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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SinCityVoluntaryist on June 06, 2013, 07:02:36 PM



Title: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on June 06, 2013, 07:02:36 PM
 I am fully and utterly convinced voluntaryism will never work. However, it's not for the reasons you may think. I believe in anarcho-capitalism and its ideas. However, what I have come to the conclusion on is that there is no force in Heaven or Hell that will allow left-wing anarchists (socialists and communists) to peacefully co-exist with us. Allow me to explain why. One of the pro-voluntaryist/an-cap pages on Facebook was trolled by a bunch of left-anarchists with their usual childish antics. One of them, saying that ancaps were a joke, was face by my question of how ancaps were a joke when they subscribed to a philosophy where it was moral to engage in violence by damaging property. Now, the idiot that asked the question couldn't even answer. He just accused me of being another white, middle-class American who lived in a white neighborhood. Then, as if the stupidity level couldn't get any higher, another asshole basically accused me of using bad logic because property was an intimate object, and therefore, could not violence initiated against it. In other words, if someone breaks into my house, terrorizes me and steals my things, it's not a crime because property doesn't have any feelings. Brilliant.

 Guys, I'm serious, we need to view leftist anarchists one the same level that we view statists. They will never co-exist with us. Period. They must be viewed as a threat at all costs. Believing that establishing a voluntaryist society where people can live the way they want and adhere to non-aggression will never happen so long as their twisted philosophy is allowed to take root in the minds of men. 


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: State-God on June 06, 2013, 07:26:48 PM
It's a very tricky question, if only because were we to combat them in some sort of revolutionary situation I think it would be very easy for anti-AnCom policies to turn into anti-Everything-not-our-particular-brand-of-anarchist. Revolutions can turn into terror very quickly, easily and painfully.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: MAM on June 06, 2013, 07:47:34 PM
It's a very tricky question, if only because were we to combat them in some sort of revolutionary situation I think it would be very easy for anti-AnCom policies to turn into anti-Everything-not-our-particular-brand-of-anarchist. Revolutions can turn into terror very quickly, easily and painfully.

We don't need to iniate the coercion we just need to sit back, keep our guns clean and wait for them.

And while they're trying to kill us they'll make everyone think they're the hurt party and call us reactionaries. Using the same basic strategy that the Muslims have used to spread their religion.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on June 06, 2013, 08:09:56 PM
^I agree with MAM. In all honestly, how much of a threat are these idiots? What are they gonna do? Throw Molotov cocktails at us from a distance and use that to claim victory? Yeah. Good luck with that. They don't even have an organized movement.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: State-God on June 06, 2013, 08:14:46 PM
^I agree with MAM. In all honestly, how much of a threat are these idiots? What are they gonna do? Throw Molotov cocktails at us from a distance and use that to claim victory? Yeah. Good luck with that. They don't even have an organized movement.

And we do?

The big problem is this. In a revolutionary situation, it doesn't matter how organized you are or how many guns you have. What matters is meeting the demands of the revolutionary masses.

If the AnCom's pull a Bolshevik (i.e. lie through their teeth till the day is done) they can defeat us easily. And depending on what exact situation the revolution takes place in, we might never have a chance.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: ff42 on June 06, 2013, 08:25:36 PM
I subscribe to the theory that if children can be rescued (from brainwashing, torture, etc.) then they will remain an-caps and not infect voodoo (religion or state) onto their children.  In a generation or two their COULD be only an-caps (our basic nature). 

Yes there will be an occasional genetic abnormality or brain-damage that occurs, but with so much resources in the hands of an-caps we could correct the abnormality/damage.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: MAM on June 06, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
^I agree with MAM. In all honestly, how much of a threat are these idiots? What are they gonna do? Throw Molotov cocktails at us from a distance and use that to claim victory? Yeah. Good luck with that. They don't even have an organized movement.

And we do?

The big problem is this. In a revolutionary situation, it doesn't matter how organized you are or how many guns you have. What matters is meeting the demands of the revolutionary masses.

If the AnCom's pull a Bolshevik (i.e. lie through their teeth till the day is done) they can defeat us easily. And depending on what exact situation the revolution takes place in, we might never have a chance.

And what do you want us to do? Form a paramilitary?


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Hanzo on June 06, 2013, 09:47:17 PM
We have a real-life government that is pillaging and killing us peaceful humans home and abroad, and you're worried about those nerds? Honestly I think they're the very least of anyone's worries. They're more dangerous to themselves than anyone else.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Seth King on June 06, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
We have a real-life government that is pillaging and killing us peaceful humans home and abroad, and you're worried about those nerds? Honestly I think they're the very least of anyone's worries. They're more dangerous to themselves than anyone else.

+1


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 03:59:47 PM
Guys, I'm serious, we need to view leftist anarchists on the same level that we view statists.

Yup, I do consider lefty anarchists to be left statists which of course makes them FAKE anarchists. If you ever want to box a FAKE anarchist in all you have to do is ask them if there is no state then who is going to stop you from owning property and a business and hiring employees and they will never give you a straight answer.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Syock on June 10, 2013, 05:53:29 AM
Guys, I'm serious, we need to view leftist anarchists on the same level that we view statists.

Yup, I do consider lefty anarchists to be left statists which of course makes them FAKE anarchists. If you ever want to box a FAKE anarchist in all you have to do is ask them if there is no state then who is going to stop you from owning property and a business and hiring employees and they will never give you a straight answer.

I find they gladly say that they will stop you with violence and destruction until you have nothing left.  They have a disconnect in their thinking because they are not going out and voting for someone that loses an election. 


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: State-God on June 10, 2013, 07:50:34 AM
^I agree with MAM. In all honestly, how much of a threat are these idiots? What are they gonna do? Throw Molotov cocktails at us from a distance and use that to claim victory? Yeah. Good luck with that. They don't even have an organized movement.

And we do?

The big problem is this. In a revolutionary situation, it doesn't matter how organized you are or how many guns you have. What matters is meeting the demands of the revolutionary masses.

If the AnCom's pull a Bolshevik (i.e. lie through their teeth till the day is done) they can defeat us easily. And depending on what exact situation the revolution takes place in, we might never have a chance.

And what do you want us to do? Form a paramilitary?

Again, no absolute answer. I can't predict the future and guess what sort of environment the revolution will take place in.

In all likeliness, they'll be seen as the nutjobs they are and even if we don't win out, they won't.

But anything's possible.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on June 11, 2013, 06:05:37 PM
We have a real-life government that is pillaging and killing us peaceful humans home and abroad, and you're worried about those nerds? Honestly I think they're the very least of anyone's worries. They're more dangerous to themselves than anyone else.

+1
Exactly. Ancoms are irrelevant.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Krantz on July 24, 2013, 06:22:22 AM
Yes - me too i came to this sad conclusion that cooperation with anarchocommunists is not possible - they simply   and purposely violate NAP.

Generally it isn't anything new - some people are going to do it, and it gives us a right to retaliate - but I'd like to consider some more tactical measures of dealing with it.

We cannot rightfully initiate force against them; we are allowed to respond to their real attacks only - but their open declarations like "I'm going to steal your property" (and kill you if you object?) are very real for me; there's no doubt in my mind that they really mean it - and they actively plot to carry out their plans as soon as opportunity arrives. (This "real threat" factor is present in our current statist legal systems btw. - random shouting "lets kill all gays" may go unpunished, but a "real" plot to kill people will be stopped by police forces). Knowing that an attacker has a big advantage in violent conflict I wonder if we shouldn't strike first then and - when an-cap society eventually does emerge - actively prevent communists of all kind from organizing themselves. Unfortunately this opens the whole Pandora-box of "preemptive wars" and surveillance, so I am not really sure if it is the right solution - but on the other hand if we just look at them building criminal organizations and waiting for the right moment to strike we are doomed.. For now i think we should just take a closer look at the NAP principle and consider a possibility that NAP may not really prevent us from squishing their lethal threats before they are really fulfilled.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Syock on July 24, 2013, 08:07:48 AM
actively prevent communists of all kind from organizing themselves.

Not all of them are violent.  How would you even do a thing like that anyway?


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: AuNero on July 24, 2013, 10:09:57 AM
We already have Voluntaryism (as Seth has said).  

Most human interaction is in line with the NAP.  There are people who violate the NAP and there always will be. Our goals are to decrease the number of violations and to educate people as to what is right and what is wrong so that they will support different social structures and rules.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: Krantz on July 24, 2013, 11:43:11 AM
Not all of them are violent.  How would you even do a thing like that anyway?

Well - for now I'm going to stop carrying "peaceful conversations" with them as soon as they declare their willingness to communize my property..  and this is about the tactical advantage of a first strike I was talking about. Instead of responding to their "bourgeois" - and what not - accusations I will throw a bunch of "thiefs" and "robbers" at them, which should instantly let all the neutral observers know what this all discussion is about.

And if we talk about the future an-cap society, then possibly subscribing to the law that says "any propositions of abolishing the NAP principle are illegal" could save us a lot of headache. We really don't have a whole bunch of regulations (and we probably are quite lucky that after these thousands of years we discovered the NAP in first place), but these few which are the core of a whole system are to important to let them vanish again at some momentary swing of relative powers.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: kunkmiester on July 24, 2013, 02:53:09 PM
Defense doesn't necessarily mean you let them choose the battlefield.  Much like current terrorist groups that make their intentions known, their threats(especially if other signs show more inclination to carry them out) would justify keeping an eye on them.  With solid evidence of intention, you could make an argument that something like buying lots of ammo is violation, but certainly when they load up and move out, they're in the wrong.  At that point, all options come into play.  You pick the battlefield that gives you advantage, defeat them in detail.  With proper intelligence and site selection(can't have the excuse "we were just gonna do some plinking in the desert") it's a slam dunk case.


Title: Re: Why voluntaryism will not work
Post by: MAM on July 25, 2013, 10:21:24 PM
The reality is people fuck when it suits them, trade when it suits them, and kill each other when it suits them.

The point is live your life and put to the sword anyone who tries to oppress you. That is the only way anyone is ever going to be free.

Killers control the world, not pacifists.