That-Holy-Anarchist-ebook/dp/B008F0CH5S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341522505&sr=8-1&keywords=jesus+anarchism

 It's 63 pages long, so it shouldn't take you more than a day to finish it.

 By the way, I'm a Christian and a voluntaryist.


Title: Re: Is Anarcho-Capitalism Incompatible With Christianity?
Post by: kunkmiester on July 05, 2012, 11:48:56 PM
Let me know, it sounds interesting.