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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seth King on June 18, 2011, 03:08:24 PM



Title: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on June 18, 2011, 03:08:24 PM
Seriously, I cannot stress enough the importance of completely removing Windows OS from your computer. I don't care if you get into email encryption, file encryption, or other safe online practices, it is ALL FOR NAUGHT if you are still running Windows OS.

Windows is the NUMBER ONE THREAT to your computing security. And if you're an anarchist activist, I guarantee you that you will want to use Linux full-time for all of your computing needs. Whether you're using Bitcoin, or Porcloom, or engaging in online civil disobedience like Anonymous, or publishing, or just have personal or business files you want kept secret, Windows OS is DANGEROUS. Linux is eons safer. Just look at this poor fool who wanted to protect his assets from the feds, only to still be using their computer Operating System... WINDOWS.

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2011/06/new-malware-steals-your-bitcoin.ars?comments=1#comments-bar (http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2011/06/new-malware-steals-your-bitcoin.ars?comments=1#comments-bar)

Seriously, I never use Windows anymore for anything. I haven't used it in many months, and refuse to ever use it again. Every professional program I need to use can easily be found for Linux, without any loss in quality. Sure, if you're a hardcore gamer, then you'll need Windows. Otherwise, boycott Windows and protect yourself. Go here and get started with Linux today. If you need any help, either post it in the comment section of the blog, or here in the forum.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2010/11/24/linux-and-anarchy/ (http://dailyanarchist.com/2010/11/24/linux-and-anarchy/)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: helio on June 21, 2011, 02:17:23 PM
I'm a gamer, and a computer programmer for the microsoft.net platform so I'm kinda stuck at the moment.  But I've decided to re-purpose an older box for Linux.  So i'll be making the transition in some areas.

This is abit off topic, but...
As for ending my profession as a .net developer, I can't really do that right now.  I've poked around with php (as I mainly do web development) and my initial reaction is that .net, combined with the developer tools from microsoft are superior.  I could be wrong and am willing to hear an argument from an experienced php developer who also has knowledge of .net.

Then there is the XNA framework.  I've played around with several different game development tools like Unity and Torque and believe that my goal of creating an indie game won't really happen without xna. 



Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 09, 2011, 08:17:19 PM
While I do agree with you about removing Windows...I have one problem....I play quite a few games, which I can't get unless I use Windows...plus I use the Kindle for PC app, which does NOT play nice with Wine in Ubuntu...my preferred linux OS...so any suggestions?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 09, 2011, 08:26:27 PM
While I do agree with you about removing Windows...I have one problem....I play quite a few games, which I can't get unless I use Windows...plus I use the Kindle for PC app, which does NOT play nice with Wine in Ubuntu...my preferred linux OS...so any suggestions?

It sounds like you're already using both. I see no problem with that. I started off with a partitioned disk drive, Windows and Ubuntu. Once I no longer had any reasons to use Windows, I all but got rid of it. On my next computer I'll likely not have Windows at all. I've sort of developed the attitude that if I can't do it on Linux, it isn't worth doing.  :P


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 09, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
Hm. That sounds pretty reasonable, and yes I currently am using a desktop with Windows 7, and a laptop with just Ubuntu 11.04. I'm using TrueCrypt currently too, and am considering using their "hidden operating system" feature, with the hidden operating system being Ubuntu....I'm not sure about that though if do end up using that particular feature of TrueCrypt I will definitely make the Hidden OS linux...probably Ubuntu Linux. And that way I can have a "decoy" operating system of Windows, which will have little to no sensitive files....I'll have to think about this.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 09, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
If you're a heavy duty gamer then it sounds like you've got yourself set up right. You'd want your best processing power and video cards, etc. to power your games, hence the desktop.

If you use your desktop just for gaming and possibly graphic arts, but keep your web browsing and documents strictly on your laptop, then it sounds like you're setup for the best of both worlds.

It would be nice to see the gaming world build the drivers necessary to power their games on Linux. It is the drivers that are the limiting factor, right?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 09, 2011, 09:25:54 PM
Yeah. And that's part of the main reason...the other part is that based on what I know a lot of companies like Blizzard Entertainment, and Fireaxis, etc. don't believe there is a large enough market in linux users to be a big enough incentive to "go through the trouble of developing a linux version of their games" to quote an email I got from Blizzard. Though the point may be moot soon, for me at least since 1. my laptop is screwing up, and 2. With the time I'm putting into my early college classes (for those members of the forum who are reading this don't know what I mean by that, they're basically college classes that I can take while still being a high school student) and finding a job, I probably won't have time for gaming, in which case the only reason I"ll have to keep Windows is that 1. most of the kindle books I read are on that, which can be solved by getting a tablet preferably an Android tablet. 2. I need iTunes for my iPhone though that looks like it'll be changing with iOS 5 in the Fall.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 09, 2011, 09:54:08 PM
It's only a matter of time before all software is open-source.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 09, 2011, 10:05:13 PM
That is definitely very true.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: helio on July 10, 2011, 09:07:02 AM
It isn't just a driver issue as to why companies don't make games for linux.  Coder's don't tell the graphic's cards what to do because that would be too tedious and time consuming to do that for every card a player could potentially have.  They use intermediary software like DirectX to tell the card what to do. 

So if before any game companies can even begin to start making linux ports, someone has to write a robust graphics API like Directx, but for linux.  And thats just graphics....  Read more here http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 10, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Hey, I just remembered a question I meant to ask but forgot...at least until my laptop that was running Ubuntu crashed (I'm guessing it is a hardware problem due to the fact that in the year and a half I've ran linux on this laptop I've never had it crash because of the software) Anyway my question is this...say I get an external hard drive...would it be possible to install Ubuntu on that, so that I could have a dual boot system, on one computer (which is what I'm stuck with, for now at least) without having to split the Hard Drive space between the two Operating systems?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 10, 2011, 02:08:08 PM
I don't see why not. Although, I'm no Linux expert. Remember, I generally don't learn something until I have a reason to do it myself. And that's something I've yet to do.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 17, 2011, 12:42:34 PM
Okay I just wanted to say that I have now switched entirely to Linux...though  I was wondering how do I take the free space that used to be taken up by Windows and expand my OpenSUSE partition to take up  that space?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 17, 2011, 02:13:31 PM
Okay I just wanted to say that I have now switched entirely to Linux...though  I was wondering how do I take the free space that used to be taken up by Windows and expand my OpenSUSE partition to take up  that space?

Good question! Let me know when you figure it out!  :P


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on July 17, 2011, 04:28:11 PM
Okay I just wanted to say that I have now switched entirely to Linux...though  I was wondering how do I take the free space that used to be taken up by Windows and expand my OpenSUSE partition to take up  that space?
As a last resort method you could burn DBAN (Darik's Boot and Nuke) to a CD, and also burn your Linux OS to a CD. Back up everything you want on an external HD or wherever. Then nuke the whole computer, install Linux OS and all traces of Windows are gone forever. Of course this is the round about method, and I'm sure some tech-savvy person knows a better way. Just in case though.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: xphoenix on July 19, 2011, 10:45:54 PM
Okay I just wanted to say that I have now switched entirely to Linux...though  I was wondering how do I take the free space that used to be taken up by Windows and expand my OpenSUSE partition to take up  that space?

You can keep it as a separate partition and reformat it to a Linux file system like ext4 (if you want - you can keep it as NTFS also).  Just mount it to a location in your home directory if you plan on using it for data storage.  Say you want to put in in a directory called 'stuff', you can create a directory in your home directory called 'stuff', then go in to a disk utility program and select the partition and mount it under /home/<your user>/stuff.  It will look just like any other directory in your home folder.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on July 20, 2011, 12:05:31 AM
Okay I just wanted to say that I have now switched entirely to Linux...though  I was wondering how do I take the free space that used to be taken up by Windows and expand my OpenSUSE partition to take up  that space?

You can keep it as a separate partition and reformat it to a Linux file system like ext4 (if you want - you can keep it as NTFS also).  Just mount it to a location in your home directory if you plan on using it for data storage.  Say you want to put in in a directory called 'stuff', you can create a directory in your home directory called 'stuff', then go in to a disk utility program and select the partition and mount it under /home/<your user>/stuff.  It will look just like any other directory in your home folder.

Is it unreasonable to just save the files that are important and then do a completely fresh installation of Linux over the entire hard disk?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on July 20, 2011, 09:26:20 AM
Nope it is not unreasonable...in fact that is what I ended up having to do. Now I just need to figure out if I should install truecrypt on my computers internal hard drive, as a hidden volume, and if so how, or if I should save up to get an external hard drive and use that.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Linux on July 24, 2011, 05:03:00 PM
if I can't do it on Linux, it isn't worth doing.
Market snobbery? :P


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: xphoenix on July 24, 2011, 06:15:22 PM
Is it unreasonable to just save the files that are important and then do a completely fresh installation of Linux over the entire hard disk?

I wouldn't say unreasonable, but more work :-)  I personally like to have several partitions mounted so that I can shuffle files around if one of the partitions goes bad or if I just want to reformat it.  I typically have a partition for "/", for "/usr/local", and for "/home".  When I update my distribution and want to reformat the system area of the file system, my home partition is untouched and doesn't need to be reformatted. 

Having multiple partitions is like anarchy, don't put all your eggs in one basket (partition).


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on December 28, 2011, 03:21:05 PM
The feds and hackers know how to use linux too.  If you want a safe computer you need to keep it offline and in a secure location.  If your online your hackable/trackable.  That means bank accounts, bitcoin, even encrypted stuff is just a matter of time.  Sometimes that is a long time with a lot of computing power, but that is there if they want it.

I believe gparted would have done the resize/format for you without a reinstall, although I am not sure if that is on opensuse.  I would expect you could get it though, even if from source.  I keep all my storage files on two hard drives after having many die on me.  If you use windows for anything, separating out the boot partition from storage of programs/data just becomes a pain, it is much easier in linux.  I've had to recover data from many peoples hard drives after something kills windows. 

Directx is what I hate most about Microsoft.  They know they have a lot of people over a barrel with it and they are using it to their advantage.  You can get some games running in wine.  I've heard you can get most games running well if you are really familiar with wine.  I've never had the patience to learn wine when I can boot XP64 through GRUB.  I plan on giving it a shot soon though.  I hear world of warcraft is always on the top of the list for having functioning.  I do have steam running through wine right now.  There are a few applications that run on top of wine to help manage settings to get games and programs running with no effort on your part too. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on December 28, 2011, 03:44:27 PM
The feds and hackers know how to use linux too.  If you want a safe computer you need to keep it offline and in a secure location.  If your online your hackable/trackable.  That means bank accounts, bitcoin, even encrypted stuff is just a matter of time.  Sometimes that is a long time with a lot of computing power, but that is there if they want it.

The amount of resources required to spy on mass amounts of Linux users makes the entire operation prohibitive. With Windows you are arguably handing all of your information to them on a silver platter.

The size and scope of a criminal organization is dependent on two factors: resources and resistance. The goal of an anarchist is to reduce the resources and increase the resistance to criminal organizations.

That's my motto.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on December 28, 2011, 03:46:23 PM
They spy on the network servers, not the individual computers unless they have one in mind. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 13, 2012, 07:10:34 PM
If anyone is being held up by a windows program, take a look at the Wine App Database (http://appdb.winehq.org/). 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Script on January 13, 2012, 08:34:14 PM
If anyone is being held up by a windows program, take a look at the Wine App Database (http://appdb.winehq.org/). 

Wine doesn't always work the way its supposed to.  At least, I've had mixed success.  I have a love-hate relationship with Linux.  I've successfully been able to use Ubuntu for most of my needs, but I still get stuck having to use Windows for a few specific programs (mostly for work) and it's a hassle to switch back and forth.   


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 13, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Have you tried virtualizing windows?

https://www.virtualbox.org/


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Script on January 14, 2012, 01:04:57 AM
Have you tried virtualizing windows?

https://www.virtualbox.org/

I haven't and this might be a good work around for me, but I feel that if I'm having to run Windows as a virtual system because I can't get around not using it, then I might as well just use it. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 14, 2012, 05:41:21 AM
Maybe so.  I have switched between dual booting and only windows several times.  There always seems to be something or other forcing me back to windows.  If only I didn't care about entertainment.  

(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/013/e/1/screenshot_at_2012_01_13_18_06_44_by_syock-d4m8ngg.jpg)

Wine seems to come down to what is more stubborn, me or the programs.  


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 14, 2012, 07:02:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ID2CbtnKk

Edit: Removed embedded tags so the link works again.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: dpalme on January 14, 2012, 12:35:34 PM
Being somewhat ignorant when it comes to all this computer stuff, can I run Linux on a mac?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 14, 2012, 01:16:51 PM
Being somewhat ignorant when it comes to all this computer stuff, can I run Linux on a mac?

Yeah
When Apple went from IBM processors over to Intel, they lost their hardware incompatibility issues with Windows and Linux.  

Mac OS X is actually related to Linux.  
(http://homes.ieu.edu.tr/koguz/dosyalar/is302/unix_tarih.png)

I have not watched this video, but it might get you started in the right direction.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyYqzgeZNU

Edit - to make the video link visible again.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: dpalme on January 14, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
Thanks!


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 14, 2012, 02:10:36 PM
A lot of linux distributions have a livecd.  It allows you to boot off a cd/dvd/usb without having to install anything.  It is slower than a hard drive, but it is a good way to play around with them and see if you like it.  


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 15, 2012, 10:03:21 AM
A lot of linux distributions have a livecd.  It allows you to boot off a cd/dvd/usb without having to install anything.  It is slower than a hard drive, but it is a good way to play around with them and see if you like it.  
Is there any way to set one of these up so that it cannot access your hard drive AT ALL? It still lets me go through the folders of the Windows partition.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 15, 2012, 10:09:21 AM
A lot of linux distributions have a livecd.  It allows you to boot off a cd/dvd/usb without having to install anything.  It is slower than a hard drive, but it is a good way to play around with them and see if you like it.  
Is there any way to set one of these up so that it cannot access your hard drive AT ALL? It still lets me go through the folders of the Windows partition.

Since linux can read NTFS, the only way is to disable/remove the hard drive.   The live CD makes a good recovery disk since it can read MS and Mac files. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: victim77 on January 16, 2012, 06:28:24 PM
As soon as I can load linux on a CD I'm gonna erase windows for good! My year old computer gets cpu spikes when more than one program is being used now.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on January 16, 2012, 06:36:44 PM
As soon as I can load linux on a CD I'm gonna erase windows for good! My year old computer gets cpu spikes when more than one program is being used now.

You might want to consider the alternative boot CD download version from Ubuntu. My understanding is that it comes with the ability to use full disk encryption.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 18, 2012, 02:10:05 PM
Another Reason To Switch To Linux:

Windows XP, which is still incredibly popular, doesn't know how to properly align solid state hard drives (SSD).  You have to do a lot of tinkering to get proper alignment to avoid slowness, shorter SSD lifespan and/or BSOD.  

Linux can do it automatically.  


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 12:13:34 PM
Another Reason To Switch To Linux:

Microsoft keeps it old-school with a pricey text adventure game, Visual Studio 2010 (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/01/microsoft-pimps-it-old-school-with-a-pricey-text-adventure-game.ars)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 20, 2012, 01:18:40 PM
A lot of linux distributions have a livecd.  It allows you to boot off a cd/dvd/usb without having to install anything.  It is slower than a hard drive, but it is a good way to play around with them and see if you like it.  
Is there any way to set one of these up so that it cannot access your hard drive AT ALL? It still lets me go through the folders of the Windows partition.

Since linux can read NTFS, the only way is to disable/remove the hard drive.   The live CD makes a good recovery disk since it can read MS and Mac files. 
Okay thanks. Is there any way to set one up so that it cannot WRITE to your hard drive at all?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 01:27:24 PM
Okay thanks. Is there any way to set one up so that it cannot WRITE to your hard drive at all?

That is another no.  They don't have to write, and won't write unless they are told to do so.  But they are fully capable of destroying a hard drive if you want it to.  A windows install disk can do the same thing.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 20, 2012, 01:38:58 PM
Okay thanks. Is there any way to set one up so that it cannot WRITE to your hard drive at all?

That is another no.  They don't have to write, and won't write unless they are told to do so.  But they are fully capable of destroying a hard drive if you want it to.  A windows install disk can do the same thing.
So, if someone wrote linux viruses and malware, they could somehow trick you into harming your hard drive. Say I had windows as my permanent OS installed on the hard drive, and I used linux as a "secure" web browsing pendrive OS, my activity could theoretically harm my hard drive.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: braindead0 on January 20, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
Okay thanks. Is there any way to set one up so that it cannot WRITE to your hard drive at all?

That is another no.  They don't have to write, and won't write unless they are told to do so.  But they are fully capable of destroying a hard drive if you want it to.  A windows install disk can do the same thing.
So, if someone wrote linux viruses and malware, they could somehow trick you into harming your hard drive. Say I had windows as my permanent OS installed on the hard drive, and I used linux as a "secure" web browsing pendrive OS, my activity could theoretically harm my hard drive.
Many people have already written *nix virii/malware and trojans.. and they can do just as much damage to a *nix box as they can to a windows box.

On your specific issue, you can effectively make a pendrive linux that cannot access your local HD's at all.  Simply don't compile the controller driver into the kernel or as modules.  Problem solved.  You could alternately (and simpler) delete the device nodes and disable udev/hotplug which would keep any malware from discovering your drives (short of attempting to enumerate the pci bus which is highly unlikely) however that wouldn't completely mitigate the risk.

Thinking switching to linux will make you safe is simply not true.  It *can* make you *safer*, however if the distro you choose does insecure things (say installs and runs sshd with root login permitted by default) you may be less safe.  I'd trust the privacy/security in most linux distros more so than windows, however you have to know enough to check everything because people make mistakes.

IMI the most important thing you can do is educate yourself on security and the attack vectors used to compromise systems.  And you have to be willing to keep up with it, things are constantly changing.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 02:13:30 PM
It *can* make you *safer*, however if the distro you choose does insecure things (say installs and runs sshd with root login permitted by default) you may be less safe. 

Live CD's tend to do exactly that.  I doubt windows users are going to have a clue how to exclude controller drivers. 

An installed linux can easily set up all the restrictions you seem to be asking for JSNTS. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: braindead0 on January 20, 2012, 02:34:43 PM
It *can* make you *safer*, however if the distro you choose does insecure things (say installs and runs sshd with root login permitted by default) you may be less safe.  

Live CD's tend to do exactly that.  I doubt windows users are going to have a clue how to exclude controller drivers.  

An installed linux can easily set up all the restrictions you seem to be asking for JSNTS.  
Live CD's certainly aren't designed for security.  If someone is looking for a relatively safe/secure bootable device there are tons of howto's for building your own customized Linux bootable USB.  Security isn't cheap it takes an investment in time/effort that most people will not be able to manage.

Interesting thought just came to mind though, if someone were to whip up a 'secure' bootable USB with some useful apps pre-configured (tor and privoxy maybe) might be a sellable commodity...  Someone has probably already thought of it I'd think, and it'd be really difficult to find the right mix of programs to satisfy as many people as possible.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 02:40:50 PM
Interesting thought just came to mind though, if someone were to whip up a 'secure' bootable USB with some useful apps pre-configured (tor and privoxy maybe) might be a sellable commodity...  Someone has probably already thought of it I'd think, and it'd be really difficult to find the right mix of programs to satisfy as many people as possible.

Hey Seth.  I remember the issue coming up of selling USB's.  I think if you sold USB's with that installed it would actually be worth something. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on January 20, 2012, 02:48:54 PM
A problem I see with that is that software is constantly updating. The USB's would either go obsolete over time, or you'd have to install them each time one is ordered. Even then, the software would eventually become obsolete and the person would have to upgrade. If they know how to upgrade then they really don't need to buy a pre-installed USB.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
A problem I see with that is that software is constantly updating. The USB's would either go obsolete over time, or you'd have to install them each time one is ordered. Even then, the software would eventually become obsolete and the person would have to upgrade. If they know how to upgrade then they really don't need to buy a pre-installed USB.

Planned obsolescence.  We're in business!  hehe

Even if they can update, the initial configuration is probably beyond many peoples patience or caring.  That is why the Tor browser is useful.  You could get Tor without it, but why bother when there is a better way?  


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: braindead0 on January 20, 2012, 02:57:54 PM
A problem I see with that is that software is constantly updating. The USB's would either go obsolete over time, or you'd have to install them each time one is ordered. Even then, the software would eventually become obsolete and the person would have to upgrade. If they know how to upgrade then they really don't need to buy a pre-installed USB.
Upgrades could be as simple as downloading a new image for the USB stick, maybe an app to install it for them if MBR changes are necessary... all for a fee.. in bitcoins of course ;-)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 06, 2012, 01:42:26 PM
It isn't just a driver issue as to why companies don't make games for linux.  Coder's don't tell the graphic's cards what to do because that would be too tedious and time consuming to do that for every card a player could potentially have.  They use intermediary software like DirectX to tell the card what to do. 

So if before any game companies can even begin to start making linux ports, someone has to write a robust graphics API like Directx, but for linux.  And thats just graphics....  Read more here http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776)

There's more to it than that.

Believe it or not, UNIX and UNIX-like systems (Including Windows, in fact..) all have access to an suite of APIs called OpenGL (http://www.opengl.org/). OpenGL is free, open-source, extremely fast and exposes all the cutting-edge functions that DirectX does.

Many games, believe it or not, are in fact programmed against OpenGL. This is primarily for MacOS however and not GNU/Linux.

The biggest factor limiting widespread industry adoption of GNU/Linux is the lack of a standards base. Well, technically speaking there is a standards base however nobody can agree on it.. For example, RedHat and Debian/Ubuntu can't even agree on the Package Management system for fuck's sakes... Or the shell, for that matter! Some use Bash (Borne-Again Shell), some use csh (C-Shell,) and many use Ksh (Korn-shell)

.. Absolute insanity. That's without even touching the nightmare of Sound on UNIX.. I can't even keep track of how many different Audio Subsystems there are... OSS, JACK, ALSA, PulseAudio and thanks to the brand new KDE we've got a newcommer called Phonon! (rolls eyes..)

Now before you say "Well they [Game developers/producers] can just release it as source-code and you can compile it against your system which eliminates this problem. Ez pz!" but low and behold now you've found yourself in the same boat that the Device Drivers are in... Patens, Copyright, Non-Disclosure Agreements and Non-Competition Agreements! LOL!

That's really where GNU/Linux is stuck in a headlock. This has been extensively explained by ATI (Now AMD,) in terms of "their" graphics' drivers... You see the problem is, most of the time companies don't make their own device drivers "In-house" and even when they do, they typically do it with the help of other companies or by purchasing a license to use some other companies library in "their" source and in order to get that license they had to sign a NDA or NCA... This was the case of ATI. They had Microsoft write huge portions of their device drivers and Microsoft made them sign an NDA barring ATI from ever releasing their source tree to the public.

The other side of the coin is all-out outsourcing. Did you know Intel writes the drivers for a massive portion of hardware, even things that have no "intel" logo anywhere? LOL they just have a huge team of extremely talented and experienced engineers and provide their services for reasonable rates. In most situations it's cheaper for a hardware manufacturer to create their products in some Chinese sweatshop and then hire Intel to figure out the device drivers for them.. The result is a binary blob that the manufacturer doesn't really hold ownership over, Intel does.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on September 06, 2012, 01:59:12 PM
Thank you for your information, News, and welcome to the forum!

How are all of these problems going to get reconciled?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 06, 2012, 03:05:07 PM
Is there any way to set one of these up so that it cannot access your hard drive AT ALL? It still lets me go through the folders of the Windows partition.

Okay thanks. Is there any way to set one up so that it cannot WRITE to your hard drive at all?

Yes,

There's no limit to what you can do with a GNU/Linux distribution. The way I'd approach the problem is at the source, the mount command (More specifically, your /etc/fstab configuration file that mount reads from.)

In order for a HDD to exist, the device needs to be mounted on the filesystem. Since the common mainstream GNU/Linux LiveCDs are NOT meant to be used for long-term and are really only intended for testing to see if your PC can run that distro of GNU/Linux, they're NOT setup with security in mind..

With that said, you can very easily take a liveCD and make a few slight changes to it. First of all, in your /etc/fstab you can set what's called a umask (User Mask) on the entry for the HDD you want to protect. You can either use a umask that makes writing to/on the drive unreachable or make it so the drive isn't mountable at all. In this way, everytime you tried to write to the drive (Or a program running in your userspace..) you would recieve an access denied error, even if you have ownership of the file and the permissions set on the file since the umask will be changing it in the background. Only if you changed your user using su or sudo and your valid password, could the attack succeed.

Lets face it, if the attacker can enter your password to authenticate as root there's no hope in any security approach you take :)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 06, 2012, 03:06:11 PM
If I may address one element, "package management".

Programs such as games that do not need to be installed system wide do not have any need to use the distribution's package management system (.DEB, .RPM, .ETC.). A tarball, or self-decompressing shell file work just fine. Lots of games and even such applications as Skype, The Onion Router, Pandora, and Bitcoin, are distributed like that, some complete with their own statically linked libraries to ensure that there is no "dependency" issue what so ever.

I haven't seen a system-wide 3rd-party program that hasn't been offered in both .RPM and .DEB in a decade, along with instructions to "make ;; make install" if that's what you want. Which, if you're installing 3rd party applications on your system, it would be a really good idea to know how to do, or why are you installing in the first place?

This is not to say that ANY particular "way" to install software applications and packages is the best, only that package management is not by itself an issue. It's been solved for a very long time, thank you.

I agree that sound seems confusing, but for some reason it's also "just worked" from this user's perspective since before 2000.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 06, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
Interesting thought just came to mind though, if someone were to whip up a 'secure' bootable USB with some useful apps pre-configured (tor and privoxy maybe) might be a sellable commodity...  Someone has probably already thought of it I'd think, and it'd be really difficult to find the right mix of programs to satisfy as many people as possible.

Ah, there's a few distributions designed specifically for this.

The one I recommend would be TAILS (https://tails.boum.org/index.en.html) (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) which is a distribution of Debian GNU/Linux with tor and the Security Enhanced Linux packages pre-loaded and configured. It exists on a LiveCD you can attach to any computer and boot from ;)

Another package which might be more for you Windows users is Trinity (http://trinityhome.org/). Trinity is an Arch GNU/Linux distribution which is meant specifically for DVDs/USB keys for recovering and cleaning a comprimised Windows PC. It comes pre-packaged with a number of interesting tools you can use to repair/modify a Windows-based system.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 06, 2012, 03:34:34 PM
If I may address one element, "package management".

Programs such as games that do not need to be installed system wide do not have any need to use the distribution's package management system (.DEB, .RPM, .ETC.). A tarball, or self-decompressing shell file work just fine. Lots of games and even such applications as Skype, The Onion Router, Pandora, and Bitcoin, are distributed like that, some complete with their own statically linked libraries to ensure that there is no "dependency" issue what so ever.

I haven't seen a system-wide 3rd-party program that hasn't been offered in both .RPM and .DEB in a decade, along with instructions to "make ;; make install" if that's what you want. Which, if you're installing 3rd party applications on your system, it would be a really good idea to know how to do, or why are you installing in the first place?

This is not to say that ANY particular "way" to install software applications and packages is the best, only that package management is not by itself an issue. It's been solved for a very long time, thank you.

Well perhaps you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying the reason is because of the Package Managers, per se.. I'm saying it's the plethora of choice (In every catagory except the kernel) and lack of a stable standard itself that is the problem.

Actually you bring up the best example, "./configure && make && make install" Sure we all know these, but do we really?

Did you know that "make" is a symbolic link on your system? You likely don't actually have "make" installed, as it was written in 1977 and is extremely limited. From it, "pcmake" was derived and from that, "cmake" was derived... So on and so forth. It's so fragmented that programs were developed (Autoconf) that analyse the system first and then try to generate makefiles for your system... It kept  on and continues to worsen so much that Autoconf doesn't even spit out the makefiles anymore in many cases, another middle-man program has been developed (Automake) that produces the makefiles. Think about that for a second... Our "middle-man" became so fragmented that it itself needs a middle-man... Then Middle-man B diverged so far from Middle-Man A that we needed a 3rd Middle-Man to help the 2nd! LOL! So sure, when we type "sudo ./configure && make && make install" it "just works", but, god help you if you have to be the one that makes it work :)

The problem is a lack of a stable standard "linux" system. We all say we're running "linux" but who knows wtf packages we're actually running ontop of that kernel. Look at the size of the linux generic kernel image and compare it to the size of your average GNU/Linux distribution.. Staggering! Who knows what else makes up those GBs, hell even the mainstream distributions changeup their software stacks from version to version, making it an exponential problem LOL!

The next time you're configuring, making, compiling and installing source packages watch the terminal. Most of the work is probing your system to find out which programs are available and which aren't. It's really quite amazing if you're into that sort of thing LOL.

This is synonymous with GNU/Linux. In fact we can't even say with any certainly what shell each other are using. Nevermind the shell, the terminal we use to interact with the shell is different! I'm using KDE on a Debian-based GNU/Linux system so I had "konsole" installed by default.. On an GNOME/Debian system there would be a "gterm", I think it is.. Ontop of these a standard terminal should be included always, for example xterm (The basic, bare-bones x-windows terminal) so that no guess-work should be involved, a standard base ;)

People who fight tooth and nail in the LSB debates have to realize that just because you have to have x package-manager installed, doesn't mean you can't still use your favorite y package-manager.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: kunkmiester on September 06, 2012, 11:00:35 PM
The idea I had for games was live CDs.  Optical disks are getting big enough, they could fit a Linux liveCD as well as the game, with the Linux shell perfectly adapted to run that particular game.  You have the basic browser and such to check the DailyAnarchist and such, and your chat programs and even Openoffice so you can type up that school report before loading WoW and killing brain cells.  A coalition of game companies would even be big enough to beat Microsoft into making Windows play nice with the small data storage partitions people would use.

It would almost be like returning to the Apple II days, when there wasn't really an operating system, just the program being run.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 07, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
Well perhaps you've misunderstood my point.

I'd say that after reading your reply, I understood your point perfectly well.

It's not that you've failed to convince me, it's that I believe you're wrong.

Quote
I'm saying it's the plethora of choice (In every catagory except the kernel) and lack of a stable standard itself that is the problem.

Exactly. I do not see it as a problem. I consider it a benefit.

If what you want is stability, there are Linux distributions that meet that demand. Use Ubuntu LTD, RHEL, or Debian Stable.

Software distributors package for those systems, if they package at all, and the hapless newbie has practically endless help forums or contractors available if they need help.

Quote
Actually you bring up the best example, "./configure && make && make install" Sure we all know these, but do we really?

You're just making the same point I did. Here, let me quote it:

Quote from: BobRobertson
Which, if you're installing 3rd party applications on your system, it would be a really good idea to know how to do, or why are you installing in the first place?
{emphasis added}

Quote
The problem is a lack of a stable standard "linux" system.

There is no lack of stable standard "linux" systems. There just isn't ONE.

For some people, such as yourself, that's considered a fault. For others, such as myself, it's considered a good thing.

There is no single standard Windows, either. People are running NT3.5, NT4, Win98, XP, 2K, 7, Vista, now 8, although I don't know anyone who runs (or ever ran) Millennium.

They say "I run Windows", but that doesn't actually say what they are really running.

Quote
We all say we're running "linux" but who knows wtf packages we're actually running ontop of that kernel. Look at the size of the linux generic kernel image and compare it to the size of your average GNU/Linux distribution.. Staggering! Who knows what else makes up those GBs, hell even the mainstream distributions changeup their software stacks from version to version, making it an exponential problem LOL!

This is not a Linux issue. A complete Debian install with a dozen Window Managers and Desktop Environments, including the entire GNOME and KDE4 suites, LibreOffice, etc etc etc. 4.5GB total on the disk.

Win8 installed takes 20GB, without any applications what so ever.

Live Linux CDs are exactly that, CDs, which means their entire install is less than 750MB.

Bloat is not a Linux problem. It is a human problem.

Quote
The next time you're configuring, making, compiling and installing source packages....
....
This is synonymous with GNU/Linux.

Seriously, other than the Nvidia binary video driver which I could easily avoid using, and a kernel here or there because I like doing so, I believe I haven't done a compile from source in 8 years.

And I would say there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of just Ubuntu users who have never compiled anything from source.

So I cannot agree with you on complexity, on bloat, or on any inherent need to compile.

Quote
Nevermind the shell, the terminal we use to interact with the shell is different! I'm using KDE on a Debian-based GNU/Linux system so I had "konsole" installed by default.. On an GNOME/Debian system there would be a "gterm", I think it is.. Ontop of these a standard terminal should be included always, for example xterm (The basic, bare-bones x-windows terminal) so that no guess-work should be involved, a standard base ;)

Yet they are all actually running bash. Unless you're a really old UNIX hacker, and like csh, in which case you can deliberately change which shell back-end is being run.

What you're complaining about is window dressing, not content. I do not consider the ability to choose what the curtains look like to be a problem. NOT being able to choose, now that is a problem.

Quote
People who fight tooth and nail in the LSB debates have to realize that just because you have to have x package-manager installed, doesn't mean you can't still use your favorite y package-manager.

Do they? Why? If you like "apt", run a system that supports "apt". Or Synaptic. Again, I don't see a problem.

Somehow, forcing a re-write of "apt" so that it works with RPMs and RedHat's repositories to install packages on a Debian system just doesn't seem like progress.

If fragmentation was an actual problem, people would be gravitating toward using one distribution.

But that is not what is happening. There are several large, stable base systems (Debian, RedHat, SuSE, Slackware) which people use when they want stability, and myriad derivative and stand-alone distributions because that's what people want.

If you don't want to ever compile anything, use Debian, Ubuntu, or Fedora. If you want to build everything, there's Gentoo, even "Linux From Scratch".

Ah, Linux from Scratch, at which, I must say, I took a good hard look and ran away. It is exactly what I would have loved to try when I was 16, but just too much work now.

Anyway, in summary, you and I simply disagree. I consider the Linux-based distribution ecosystem that exists right now answers every objection you have in such a way as to make them not objections at all, but features.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 07, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
NB: By "large stable base systems", I mean, "large" user community, "stable base systems" that don't change all the time.

I did not mean to imply that a Debian or RedHat install is itself necessarily bloated and huge.

Thank you.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 07, 2012, 07:22:54 PM
I'd say that after reading your reply, I understood your point perfectly well.

With all due respect, you've entirely misunderstood my point. My point is from a game producer's perspective. I was talking about what makes GNU/Linux a bad choice of a target platform.

Quote
The problem is a lack of a stable standard "linux" system.

There is no lack of stable standard "linux" systems. There just isn't ONE.

That is the problem. Having more than one standard is, by literal definition, an oxymoron. It defeats the purpose of having a standard in the first place.

It's like the early 1990s and web-development.. The fact that the target platforms were so different from each other (With IE and Netscape adhering to two completely different sets of standards) made it immensely difficult to develop and more importantly, support, complex cross-browser web applications. It is the advancement of a single and true suite of standards that enabled the explosion in web-app development we're all enjoying today.

For some people, such as yourself, that's considered a fault. For others, such as myself, it's considered a good thing.

Nonono, see again you've completely misunderstood me. I'm not at all speaking from an end-user's perspective. Perhaps a suprise, but I'm a long-time GNU/Linux user and developer. LOL I love GNU/Linux, however if you want my opinion on what holds back the industry's widespread adoption of GNU/Linux as a target platform (I.E: Video games..) I wont hold back.. ;)

There is no single standard Windows, either. People are running NT3.5, NT4, Win98, XP, 2K, 7, Vista, now 8, although I don't know anyone who runs (or ever ran) Millennium.

They say "I run Windows", but that doesn't actually say what they are really running.

That's not entirely true. I mean, the marketing departments may lead you to believe otherwise but really the only major code leaps Microsoft has ever taken was from 9x to NT.. Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98, 98se and ME were all part of the "9x" standard base. Windows NT was a completely different beast all together, jointly developed by Microsoft and IBM alongside the development of Windows 9x. Windows 2000 is in fact Windows NT 5.0. Windows XP was Windows NT 5.1. Windows Vista was branded Windows NT 6.0 and Windows 7 is Windows NT 6.1.

In everysingle Windows 9x system I know you've got MS-DOS installed. I know your MS-DOS supports Microsoft's BATCH scripting language and I know you've got a control panel that supports .cpl blobs. I know you've got a Registry and I know what files its stored in. I know you're rockin' the classic Windows Installer system. This is the standards base I'm talking about.

On Windows NT family, from Windows NT 3.0 all the way up to Windows 7 (Windows NT 6.1) I know you've got mmc.exe which is the Microsoft Management Console and it supports the .msc snap-in files. I know your control panel still supports the 9x .cpl blobs and I know you've got a shiny new 32-bit registry. I know what file-system you're using, I know you're rockin' the shinny new Windows Installer system and you don't have MS-DOS but you do have a cmd.exe which re-implements all of DOS' functions (Just the same as how WINE works) which fully supports Microsoft's BATCH scripting but also Microsoft's new Windows Script Host..

So on and so forth. This is a standards base from which developers can target.. This allows for immediate entry into the development process.. You don't have to become an expert on the particular distribution that your target user might have wound up with. Linux does not have this standards base and that's why the large software development studios do not support Linux.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 10, 2012, 07:46:24 AM
With all due respect, you've entirely misunderstood my point. My point is from a game producer's perspective. I was talking about what makes GNU/Linux a bad choice of a target platform.

Yes, I understood you perfectly well.

I will quote from my first reply:

If I may address one element, "package management".

Programs such as games that do not need to be installed system wide do not have any need to use the distribution's package management system (.DEB, .RPM, .ETC.). A tarball, or self-decompressing shell file work just fine. Lots of games and even such applications as Skype, The Onion Router, Pandora, and Bitcoin, are distributed like that, some complete with their own statically linked libraries to ensure that there is no "dependency" issue what so ever.

Now, please, what about this does not answer your objection?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 11, 2012, 09:36:12 AM
If I may address one element, "package management".

Programs such as games that do not need to be installed system wide do not have any need to use the distribution's package management system (.DEB, .RPM, .ETC.). A tarball, or self-decompressing shell file work just fine. Lots of games and even such applications as Skype, The Onion Router, Pandora, and Bitcoin, are distributed like that, some complete with their own statically linked libraries to ensure that there is no "dependency" issue what so ever.

Now, please, what about this does not answer your objection?

Well that's easy. First of all, you're wrong and so none of it answers my objection.

Lets take one of your examples and walk through it together, shall we?

Lets look at Skype (http://www.skype.com/). When you hover over "Get Skype" you see "Windows", "Mac", "Linux". If we click on Mac and Windows you see a nice, neat single-installer. It's 1 file you download that uses all the standard libraries/utils/device interfaces for that platform and the single file provides the very latest version (v5.10.0.116) of Skype with every single feature enabled. Most importantly and best of all, the installer is only 924KiB

Now when you click on "Linux" under "Get Skype" you'll see oh what's this? 6 different packages none of which provide the latest version with all the features enabled. The best you can get is with a massive tarball that has the most generic build wit all the dependent libraries also compiled under a generic environment without any options enabled and that's still only providing v4.0.0.8.. All these limitations and the tarball is still 30MiB in size!

Why do you think that is? How much cost do you think it adds for them to provide and more important support this kind of model? For Windows and Mac it's a single-file-installer that provides the very latest version but for Linux it's split up into 6 different packages and none of them provides the latest version? Interesting trade offs!

So lets think about these trade-offs for a moment. With a simple application like Skype these trade-offs aren't as expensive as they could be but just imagine for a momment that we're talking about a multi-GB video games hrmm!

So lets dig deeper into these Skype packages. First lets consider that for each of the 6 available packages somebody spent the time to build/install a reference system for each. This means they installed the system then installed all the development utilities, libraries (And all their sources..) required to configure/build the kind of package they're creating and then built Skype with the basic features and package it into the desired package taking care to follow that package's specifications. Then they install the newly created package a number of times in different ways to make sure there were no bugs in the package. This had to be done for each of the available packages, for each of the supported Distributions of Linux.

The reason all this must go on is because there is no standard, stable Linux Base that the Skype team can target with a single-file-installer.. You can't use a pre-determined package manager because we dont' know which package management system the Linux user's using. This means they [Game Devs] can either pre-compile everything against a no features, no-flags, no-options i386 without even MMX instructions, tarball the entire thing up and provide an INSTALL/README file with detailed instructions on where [The User would have to..] to place everything... Or they [The Game Devs] could re-invent the wheel and create their own installer. Alas, since both of those alternative options are totaly none-starters when it comes to professional game development companies they instead need to create a bunch of these massive system-dependent packages that roll-up every possible library and utility Skype might need just in case it's not there on the user's Linux system.. Then they have to write a wrapper to wrap around the game's main executable that can determine what capabilities your system supports and take advantage of them accordingly by way of clever dynamic-link libraries. This is necessary for games because they demand such immense power from your system they need all the advanced instructions/capabilities they can get. Then they have to support this god-awful approach to software distribution.

Needless to say, for Game Development companies this is a no-go.

.. Again, need I remind you that none of these mountain-high problems exist on Mac or Windows? Both Mac and Windows provide a stable standard base from which Game Developers can work from. There is no guess-work involved. You use the Windows Installer framework to build your installer (Hense the beautiful 940KiB installer for Windows vs a 30MiB beast for GNU/Linux.) and you already have the DirectSound framework available that exposes functions for your programs and handles audio device interfacing. You've got Direct2D and Direct3D for your graphics functions and again it handles all the device interfacing.. This is true of the Mac too where you've got a wide-range of infrastructure already there for you to build with and it doesn't change, as it's part of a stable standard base! All you and your team of developers have to worry about is making great and games... :)

This is not a new topic. This is cutting to the core of GNU/Linux community disputes and the massive exodus of developers from the GNU/Linux communities heading to the Mac OSX community. It's really sad but it's because of thick-headed Linux zealots that can't see the forest from the trees and refuse to embrace a standards base.

</rant>


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 11, 2012, 11:52:34 AM
Well that's easy. First of all, you're wrong and so none of it answers my objection.

Of course. That makes perfect sense.

Quote
Lets look at Skype (http://www.skype.com/). When you hover over "Get Skype" you see "Windows", "Mac", "Linux". If we click on Mac and Windows you see a nice, neat single-installer. It's 1 file you download that uses all the standard libraries/utils/device interfaces for that platform and the single file provides the very latest version (v5.10.0.116) of Skype with every single feature enabled. Most importantly and best of all, the installer is only 924KiB

Granted as fact.

Quote
Now when you click on "Linux" under "Get Skype" you'll see oh what's this? 6 different packages

Yep, for 6 different ways of doing the same thing, including statically linked tarball which is exactly what I was talking about. The rest of them are there for convenience, not necessity.

You said the problem was that it was impossible for a game publisher to produce once for Linux. Your own counter-example here shows that this assertion of yours is false.

And indeed the statically linked version is larger than the 5 dynamically linked ones, but that (again) is a feature, the ability to not have any library dependencies. A choice, benefiting both user and developer, which the developer does not need to provide. In fact, the "Dynamic" generic is the only one they "need" to provide, a single package for all Linux, the very thing you say is impossible.

But wait, what size was that "Dynamic", generic version of Skype for Linux? Sadly, where I am now I am unable to determine that. I'll try to remember to look later, you've made me quite curious.

Quote
none of which provide the latest version with all the features enabled.

Really? That's it? The fact that a Microsoft product is not 100% up-to-date and enabled for use on Linux is, to you, the fault of the Linux community?

I just want to be certain that you meant to say what you have said.

Quote
So lets think about these trade-offs for a moment. With a simple application like Skype these trade-offs aren't as expensive as they could be but just imagine for a momment that we're talking about a multi-GB video games hrmm!

Yes, it's truly absurd to imagine that some game system, Steam for example, would ever be written to run on Linux.

Quote
The reason all this must go on is because there is no standard, stable Linux Base

Ah, didn't you point out yourself that there was a standard, base tarball install?

So which is it? Is there a basic standard that they can build for (and did), or is there not? Please, make up your mind.

Quote
This means they [Game Devs] can either pre-compile everything against a no features, no-flags, no-options i386 without even MMX instructions

Non-sequitur. If they are going to be delivering a binary they are going to have to precompile it. Therefore, they will (in your words) "pre-compile everything against a no features, no-flags, no-options i386 without even MMX instructions", or provide more than one binary anyway.

Again, your objection is not to Linux, your solution is no solution to the problems you describe.

Quote
Then they have to write a wrapper to wrap around the game's main executable that can determine what capabilities your system supports and take advantage of them accordingly by way of clever dynamic-link libraries. This is necessary for games because they demand such immense power from your system they need all the advanced instructions/capabilities they can get. Then they have to support this god-awful approach to software distribution.

Which happens anyway, since, as you say, they're delivering binaries.

What happens with Windows and Mac, then, when the developers compile for MMX, 3D hardware acceleration, etc? Oh, hey, this is one I can answer! They publish their requirements and if your Windows or Mac system don't have them, they don't even bother trying to support it.

Which again answers to your objection being an objection that has nothing to do with Linux.

Quote
.. Again, need I remind you that none of these mountain-high problems exist on Mac or Windows?

Woops, hahaha, your objections do apply to both Mac and Windows. Maybe you haven't seen the "minimum hardware/software requirements" section on a game box, but I have. I recommend you take a look next time and notice that the specified hardware and software requirements are spelled out on the box.

So no, every game compiled for "Windows" will not run on every Windows version and every hardware configuration. Your supposed objection to Linux is not an objection to Linux at all.

Quote
This is not a new topic.

On that I agree completely. I've seen your objections fall flat on their face for 17 years now.

Quote
It's really sad but it's because of thick-headed Linux zealots that can't see the forest from the trees and refuse to embrace a standards base.

To which I gladly reply: it's really sad that the thick-headed Windows trolls continue to make fools of themselves by trying desperately to bad-mouth a software ecosystem they simply cannot comprehend.

Quote
</rant>

Indeed, something we can both agree on.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 11, 2012, 01:00:00 PM
Yep, for 6 different ways of doing the same thing, including statically linked tarball which is exactly what I was talking about. The rest of them are there for convenience, not necessity.

You said the problem was that it was impossible for a game publisher to produce once for Linux. Your own counter-example here shows that this assertion of yours is false.

I did? Actually in response to this (http://dailyanarchist.com/forum/index.php/topic,665.msg2266.html#msg2266) post ("Drivers hold back game developers from widespread adoption of Linux", to paraprase..) I said this:

Quote from: NewsIsBiased
There's more to it than that.

Believe it or not, UNIX and UNIX-like systems (Including Windows, in fact..) all have access to an suite of APIs called OpenGL. OpenGL is free, open-source, extremely fast and exposes all the cutting-edge functions that DirectX does.

Many games, believe it or not, are in fact programmed against OpenGL. This is primarily for MacOS however and not GNU/Linux.

The biggest factor limiting widespread industry adoption of GNU/Linux is the lack of a standards base.

It's not economically viable for Game developers to target the Linux platform ;)

Maybe you haven't seen the "minimum hardware/software requirements" section on a game box, but I have. I recommend you take a look next time and notice that the specified hardware and software requirements are spelled out on the box.

You're confusing hardware limitations with software limitations, though. You're right, on the side of the box it lists what hardware you need. It doesn't list what software infrastructure it requires, because it uses the standards base.

So no, every game compiled for "Windows" will not run on every Windows version and every hardware configuration. Your supposed objection to Linux is not an objection to Linux at all.

Now you're just crazy. There hasn't been a binary compatibility break in Windows since the jump from 9x to NT back in the early 2000s. That's 12 years of solid binary compatibility. Atually most games that people are playing barring the few that exclusively program against DirectX 11 (Which most do not. Even the ones that make use of DX11 will fallback gracefully to DX10 (Win2000) and DX9 (Windows 9x) allowing the game to work.) will work on very old releases of Windows (Granted that your hardware can run the game..)

Microsoft isn't a steller example of how to do it but even they have provided 12 years of a stable standards base from which to develop on. Really, take a look at the Mac as an example of a stable standards base. Even with the shift from the MacOS to OS X, OS X shipped with a binary compatibility layer so as to not break the old MacOS software. That's what make Windows and Mac an appealing development platform in the eyes of a software/game development company when compared to something like GNU/Linux.

Indeed, something we can both agree on.

 :-*


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 11, 2012, 01:39:53 PM
It's not economically viable for Game developers to target the Linux platform

It will be interesting to see how Steam works out.

I expect, from experience, that it will indeed be difficult for mid-priced games to be sold to a Linux-using crowd, due to the existence of a portion of Linux users who are basically cheapskates.

It's been a long time since I paid $40-ish for StarCraft, and much the same for Privateer.

Quote
You're confusing hardware limitations with software limitations, though. You're right, on the side of the box it lists what hardware you need. It doesn't list what software infrastructure it requires, because it uses the standards base.

Skype does. Qt library version, Pulse Audio (optional), etc.

StarCraft did, Win95. I've seen others that required Win98, and XP. But I haven't shopped in a long time, either.

I think the problem I have with your statements is that you're making blanket pronouncements which are easily disproven by single examples.

What you really mean above is that the latest Windows and MacOS are assumed, not that they are not required. I assure you that if I tried to run these games on Win95, they would not work. Oh, later you assert that they will just work. Oh well.

Quote
Now you're just crazy.

No, I just don't make huge blanket statements where just one example will disprove them.

Quote
That's 12 years of solid binary compatibility.

And binaries compiled for early Linux will work today as well.

Quote
Atually most games that people are playing barring the few that exclusively program against DirectX 11...

It's interesting to me that, when you wrote about Linux binaries compiled for some default, that was the fault of Linux. Now, you're talking about "barring the few that exclusively program against DirectX..." as if that's the fault of the programmers.

There is very little (actually, pretty much nothing) you're saying technically as a programmer that I disagree with. What I object to is your pattern of making every problem with software running on Linux out to be a Linux problem, while every exception you make for the perfection of programs running on Windows is somehow the application's problem and not Windows.

I've had many programs refuse to run without particular versions of DirectX, and always in the direction of "the version isn't high enough", which signals good backward compatibility. But that is also what I've found with binaries complied for Linux, such as Skype's library requirements being "this or later".

The issues you raise are not "Linux" problems, even though, I agree, they are problems. And they have been solved on all OS platforms pretty much the same way.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 11, 2012, 03:33:31 PM
Quote
Atually most games that people are playing barring the few that exclusively program against DirectX 11...

It's interesting to me that, when you wrote about Linux binaries compiled for some default, that was the fault of Linux. Now, you're talking about "barring the few that exclusively program against DirectX..." as if that's the fault of the programmers.

...

I've had many programs refuse to run without particular versions of DirectX, and always in the direction of "the version isn't high enough", which signals good backward compatibility. But that is also what I've found with binaries complied for Linux, such as Skype's library requirements being "this or later".

Well we're about to take a jog in a circle so hang on tight LOL..

When it's the direct result of the programmer's choices, sure! On Windows there's a choice, you see... On GNU/Linux there isn't. You either program against the OpenGL graphics stack or you swallow your pride and write games for another platform. On Windows this isn't the case. They chose to program against DirectX 11 (Which makes it Windows Vista+ only)

What I meant was that DirectX 11 provides no added features over the latest OpenGL and doesn't do anything (From a programmer's standpoint..) that DirectX 10 couldn't do and yet Microsoft has designed it and it's license in such a way that it simply is not available for anything except Windows 7 and the upcoming Windows 8. This is their marketing department's doing. Game development studios who make the horrific choice to target DirectX 11 have made a conscious decision to exclude all version of Windows from Windows Vista down. OpenGL could have done it and kept the door open to legacy Windows and the future potential of a native UNIX and UNIX-like port.)

Now... I said "barring DirectX 11" as in, the overwhelming majority of Game Dev studios that make the logical decision to target DirectX 10, their games do work on Windows all the way down to Windows 2000, a 12 year old platform without any code re-writes, re-configs or re-compiles. Windows 95 on the other hand, well first lets considering that that's a 17 year old platform that's 16-bit LOL so there's some serious limitations. Even still, it is able to run a full DirectX 8.1 stack allowign it to run a lot more games than you give it credit for to this very day :)

It will be interesting to see how Steam works out.

Indeed! I'm quite interested, myself. If anybody can pull it off and provide a path that the other studios can follow, it's Valve!

The thing is, many people overlook the fact that Valve isn't just a Game studio anymore, they've broken into the software distribution market and have all but dominated the Windows and Mac niche in this regard. They've brought the Apple-style "App Store" to the desktop PC gaming market. Brilliant!

This not only gives them added revenue but it's also the key to success on Linux, in my opinion. Think about it, Valve having their own software distribution model allows them to side-step all the bad about developing Games on Linux while still enjoying all the benefits heehee!

Personally I have high hopes. I think, when Valve polishes off their distribution software's Linux port it will quickly get picked up as the de-facto standards base I was talking about, positioning Valve at the very top of Linux-Game providers, licensing their distribution service to other game studios (Allowing those game studios to focus on the game and not the operating system's petty squabbles about the OSS and DirectRenderingInfrastructure) and allowing the Linux end-users to benifit from games.

The other big thing I've got hopes for is the industry-pull that Valve can leverage, if their strategy is successfull. Again, if they provide a seamless distribution model for the industry and the industry picks it up, that means the industry also inadvertantly picks up OpenGL and whatever other technologies Valve decides on using for their framework.. Ugh, it's all so very exciting :)

Move over Linux Zealots arguing for 15 years about a Linux Standards Base... Valve's here to make one :)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 12, 2012, 07:40:10 AM
When it's the direct result of the programmer's choices, sure! On Windows there's a choice, you see... On GNU/Linux there isn't.

It is very clear you cannot see your continued biased statements even when I have held them up to you.

Trying to teach someone who cannot learn is just torture, and I will not be a torturer. Best of luck to you.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Aegidius on September 12, 2012, 08:47:00 AM
I may be missing something here, but it seems like the problem of a lack of a standard software infrastructure in Linux can be nearly or completely solved by giving the user a list of dependencies and letting them worry about it.  Dwarf Fortress is developed on Windows, but the guy who does it also compiles on a Linux machine and just puts a text file with a list of dependencies in with the download.  It works fine.  Once again, I may be missing something, but it seems to me like a developer can just *pick* a "standards base" at will and then let the user take responsibility for making it available on the machine.

At any rate, thanks to the wine project many Windows binaries work just fine in Linux.  I play Skyrim at maximum graphical settings.  ;D


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 12, 2012, 10:51:53 AM
I may be missing something here, but it seems like the problem of a lack of a standard software infrastructure in Linux can be nearly or completely solved by giving the user a list of dependencies and letting them worry about it.

Yep, just like the "system requirements" lists on the side of the box citing Windows dependencies.

And that assumes that there is any lack in the first place. As I mentioned earlier, the system-level inconsistencies between distributions, which the Linux Standards Base tries to solve, are at the system level. An application installed in a user's home directory has nothing to do with it, and never did.

Quote
Once again, I may be missing something, but it seems to me like a developer can just *pick* a "standards base" at will and then let the user take responsibility for making it available on the machine.

I don't think you're missing anything. This thread has a LOT of confusion and conflation of "Standards Base" which is the system-level "what goes where", and "dependencies" such as library versions, the Linux equivalent of "DLL".

What I've been trying to do this whole time is point out that developers make generic Linux applicaiton installs, that any user can run from their home directory.

While installing system-level programs, complaining that Debian does it differently than RedHat is very much like complaining that Microsoft does it differently than Apple. That hasn't stopped developers from writing programs that install on both Apple and Microsoft platforms.

Quote
At any rate, thanks to the wine project many Windows binaries work just fine in Linux.  I play Skyrim at maximum graphical settings.  ;D

My only Windows program, Wizard101, works exactly that way. Max graphics, max detail, glorious.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: NewsIsBiased on September 12, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
I may be missing something here, but it seems like the problem of a lack of a standard software infrastructure in Linux can be nearly or completely solved by giving the user a list of dependencies and letting them worry about it.  Dwarf Fortress is developed on Windows, but the guy who does it also compiles on a Linux machine and just puts a text file with a list of dependencies in with the download.  It works fine.  Once again, I may be missing something, but it seems to me like a developer can just *pick* a "standards base" at will and then let the user take responsibility for making it available on the machine.

Yes and that's how most of the free games are distributed on Linux which works fine for average users (Even more than average with some of the more user friendly distros like Ubuntu) but there's a lot of users who aren't competent to handle a list of dependencies. (Or even be relied upon to find/read a readme or install file LOL!)

For more reading on the issue of a LSB, see Wikipedia: Linux Standard Base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base).

At any rate, thanks to the wine project many Windows binaries work just fine in Linux.  I play Skyrim at maximum graphical settings.  ;D

Wine is great, I use it to play Age of Empires  :-[ my computer couldn't handle Skyrim haha  ;)


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on September 15, 2012, 11:56:29 PM
This thread is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: kunkmiester on September 16, 2012, 10:19:43 PM
No one has responded to the idea of having a game boot from a live CD directly, not relying on the machine's OS at all?

Heck, I'd imagine that the game developers would eventually standardize on something, then the not-quite-geeks would settle on that, and Linux would stabilize.  Distros like Puppy can fit in amazingly small spaces, and with blu-ray and such you have plenty of room for even larger packages.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Aegidius on September 17, 2012, 01:16:47 AM
No one has responded to the idea of having a game boot from a live CD directly, not relying on the machine's OS at all?

Heck, I'd imagine that the game developers would eventually standardize on something, then the not-quite-geeks would settle on that, and Linux would stabilize.  Distros like Puppy can fit in amazingly small spaces, and with blu-ray and such you have plenty of room for even larger packages.

I've been thinking about making a bootable minecraft disk, actually, and the one problem I'm having that I can't think of an easy way around is video drivers.  I could just make seperate Nvidia, Intel, and AMD boots, I guess.  There may be other issues I'll run into when I finally try it.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: kunkmiester on September 17, 2012, 01:46:07 AM
I thought OpenGL already covered that.  That's part of the big argument here, and was pointed out early.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Aegidius on September 17, 2012, 01:55:39 AM
I thought OpenGL already covered that.  That's part of the big argument here, and was pointed out early.

Nah, I'm talking about device drivers: the pieces of software that let the operating system take full advantage of particular video hardware.  OpenGL is an API.  It lives at a higher level of abstraction (if I correctly understand what it is).


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 17, 2012, 08:14:33 AM
I thought OpenGL already covered that.  That's part of the big argument here, and was pointed out early.
Nah, I'm talking about device drivers: the pieces of software that let the operating system take full advantage of particular video hardware.  OpenGL is an API.  It lives at a higher level of abstraction (if I correctly understand what it is).

Knoppix has excellent graphic card autodetection, to load the correct drivers, but it doesn't work perfectly on every hardware iteration. Nothing does. But it does well _enough_ most of the time.

Such a thing is certainly possible, and the instructions for remastering Knoppix are available for anyone who wants to try.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on September 19, 2012, 07:55:37 AM
Oh look, the Humble Indie Bundle #6 has come out, and again runs just fine on "Linux".

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Humble-Indie-Bundle-6-Comes-to-Linux-293201.shtml

https://www.humblebundle.com/

Remarkable. Game producers releasing for Linux. Again! Who would'a thunk it?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on November 02, 2012, 10:38:27 PM
Okay, so I am currently using Windows Vista. Personally, I am not ripping my hair out everytime I use my computer, but that may be because I am just use to it. I have never like the interface of Macs, but I never tried using Linux. Since I know that there are so many different variations of Linux, which kind do you think would be best for me. I use my computer for the following things:

-Video Games
-Netflix
-Other Internet Stuff
-College schoolwork using Word, Powerpoint, Adobe PDFs, etc.


Since I am not programming, is it even worth me to switch from Windows. Vista doesn't bother me, but at the same time, I have heard that Linux is much more secure, and is "better".


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on November 02, 2012, 10:52:16 PM
Okay, so I am currently using Windows Vista. Personally, I am not ripping my hair out everytime I use my computer, but that may be because I am just use to it. I have never like the interface of Macs, but I never tried using Linux. Since I know that there are so many different variations of Linux, which kind do you think would be best for me. I use my computer for the following things:

-Video Games
-Netflix
-Other Internet Stuff
-College schoolwork using Word, Powerpoint, Adobe PDFs, etc.


Since I am not programming, is it even worth me to switch from Windows. Vista doesn't bother me, but at the same time, I have heard that Linux is much more secure, and is "better".


I would use Linux Mint if I were you. It comes with a user interface that's very similar to Windows, for easy transition.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on November 03, 2012, 12:39:45 AM
Okay, so I am currently using Windows Vista. Personally, I am not ripping my hair out everytime I use my computer, but that may be because I am just use to it. I have never like the interface of Macs, but I never tried using Linux. Since I know that there are so many different variations of Linux, which kind do you think would be best for me. I use my computer for the following things:

-Video Games
-Netflix
-Other Internet Stuff
-College schoolwork using Word, Powerpoint, Adobe PDFs, etc.


Since I am not programming, is it even worth me to switch from Windows. Vista doesn't bother me, but at the same time, I have heard that Linux is much more secure, and is "better".


A man who has lived with a stone in his shoe for his entire life does not curse the stone, but upon losing the stone realizes how bad it was.

Apple forces their interface to look a certain way, with Linux it can be anything you want.

I've only used Debian and Arch.

Don't start with Arch go with Debian. However Mint and Ubuntu are designed I think to appeal to former Windoze users so you may want to try them.

But why stick to one? Keep trying them until you find one you like. Also if you are interested in Linux you may want to take a look at the Arch Wiki, that is a great source of information even if you aren't using Arch.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Syock on November 03, 2012, 01:36:08 AM
-Video Games

Mixed.  Depends on what games you play, and if you are willing to put in the time or money to get it going.

-Netflix
-Other Internet Stuff

Potential problem.  I heard on this forum that flash support was being dropped.

-College schoolwork using Word, Powerpoint, Adobe PDFs, etc.

Potential problem.  If you have to turn in the files to the teachers, sometimes there are format issues, even if it says it is saved as Word/Powerpoint. 

I actually had to learn Unix in college to use a program.  Linux was an easy jump for me.  I still seem to use XP more than I like, because 'it just works'. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on November 05, 2012, 09:57:57 AM
Since I know that there are so many different variations of Linux, which kind do you think would be best for me.

Just download anything that says "LiveCD". Burn a disk (or a thumb drive), stick it in and boot your computer using that.

It's been more than a decade since Knoppix pioneered the LiveCD, and people still don't know about it.

Your computer boots from the CD (or thumb drive), and you get a full running Linux system.

Now of course, since you're running off a CD and not the HD, it's not going to load applications as quickly as you would expect, but it will give you a way to experience the available applications and such without having to touch your existing system at all.

Quote
-Video Games
-Netflix
-Other Internet Stuff
-College schoolwork using Word, Powerpoint, Adobe PDFs, etc.

Depends on the game, of course. Many popular games are not compiled for Linux, but WineHQ has ways to make lots and lots of games work.

Netflix is a complete wash. Netflix and Microsoft have conspired to make sure that it never ever works on Linux. I suggest running VirtualBox or VMware or some other virtual install of Windows if you must have it.

Hulu and YouTube work just fine. Vlc will play any media file made.

Internet Stuff runs on Linux because the majority of servers in the world are Linux servers.

There are several different office suites which do everything Microsoft Office does. Adobe does not release their product for Linux. However, LibreOffice and many others print to PDF just fine.

Quote
Since I am not programming, is it even worth me to switch from Windows. Vista doesn't bother me, but at the same time, I have heard that Linux is much more secure, and is "better".

More secure, yes. But "better" is subjective.

If you're happy, then use Windows. I have run Linux since I first heard about it, but you don't have to.

Most of the applications, such as LibreOffice, OpenOffice, GIMP, Firefox, etc., run on Windows just fine. They run on Linux exactly the way they do on Windows, so if you use any of those you already know what you'll find.

Give a LiveCD a try. But most important of all, use what works for you.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on November 06, 2012, 12:19:06 AM

Just download anything that says "LiveCD". Burn a disk (or a thumb drive), stick it in and boot your computer using that.

It's been more than a decade since Knoppix pioneered the LiveCD, and people still don't know about it.

Your computer boots from the CD (or thumb drive), and you get a full running Linux system.

Now of course, since you're running off a CD and not the HD, it's not going to load applications as quickly as you would expect, but it will give you a way to experience the available applications and such without having to touch your existing system at all.

So I found this website: http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=104

Do I just download the file "linuxmint-13-mate-dvd-64bit.iso" off of one of the listed primary servers to a CD and then double click the CD? Do I need to change the file type or download any other auxiliary software? I just want to do it right the first time since the file size is quite large (almost a GB) and I don't have the greatest download speed (250-350kbps).



Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on November 06, 2012, 12:49:50 AM

Just download anything that says "LiveCD". Burn a disk (or a thumb drive), stick it in and boot your computer using that.

It's been more than a decade since Knoppix pioneered the LiveCD, and people still don't know about it.

Your computer boots from the CD (or thumb drive), and you get a full running Linux system.

Now of course, since you're running off a CD and not the HD, it's not going to load applications as quickly as you would expect, but it will give you a way to experience the available applications and such without having to touch your existing system at all.

So I found this website: http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=104

Do I just download the file "linuxmint-13-mate-dvd-64bit.iso" off of one of the listed primary servers to a CD and then double click the CD? Do I need to change the file type or download any other auxiliary software? I just want to do it right the first time since the file size is quite large (almost a GB) and I don't have the greatest download speed (250-350kbps).



I notice you're downloading 64 bit. Make sure your hardware is built for 64 bit software.

After you've done that, yes, download one the .iso.

Then go here and skip ahead to page 9 of the PDF. There is will tell you how to make sure your download came through just right, and after that how to create a LiveCD, followed later by how to boot from your LiveCD in order to install.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on November 06, 2012, 08:44:02 AM
So I found this website: http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=104

Mint has been recommended by many people.

Quote
Do I just download the file "linuxmint-13-mate-dvd-64bit.iso" off of one of the listed primary servers to a CD and then double click the CD? Do I need to change the file type or download any other auxiliary software? I just want to do it right the first time since the file size is quite large (almost a GB) and I don't have the greatest download speed (250-350kbps).

Ok.

Yes, it's a big file because it is an entire CD. It has in the image all the programs that make up a Linux system.

I didn't see the link to the PDF that Seth refers to in his post above, so http://www.muktware.com/1240/create-live-cd-dvd-linux-mint-11 has pictures and instructions. Windows has a "Burn disk image" option in its context menu which is exactly what you want to do with the .iso.

So download the .iso file, right-click and select "Burn disk image", and it will write it to a blank CD in your CD writer.

If you reboot and your computer does not boot from the CD image, reboot again and hold down the ESC key, it will usually allow you to select what device to boot from. Choose your CD drive.

Oh, and I wrote up a blog post of my own about the joys of the Live CD yesterday too:

http://anarchic-order.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-linux-live-cd.html


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on December 12, 2012, 09:00:36 PM
Yeh, I got it to work! I am typing this using a Linux Mint Maya Live CD.

So, now what do I do?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on December 12, 2012, 09:24:52 PM
Yeh, I got it to work! I am typing this using a Linux Mint Maya Live CD.

So, now what do I do?

Install that puppy!


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: RJ Miller on December 13, 2012, 07:40:33 AM
Nothing brightens my day more than talking an old abandoned piece of hardware, replacing the hard drive with a SSD, and installing Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on it.

With that, a used desktop costing under $100 can be running again with no major updates or modifications needed for the next five years or so.  :D


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on December 14, 2012, 12:55:07 PM
Nothing brightens my day more than talking an old abandoned piece of hardware, replacing the hard drive with a SSD, and installing Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on it.

I'd be very interested in replacing the ATA laptop drives with SSD, but I haven't seen any way to tell if the interface is correct. All the SSDs seem to have only SATA.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: RJ Miller on December 14, 2012, 02:55:25 PM
I'd be very interested in replacing the ATA laptop drives with SSD, but I haven't seen any way to tell if the interface is correct. All the SSDs seem to have only SATA.

I wish I were more familiar with how to do similar changes with a laptop. ATA SSD exist, but I would never claim to know how to make the switch myself.

If anything, I think anyone getting a laptop today should get an SSD by default now that the cost has gone down for flash memory.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on December 14, 2012, 03:30:26 PM
Interesting. While the "quick sort" options under SSD on NewEgg.com were all SATA, the correct interface for laptops is PATA (or some variation of IDE) and while no PATA showed up when SSDs were listed, searching for both came up with plenty of results.

Twisted. Anyway, I found out the best way to do it is start with "Laptop" and search from there for SSD.

I wouldn't go with less than 128GB for a single-disk machine like a laptop, and those are still expensive enough to keep me away from them. But they can do nothing but drop in cost as the technology improves. Agreed, RJ, getting a laptop now with anything other than SSD is being silly.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on December 14, 2012, 04:38:38 PM
Quote
I heard on this forum that flash support was being dropped.

Flash needs to die.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Agrarian_Agorist on December 16, 2012, 08:15:54 PM
As I stated earlier, to which Syock made reference to; from Adobe:

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP (http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP)

Quote
NOTE: Adobe Flash Player 11.2 will be the last version to target Linux as a supported platform. Adobe will continue to provide security backports to Flash Player 11.2 for Linux.

Also, I would advise against using Ubuntu 12.10 or beyond; seeing as how Canonical has sold/leased the dashboard search lens to Amazon: meaning when one tries to do a search of their own computer for a file, the search goes through Amazon servers to find a match; this information Amazon uses and also sells to others.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on December 16, 2012, 08:30:41 PM
As I stated earlier, to which Syock made reference to; from Adobe:

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP (http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=BUIGP)

Quote
NOTE: Adobe Flash Player 11.2 will be the last version to target Linux as a supported platform. Adobe will continue to provide security backports to Flash Player 11.2 for Linux.

Also, I would advise against using Ubuntu 12.10 or beyond; seeing as how Canonical has sold/leased the dashboard search lens to Amazon: meaning when one tries to do a search of their own computer for a file, the search goes through Amazon servers to find a match; this information Amazon uses and also sells to others.

Arch baby


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Agrarian_Agorist on December 16, 2012, 08:43:48 PM
Yeah, I know.  I still want to try Arch and Slackware, before I decide to go back to FreeBSD; I just dread having to move everything from my hard drive so I could get rid of UBUNTU.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on December 16, 2012, 08:45:33 PM
Yeah, I know.  I still want to try Arch and Slackware, before I decide to go back to FreeBSD; I just dread having to move everything from my hard drive so I could get rid of UBUNTU.

How many HD do you have?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Agrarian_Agorist on December 16, 2012, 08:56:38 PM
I have a few, but they aren't set-up as system drives.  I only have the one which was configured to run an OS; which means I would have to remove everything from it before I could get rid of UBUNTU and re-partition it for a multi-boot system.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on December 16, 2012, 09:11:09 PM
I have a few, but they aren't set-up as system drives.  I only have the one which was configured to run an OS; which means I would have to remove everything from it before I could get rid of UBUNTU and re-partition it for a multi-boot system.

I have an 80gig and 1TB one I'm going to set up the 80 as a boot drive and have all my stuff on the 1TB that way if something happens to my OS I can reinstall without losing my stuff.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on December 17, 2012, 12:08:49 AM

Install that puppy!

Now, I have checked out Linux Mint Maya 13 on my live cd and I like the interface. Over the winter break, I plan to install mint on my computer. Which option do you (or anyone reading this) think is the best, keeping in mind my primary usage of the computer is for Netflix, Video Games, and School Work.

Option 1) Wipe hard drive completely and install Mint. What little programs I want to save I will transfer over later? (Will transferring even work).

Option 2) Dual Operating System. I have heard that you can run Windows Vista and Mint. Therefore, when I use Bitcoin or other things I can use Linux, and when I want to play video games/netflix, I use Windows. Will my computer still be 'secure' as if I was only operating Linux?

Option 3) Install Mint, but keep all of my current data (much of it I don't need or don't even know what it is).

Any other options out there?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on December 17, 2012, 12:33:20 AM

Install that puppy!

Now, I have checked out Linux Mint Maya 13 on my live cd and I like the interface. Over the winter break, I plan to install mint on my computer. Which option do you (or anyone reading this) think is the best, keeping in mind my primary usage of the computer is for Netflix, Video Games, and School Work.

Option 1) Wipe hard drive completely and install Mint. What little programs I want to save I will transfer over later? (Will transferring even work).

Option 2) Dual Operating System. I have heard that you can run Windows Vista and Mint. Therefore, when I use Bitcoin or other things I can use Linux, and when I want to play video games/netflix, I use Windows. Will my computer still be 'secure' as if I was only operating Linux?

Option 3) Install Mint, but keep all of my current data (much of it I don't need or don't even know what it is).

Any other options out there?

When you go to install Mint, it will ask you if you want to install over the whole disk, or create a partition. You should create a partition. It sounds difficult, but it's not. It does it all for you. That way when you boot your computer you'll first get a little screen that comes up and asks you if you want to boot Windows or Mint. Super easy.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on December 17, 2012, 10:36:19 AM
It sounds difficult, but it's not. It does it all for you. That way when you boot your computer you'll first get a little screen that comes up and asks you if you want to boot Windows or Mint. Super easy.

I've done the same thing with a laptop of mine that just will not run Wizard101 under WINE. The graphics driver just isn't good enough, but the one in Windows is.

The multi-boot is very easy. Install Windows first, using the Windows installer to use half the drive.

Then install Linux. I used Debian but any distribution should work at least as well.

The ones that automatically install the pointer to the Windows partition in GRUB are nice, but even if that isn't automatic it's a very easy editing of one file to make it work.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: oooorgle on December 19, 2012, 08:41:42 AM
I'm a gamer as well. I have a strictly gaming only pc which is Windows, and another which is a lower end box with an Ubuntu build which I use for emails and everything communicative.

When the Open Source realm really wants the majority to switch, they will catch up on the gaming end. But then, fascist gaming developers throw a big wrench in the process when most children want their games.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on December 21, 2012, 08:47:03 PM
Say if I were to go all out and switch to Linux Mint Maya from Windows Vista 64-bit, would you recommend that I DBAN my hard drive first, and then load the Linux Mint onto it? There is alot of data on my computer that I don't use or don't even know what it does. Should I just rip the band-aid off quickly, pour some alcohol on it and be done with it?


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on December 21, 2012, 11:28:18 PM
Don't remove your Windows partition. Otherwise you won't be able to game anymore.

I would just stick with the partition idea.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: devilsanarchist on December 23, 2012, 08:49:14 AM
if your a gamer run a linux based alienware computer that is what they are made for linux has a few ways to get your games you just hve to know search the web but as stated before delete windows from your life i am a hardcore mac fan but there governmental control and there overwhelming need to be in control is staggering dont fall in


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on December 23, 2012, 12:09:14 PM
if your a gamer run a linux based alienware computer that is what they are made for linux has a few ways to get your games you just hve to know search the web but as stated before delete windows from your life i am a hardcore mac fan but there governmental control and there overwhelming need to be in control is staggering dont fall in

Apple has good hard ware but their software is shit. Not as bad as Windoze but it's pretty bad.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on January 06, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
I am now typing this in Linux Mint 14 Nadia!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdN0NXgjsn8


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on January 06, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Nice! Well done!


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on January 06, 2013, 07:55:00 PM
Wow, I don't know about this Linux operating system. I don't know why everyone is so gun-ho about this operating system. To do even some relatively simple tasks, like installing a printer or iTunes, takes a ton of time. It seems like nothing naturally works on Linux. For everything you have to do some huge workaround that takes hours of work, and half the time it still doesn't function properly. I can't even get my printer to work after spending half the day experimenting with drivers and workarounds. And I spent all of yesterday trying to get iTunes to work and can only get the program itself to work (won't sync).

Is there a version of Linux that uses the same format as Windows? Meaning it has a C-Drive, Recycle Bin, Program Files, etc? If Mint 14 is the closest to Windows as one can get, then I might have to go and download a Windows 7/8 iso and switch back because I can't do 95% of the stuff I could on my old system. All I can really do so far is surf the Internet. 


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: MAM on January 06, 2013, 08:13:26 PM
Wow, I don't know about this Linux operating system. I don't know why everyone is so gun-ho about this operating system. To do even some relatively simple tasks, like installing a printer or iTunes, takes a ton of time. It seems like nothing naturally works on Linux. For everything you have to do some huge workaround that takes hours of work, and half the time it still doesn't function properly. I can't even get my printer to work after spending half the day experimenting with drivers and workarounds. And I spent all of yesterday trying to get iTunes to work and can only get the program itself to work (won't sync).

Is there a version of Linux that uses the same format as Windows? Meaning it has a C-Drive, Recycle Bin, Program Files, etc? If Mint 14 is the closest to Windows as one can get, then I might have to go and download a Windows 7/8 iso and switch back because I can't do 95% of the stuff I could on my old system. All I can really do so far is surf the Internet. 
iTunes won't work because the Apple programers works to make it so. As far as your printer working who knows.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: kunkmiester on January 06, 2013, 08:40:04 PM
Printers are always a bit of a pain I've found.  Maybe it's just me and you though.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on January 06, 2013, 10:08:29 PM
iTunes sucks!!

Rhythmbox or some other free and open source software alternative should come with Linux Mint.

There is a slight learning curve that comes with switching to linux. I've gone through it, and so has everybody else that switched from Windows to Linux. Don't quit now. You'll figure it all out and you'll be glad you did, because Linux is way more powerful and has way more opportunities than Windows.

A word of advice. Anything you need to get working on Linux Mint but don't know how to do you can figure out here:

http://forums.linuxmint.com/

I'm not kidding. Sign up with that forum. Any time you have a question ask it there. Tell them you're a noob and need to be walked through things step by step. Be humble. They should be able to help you out.

Secondly, there's something you're going to be told many times. The sooner you heed the advice, the better. At this point in your adventure it's time to RTFM. That stands for Read The Fucking Manual.

If you want to get good in a hurry, read this manual:

http://linuxcommand.org/lc3_learning_the_shell.php

It's something I wish somebody would have pointed me to when I first installed Linux, but no one ever did. Instead, I bumbled around for a couple of years not knowing my ass from a hole in the ground, which led to much frustration.

Seriously, you do those two things and you'll be up to speed in no time.

Edit: Oh, and that manual is going to take several days, or weeks, to finish. Just take your time and walk through it step by step. You'll get there. Linux is going to be what you'll likely use for a very long time. You might and well get to know it intimately as soon as possible.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Guardian on January 07, 2013, 01:02:43 AM
Well, I switched back to Windows. At least after this whole experience I no longer use Vista and now use Windows 7.

iTunes sucks!!

Yeah, I don't like the program, but my family uses iPods, so they needed the program.



Secondly, there's something you're going to be told many times. The sooner you heed the advice, the better. At this point in your adventure it's time to RTFM. That stands for Read The Fucking Manual...Oh, and that manual is going to take several days, or weeks, to finish. Just take your time and walk through it step by step. You'll get there. Linux is going to be what you'll likely use for a very long time. You might and well get to know it intimately as soon as possible.

If people want to spend weeks reading a manual just to figure out how to operate a computer, more power to them. I ain't willing to do so. I don't want to have to spend three or four hours figuring out a workaround every time I need to do something new. I shouldn't have to be a computer programmer in order to make a computer do what I want it to do.

My personal opinion for anyone out there reading this thread. If you want to use the internet covertly, then use Linux. If you want to use your computer for anything else and don't want to major in computer engineering, then stick with what you know.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: Seth King on January 07, 2013, 01:25:13 AM
Well, I switched back to Windows. At least after this whole experience I no longer use Vista and now use Windows 7.

iTunes sucks!!

Yeah, I don't like the program, but my family uses iPods, so they needed the program.



Secondly, there's something you're going to be told many times. The sooner you heed the advice, the better. At this point in your adventure it's time to RTFM. That stands for Read The Fucking Manual...Oh, and that manual is going to take several days, or weeks, to finish. Just take your time and walk through it step by step. You'll get there. Linux is going to be what you'll likely use for a very long time. You might and well get to know it intimately as soon as possible.

If people want to spend weeks reading a manual just to figure out how to operate a computer, more power to them. I ain't willing to do so. I don't want to have to spend three or four hours figuring out a workaround every time I need to do something new. I shouldn't have to be a computer programmer in order to make a computer do what I want it to do.

My personal opinion for anyone out there reading this thread. If you want to use the internet covertly, then use Linux. If you want to use your computer for anything else and don't want to major in computer engineering, then stick with what you know.


Dude, just because you don't know what you're doing yet doesn't mean it's Linux's fault.

Your family can use their iPod with Rhythmbox. I do all the time. In fact, Rhythmbox is BETTER than iTunes, because iTunes(at least they used to, I haven't used it in years) PREVENTS you from uploading the songs on your iPod and putting them on your computer! They did that to prevent people from sharing music! FOSS like Rhythmbox doesn't do stupid shit like that.

You don't need to be a computer programmer to use Linux. I sure as hell wasn't when I got started. Just think of it like riding a bicycle. It hurts a little bit at first and can be frustrating, but the payoff is huge! And not just for surfing the web anonymously.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on January 07, 2013, 08:59:30 AM
Well, I switched back to Windows. At least after this whole experience I no longer use Vista and now use Windows 7.

I'm stuck using Win7 for work. "Better than Vista" certainly.

Quote
iTunes sucks!!

Yeah, I don't like the program, but my family uses iPods, so they needed the program.

There's also gtk-pod, in addition to Rythembox, if you want to continue to use those proprietary non-standard things. I never could figure out why I would want to pay several times as much money for something that does the same thing as any MP3 player, while the cheaper players show up in every OS as standard USB thumb drives.

Quote
If people want to spend weeks reading a manual just to figure out how to operate a computer, more power to them. I ain't willing to do so.

You were, when you started. Now you know what works for you, which is great. Use that.

Quote
I shouldn't have to be a computer programmer in order to make a computer do what I want it to do.

The difference being that in order for me to get a Windows system to do "what I want it to do" I would have to be a programmer.

Quote
My personal opinion for anyone out there reading this thread. If you want to use the internet covertly, then use Linux. If you want to use your computer for anything else and don't want to major in computer engineering, then stick with what you know.

Funny, that's been everyone's advice from the beginning, with one caveat: Try different things, do not assume.

You've expanded your world, and that's a good thing. You've returned to Windows, with a new appreciation for how it works for you.


Title: Re: Another Reason To Switch To Linux
Post by: BobRobertson on January 07, 2013, 09:51:23 AM
{rant}

Just a note about something that sort of "sticks in my craw" as it were.

A Linux system is not going to have "C:\Program Files\" and the like because it's not Windows.

Several of the various different desktop managers have "Documents", "Downloads", even "Public" directories set up automatically under your username, if you like that sort of thing.

Even the two-step trashcan, which asks "Do you want to send X to the trash?" and "Do you really want to delete these four files permanently, forever, and irrevocably for certain?" is implemented for those who can tolerate it want that sort of thing.

But the single biggest lesson to get, up front and without any ambiguity: THIS IS NOT WINDOWS

Expecting a Linux system to work like Windows is a deal killer. Someone would not buy a Mac and then consider it a failure when it didn't work like Windows, why do people continue to act surprised when the same thing happens running Linux?

{/rant}