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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: state hater on September 15, 2013, 02:43:40 PM



Title: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: state hater on September 15, 2013, 02:43:40 PM
We are all no doubt familiar with the Ron Paul phenomenon:  a minarchist-and possibly closeted anarcho-capitalist-runs as a Republican for Congress and wins numerous times, and runs for President and attracts a huge following.  Many people were impressed with his ability to infiltrate the Republican party and become a fly in the ointment of statists of varying political stripes.  Many of the people who supported him have ended up as anarcho-capitalists. 

Aside from the numerous criticisms that have been leveled against all manner of economically left-wing "anarchists" (among them being their desire to use violence against people minding their own business and destroy their property, their insistence that they have the right to bud into private, voluntary deals between employer and employee, and the inescapable fact that the foundation of left-wing economics is government intervention and control of the economy), there is another peculiarity about these confused individuals that should be pointed out:  they lack any sizable minarchist counterparts.  There are legions of minarchists who are the counterparts of us anarcho-capitalists:  they are the aforementioned Ron Paul fans, among others.  Anarcho-Capitalists have minarchist counterparts both inside and outside the Republican Party, but there is no sizable contingent of minarchist counterparts to "anarcho"-communists/socialists/syndicalists/[all other left-wing "anarchists"], either inside or outside the Democrat Party.  I find this very strange and very interesting. 

Could it be that the desire for little to no government is fundamentally incompatible with left-wing economics, and that left-wing anarchists are thinly-disguised statist idiots who think that calling themselves anarchists will help them outmaneuver their ideological opponents?


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Syock on September 15, 2013, 03:02:19 PM
Aside from the numerous criticisms that have been leveled against all manner of economically left-wing "anarchists" (among them being their desire to use violence against people minding their own business and destroy their property, their insistence that they have the right to bud into private, voluntary deals between employer and employee, and the inescapable fact that the foundation of left-wing economics is government intervention and control of the economy), there is another peculiarity about these confused individuals that should be pointed out:  they lack any sizable minarchist counterparts

Could it be that the desire for little to no government is fundamentally incompatible with left-wing economics, and that left-wing anarchists are thinly-disguised statist idiots who think that calling themselves anarchists will help them outmaneuver their ideological opponents?

Of course.  They just don't recognize that what they advocate is democracy, with a nonsensical economic outlook.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Seth King on September 15, 2013, 03:03:09 PM
I have been spending a decent amount of time trying to better understand anarcho-communism on reddit. I'd say I went in with a fairly open mind.

I think the thing that bothers me most is their complete lack of understanding of basic economics. Simple things like supply and demand, the subjective value theory, price discovery, etc. Those concepts are totally lost on anarcho-communists.

All they ever seem to focus on is hierarchy and egalistarianism. They really seem almost like infants crying foul because one of their peers in better than them at something and got a better reward.

I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: MAM on September 15, 2013, 03:28:37 PM
Quote
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

They say the same things about us! It's pretty hilarious.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: state hater on September 15, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
So is there even such a thing as an economically left-wing minarchist, or are they just extremely rare?  

Either way, do you three agree that the lack of a continuous spectrum among economically left-wing people between full blown statist and "anarchist" (i.e., because there are few to no economically left-wing minarchists, thereby leaving a huge gap between dime-a-dozen liberal statists and left-wing "anarchists") casts serious doubt on the validity of the claims by these left-wing "anarchists" that they are in fact anarchists?

Edit:  Put another way, why does almost every minarchist who moves on to anarchism become an anarcho-capitalist or voluntaryist?


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: state hater on September 15, 2013, 03:36:02 PM
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

In one of my early threads, I stated that economically left-wing "anarchist" schools of thought were populated by less "serious" (perhaps it would be more accurate to say less permanent) types of people.  In other words, your stereotypical "anarchist" who lives in his parents' basement until he's thirty, showers about once a month, and vandalizes private property during various protests, definitely tends heavily to be economically left, and many of them tend not to remain ancom/ansynd/etc. past their early thirties.  In other words, they're loser youths who either eventually develop a modicum of responsibility or else fall by the wayside.  I remember you and others were skeptical of my perception, stating how we are so vastly outnumbered by these kooks, and that many of them are middle aged and eldery.

I'm glad that you're more optimistic now.  :)


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: SimonJester on September 15, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

In one of my early threads, I stated that economically left-wing "anarchist" schools of thought were populated by less "serious" (perhaps it would be more accurate to say less permanent) types of people.  In other words, your stereotypical "anarchist" who lives in his parents' basement until he's thirty, showers about once a month, and vandalizes private property during various protests, definitely tends heavily to be economically left, and many of them tend not to remain ancom/ansynd/etc. past their early thirties.  In other words, they're loser youths who either eventually develop a modicum of responsibility or else fall by the wayside.  I remember you and others were skeptical of my perception, stating how we are so vastly outnumbered by these kooks, and that many of them are middle aged and eldery.

I'm glad that you're more optimistic now.  :)

There seems to be a significant correspondence between left-wing politics, particularly extreme positions on the left, like communism, and not having a proverbial pot to piss in.  The whole "rob the rich and give to the poor" idea is only appealing to the poor.  The first time you get a real paycheck, and see what's taken out of it to support the have-nots, tends to change your perspective.  This might explain the tendency to "grow out of" an-com philosophy.  That and a deeper understanding of what actually makes things go.  The workers are predominantly "workers" because they're not qualified to be anything else.  Not a popular statement, but true enough.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Syock on September 15, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
So is there even such a thing as an economically left-wing minarchist, or are they just extremely rare?  

Either way, do you three agree that the lack of a continuous spectrum among economically left-wing people between full blown statist and "anarchist" (i.e., because there are few to no economically left-wing minarchists, thereby leaving a huge gap between dime-a-dozen liberal statists and left-wing "anarchists") casts serious doubt on the validity of the claims by these left-wing "anarchists" that they are in fact anarchists?

Edit:  Put another way, why does almost every minarchist who moves on to anarchism become an anarcho-capitalist or voluntaryist?

I think the problem lies in that to go full scale, it needs to have a mechanism to enforce their view of equality of stuff/work.  That doesn't just happen naturally.  That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for a small government type in the sense that we see it.  

The result is they build organizations within the framework we are all stuck in right now, and end up with things like co-ops.  They are essentially libertarian socialists.  

I've said this a few times in the past.  Hippies are the peaceful version of that social vision.  I think we would have no problem co-existing with them.  I also think their econ system works, on a small scale, only including themselves.  The problem is when the other types attempt to force it on the world, it falls apart economically as it requires people to be willing and able to participate.  By the time they are forced to participate, everyone is living a subsistence lifestyle.  

I don't think they are some tiny group.  I don't think the concepts will go away.  It is a different sense of right and wrong.  People do not require things to make economic sense to utterly believe in it.  


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: victim77 on September 15, 2013, 04:35:50 PM

I think the problem lies in that to go full scale, it needs to have a mechanism to enforce their view of equality of stuff/work.  That doesn't just happen naturally.  That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for a small government type in the sense that we see it.
I would tend to disagree with that. I think that getting rid of the government and government sponsored corporations will do wonders for wealth inequality, social justice, and worker's rights.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Syock on September 15, 2013, 04:36:48 PM

I think the problem lies in that to go full scale, it needs to have a mechanism to enforce their view of equality of stuff/work.  That doesn't just happen naturally.  That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for a small government type in the sense that we see it.
I would tend to disagree with that. I think that getting rid of the government and government sponsored corporations will do wonders for wealth inequality, social justice, and worker's rights.

I don't disagree with that, but that isn't where they stop. 


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: victim77 on September 15, 2013, 05:51:27 PM

I think the problem lies in that to go full scale, it needs to have a mechanism to enforce their view of equality of stuff/work.  That doesn't just happen naturally.  That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for a small government type in the sense that we see it.
I would tend to disagree with that. I think that getting rid of the government and government sponsored corporations will do wonders for wealth inequality, social justice, and worker's rights.

I don't disagree with that, but that isn't where they stop. 
Are you talking about ancomms?


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Seth King on September 15, 2013, 06:51:48 PM
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

 I remember you and others were skeptical of my perception, stating how we are so vastly outnumbered by these kooks, and that many of them are middle aged and eldery.

I'm glad that you're more optimistic now.  :)

They still vastly outnumber us, but I think we have the potential to really grow over the coming years. People are going to come to hate the state and they're going to be presented with a choice. Anarcho-communism and all of its flavors, or anarcho-capitalism. I think they'll choose anarcho-capitalism.

Anarcho-communism is the philosophy of poverty for all.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: victim77 on September 15, 2013, 07:43:41 PM
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

 I remember you and others were skeptical of my perception, stating how we are so vastly outnumbered by these kooks, and that many of them are middle aged and eldery.

I'm glad that you're more optimistic now.  :)

They still vastly outnumber us, but I think we have the potential to really grow over the coming years. People are going to come to hate the state and they're going to be presented with a choice. Anarcho-communism and all of its flavors, or anarcho-capitalism. I think they'll choose anarcho-capitalism.

Anarcho-communism is the philosophy of poverty for all.
Come on now it's "voluntaryism". True capitalism has been stained by crony capitalism. Our PR department sent out a memo about this.


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Seth King on September 15, 2013, 08:38:28 PM
I really don't think their philosophy is worth a damn, to be honest. I used to think that their philosophy would compete with ours, but now I think their numbers are never really going to grow. They'll always be a whining minority.

 I remember you and others were skeptical of my perception, stating how we are so vastly outnumbered by these kooks, and that many of them are middle aged and eldery.

I'm glad that you're more optimistic now.  :)

They still vastly outnumber us, but I think we have the potential to really grow over the coming years. People are going to come to hate the state and they're going to be presented with a choice. Anarcho-communism and all of its flavors, or anarcho-capitalism. I think they'll choose anarcho-capitalism.

Anarcho-communism is the philosophy of poverty for all.
Come on now it's "voluntaryism". True capitalism has been stained by crony capitalism. Our PR department sent out a memo about this.

It depends on who you're trying to appeal to.  ;)


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Seth King on September 18, 2013, 10:05:56 PM
http://lionsofliberty.com/2013/06/03/mondays-with-murray-rothbard-on-chomsky-and-anarcho-syndicalism/


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: anarchoguitarist on September 21, 2013, 04:48:16 AM
On the one hand, I personally am very sympathetic with any left libertarian groups out there, even anarcho-communists.  I want to see anarchists of all varieties agree in their opposition to the state and agree to disagree on other issues like economics or how a particular community is run on a local level. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure some left anarchist groups can be trusted.  Their most extreme proponents have such a dogmatic outlook that it is indistinguishable from a fundamentalist religious belief.  I am confident that in an "anarcho-capitalist" society, any group of anarcho-communists/syndicalists could easily establish egalitarian communities and worker owned/managed cooperatives and they would be able to live in peace with their anarcho-capitalist neighbors.  However, would a group of people be able to establish a voluntary community based on private property in an anarcho-communist society?  I doubt it.  I would think that many anarcho-commies would use violence and even form a state to stop such a community from even existing.

Lets also examine a well known left libertarian character like Noam Chomsky, who is very good when talking about war and foreign intervention.  However, when talking about domestic policy, the man seems to have no principles whatsoever as this site's Davi Barker has pointed out.  Chomsky seems to think that democracy is some sort of ideal, when it is completely statist through and through and antithetical to anarchy.  On virtually every issue the man will support the domestic programs of the Democratic Party no matter how many regulations or taxes they put upon the individual.  He even supports gun control and thinks that the police should own weapons that I can't own.  This doesn't sound like anarchy to me. 


Title: Re: An additional reason why left-wing anarchism is bogus
Post by: Victor on September 27, 2013, 04:31:36 PM
I think the "minarchist counterparts" to anarcho-communists would be Marxists. Fortunately, Marxism seems to have come and gone over the last century as far as making a large impact on the world, though there are still plenty of academics who hold his philosophy or quite similar as their ideal.

(Obviously Marxism isn't minarchic in any way, it just seems like it fits the analogy the best.)

I'm personally with-holding my judgement on anarcho-communism until I actually have a chance to read some of the major intellectual works their side has produced. (Proudhon's What is Property? and Kropotkin's Mutual Aid are on my list.) Hopefully I'll be able to get a clearer picture of their philosophy that way. So far I've just read reviews of both of the aforementioned authors.