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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SinCityVoluntaryist on May 02, 2013, 12:04:14 PM



Title: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on May 02, 2013, 12:04:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwmr1elnxjg


 Oh, shit. As if there isn't enough to be concerned about right now, this happens. The good news is that it's not too strong at all, so there's a high success rate of getting rid of it.  

 Thoughts and prayers to him and his family. Stef is the last person that any of us want to lose. He's too important in this fight.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 01:24:39 PM
That blows.  >:(

It sounds like he's doing mainstream medicine. I know each person has to do what each person has to do, but I would have thought/hoped somebody in his position of influence would go the alternative route.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on May 02, 2013, 01:32:01 PM
^I understand your point, Seth. Stef has dedicated himself to outlining the dangers of psych drugs and their effects upon the human mind. With that in mind, I find it odd that he's not questioning the mainstream route, which we all know is dangerous from the get go.

 If you click on the Youtube video, everyone in the comments section is suggesting that Stef take the alt. route. Same goes for the people over at Facebook. I know Stef is an individual that has the right to choose for himself, but I would like him to understand the dangers of what the conventional has in store.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
What do ya'll ,mean by the alternate route? You seriously aren't suggesting magic crystals and tuning forks right?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on May 02, 2013, 01:48:50 PM
^No, no, no, no. We're not referring to the crystal, new age shit. :P We're talking about supplementation, dietary changes, hemp. Multiple scientific studies have been done looking at links between hemp oil and cancer treatment. Vitamin D has also been found to provide tremendous support for patients dealing with cancer.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 02:22:03 PM
I'm talking about stuff like this:

http://dailyanarchist.com/2011/08/27/cure-for-cancer/


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: State-God on May 02, 2013, 03:56:22 PM
I was with MAM there for a second: "Lolwut?"


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 04:42:29 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 04:53:57 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 04:56:59 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

I'm watching it right now, I'm 25 minutes in. When it's over I'll give my thoughts on it etc...


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 05:14:52 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:17:28 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

Did you watch the movie?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

Alex Jones and Lew Rockwell do a lot of harm.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:30:34 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 06:30:52 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

Did you watch the movie?

After a few minutes I didn't see a reason to continue. But I guess you don't form your opinions on medicine based upon youtube videos neither anyway, right?

(Sorry if I come across as aggressive in this issue. 3 of my grandparents died in cancer, and I know other people too, so I take it quite seriously.)

And I always ask this in such matters: Where is the data?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:34:27 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 

This is essentially an ad hominem attack. Is the FDA bullshit? Yes! Is requiring peer reviewed non anecdotal appeal to emotion evidence bullshit? No.

Is the fact that drugs can't be sold and used with out FDA permission abhorrent? Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything they don't like is a panacea that they are trying to cover up.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:36:25 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

Did you watch the movie?

After a few minutes I didn't see a reason to continue. But I guess you don't form your opinions on medicine based upon youtube videos neither anyway, right?

(Sorry if I come across as aggressive in this issue. 3 of my grandparents died in cancer, and I know other people too, so I take it quite seriously.)

And I always ask this in such matters: Where is the data?

For somebody who lost three family members to cancer it seems like you should keep an open mind about things things and not judge a movie based on it's first few minutes. Millions of people die every year from cancer and the vast majority of them go the statist route. So, really, I can't see how anybody can defend the statist pharmaceutical industry.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 06:39:17 PM

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.
 

Why do you equate state medicine with science? There's a lot of corruption obviously in FDA and similar institutions, and in scientific circles too, but that doesn't change the importance of the scientific method. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy and not everything is suppressed by the state. Where are the publications, where is the data?

My problem is not with skepticism, on the contrary, with the LACK OF skepticism when it comes to alternative medicine, and jumping on any alternative bandwagon just because it goes against corporate medicine.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:40:30 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 

This is essentially an ad hominem attack. Is the FDA bullshit? Yes! Is requiring peer reviewed non anecdotal appeal to emotion evidence bullshit? No.

Is the fact that drugs can't be sold and used with out FDA permission abhorrent? Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything they don't like is a panacea that they are trying to cover up.

Did you finished the entire movie?

Peer review is great, so long as your peers aren't shills for the state. You have the vast majority of doctors who are essentially bought and paid for by the AMA, so seeking their review doesn't mean shit to me.



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:45:34 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

Did you watch the movie?

After a few minutes I didn't see a reason to continue. But I guess you don't form your opinions on medicine based upon youtube videos neither anyway, right?

(Sorry if I come across as aggressive in this issue. 3 of my grandparents died in cancer, and I know other people too, so I take it quite seriously.)

And I always ask this in such matters: Where is the data?

For somebody who lost three family members to cancer it seems like you should keep an open mind about things things and not judge a movie based on it's first few minutes. Millions of people die every year from cancer and the vast majority of them go the statist route. So, really, I can't see how anybody can defend the statist pharmaceutical industry.

Both my grandmas were killed by cancer as well. The first was diagnosed early, it was  Multiple Myeloma  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_myeloma) and she lived for ten years with the conventional treatment. My other grandma was killed by lung cancer.

People claim the prayers heal and they also claim that magic works, would it be nice if that was true? Yes, but that doesn't mean I believe it. Just because something is convenient doesn't make it true. Over the years this Burzynski fellow has submitted around 60 Phase II trails and 1 Phase III trail, none of the results have been published.

Just because the FDA is evil and wants peer reviewed research doesn't mean that the scientific method is statist, rigged, doesn't work, and is evil.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 06:46:59 PM

For somebody who lost three family members to cancer it seems like you should keep an open mind about things things and not judge a movie based on it's first few minutes. Millions of people die every year from cancer and the vast majority of them go the statist route. So, really, I can't see how anybody can defend the statist pharmaceutical industry.

As I said, I don't defend the statist pharmaceutical industry, I defend the scientific method of aquiring knowledge.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:47:13 PM

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.
 

Why do you equate state medicine with science? There's a lot of corruption obviously in FDA and similar institutions, and in scientific circles too, but that doesn't change the importance of the scientific method. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy and not everything is suppressed by the state. Where are the publications, where is the data?

My problem is not with skepticism, on the contrary, with the LACK OF skepticism when it comes to alternative medicine, and jumping on any alternative bandwagon just because it goes against corporate medicine.

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:47:38 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 

This is essentially an ad hominem attack. Is the FDA bullshit? Yes! Is requiring peer reviewed non anecdotal appeal to emotion evidence bullshit? No.

Is the fact that drugs can't be sold and used with out FDA permission abhorrent? Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything they don't like is a panacea that they are trying to cover up.

Did you finished the entire movie?

Peer review is great, so long as your peers aren't shills for the state. You have the vast majority of doctors who are essentially bought and paid for by the AMA, so seeking their review doesn't mean shit to me.



Yes I finished the entire movie, and I believe that there is a medical industrial complex just like I believe there is a military industrial complex.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean that science doesn't work.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 06:51:45 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 

This is essentially an ad hominem attack. Is the FDA bullshit? Yes! Is requiring peer reviewed non anecdotal appeal to emotion evidence bullshit? No.

Is the fact that drugs can't be sold and used with out FDA permission abhorrent? Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything they don't like is a panacea that they are trying to cover up.

Did you finished the entire movie?

Peer review is great, so long as your peers aren't shills for the state. You have the vast majority of doctors who are essentially bought and paid for by the AMA, so seeking their review doesn't mean shit to me.



Yes I finished the entire movie, and I believe that there is a medical industrial complex just like I believe there is a military industrial complex.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean that science doesn't work.

Did the movie at any point in time say that science doesn't work? I'm failing to see anywhere in this thread where I said that science doesn't work. Why would you mention that?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:52:50 PM

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.
 

Why do you equate state medicine with science? There's a lot of corruption obviously in FDA and similar institutions, and in scientific circles too, but that doesn't change the importance of the scientific method. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy and not everything is suppressed by the state. Where are the publications, where is the data?

My problem is not with skepticism, on the contrary, with the LACK OF skepticism when it comes to alternative medicine, and jumping on any alternative bandwagon just because it goes against corporate medicine.

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.

Replace statist with Christian, or Muslim, and we have a very interesting argument wouldn't you say?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 06:55:50 PM
Well I'm not an expert either, but there are some red flags that I see immediately with this treatment...

I did a quick search and found that the presence of peer review is lacking. I'm weary...



Watch the movie before you judge.

There's no scientific evidence that Burzynski's method works. If it does, why hasn't he published the results of his clinical trials? Or provided other real evidence, other than an emotional movie with anecdotes?

When I heard about Stefan's condition, I was really sad. But when I read all the comments advocating some form of alternative "medicine", I got really angry. Recommending unscientific bullshit for sick people is disgusting, and it costs lives. I'm surprised his audience doesn't know any better...

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.

 

This is essentially an ad hominem attack. Is the FDA bullshit? Yes! Is requiring peer reviewed non anecdotal appeal to emotion evidence bullshit? No.

Is the fact that drugs can't be sold and used with out FDA permission abhorrent? Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything they don't like is a panacea that they are trying to cover up.

Did you finished the entire movie?

Peer review is great, so long as your peers aren't shills for the state. You have the vast majority of doctors who are essentially bought and paid for by the AMA, so seeking their review doesn't mean shit to me.



Yes I finished the entire movie, and I believe that there is a medical industrial complex just like I believe there is a military industrial complex.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean that science doesn't work.

Did the movie at any point in time say that science doesn't work? I'm failing to see anywhere in this thread where I said that science doesn't work. Why would you mention that?

That movie consisted of alot of apeal to emotion alot of anecedotes and alot of blaming the FDA for desiring that procedures be followed. I find it very interesting that people haven't been able to replicate the result the doctor is claiming. We could replace this doctor fellow with Tesla, or the cold fusion cats and it would be the same thing. Except not as emotionally charged.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 07:02:15 PM
Don't mistake my desire for research to be a defence of the FDA or the corporations. Personally I don't dig on alot of Western Medicine because it hasn't existed long enough and been tested enough to suit my tastes.

And I'm not even saying that this guy should be prevented from practising medicine. What I am saying is that I don't believe that he has a magic cure all for cancer. For a number of reasons that I could iterate if you desire.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 07:08:44 PM

I still want you to answer the question above, but I have to say this sort of response really incenses me.

I don't understand how anarchists can see just how corrupt state schools, law, roads etc. are, but think that state medicine is somehow exempt from corruption, and anything that doesn't suck up to corporate medicine is somehow unscientific.

It's the same baseless attack that Global Warming alarmists use to smear skeptics. It's also really pathetic.
 

Why do you equate state medicine with science? There's a lot of corruption obviously in FDA and similar institutions, and in scientific circles too, but that doesn't change the importance of the scientific method. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy and not everything is suppressed by the state. Where are the publications, where is the data?

My problem is not with skepticism, on the contrary, with the LACK OF skepticism when it comes to alternative medicine, and jumping on any alternative bandwagon just because it goes against corporate medicine.

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.

Replace statist with Christian, or Muslim, and we have a very interesting argument wouldn't you say?

There aren't very many good scientists. A lot of people have this attitude that unless you get a stipend from the state that you can't have pure research. It's a load of shit!

The best scientists are the ones who want to learn the truth. That's it! People who just want to discover the ways of the universe. Usually they are trying to make the world a better place by providing real value, and discovery gets in the way.

Lots of times people stumble upon something that works. At first they may not understand how or why it works, but they keep doing it because it works, and eventually they discover why it works.

That's pretty much been medicine for a long time. They discover something that works, they keep doing it, only later to understand WHY it works.

Medicine usually goes a little something like this:

"Hey, if you rub that bush on your rash it will make it feel better."

"Oh, why is that?"

"I don't know yet, but it works for me."

Years later the chemists find what's in the bush and discover why it works.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's voodoo science. It just means we haven't learned the reasoning for something yet.

If you have a doctor that is having great success you don't tell him he's a quack unless you can do better. Period. You get the fuck out of his way and let the market decide.

It's like Rearden Metal. The state and all of the crony scientists saying it's not safe because it hasn't been tested. As if they would have a fucking clue how to better test it!!!


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 07:21:52 PM

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.

Strawman after strawman dude, you can do better than that.
I don't know why you keep talking about the state.

Burzynski has been around for 30+ years, and he hasn't provided real evidence for his thing. Yet you support him. Why? How can you say that you're all about the scientific method?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 07:24:13 PM

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.

Strawman after strawman dude, you can do better than that.
I don't know why you keep talking about the state.

Burzynski has been around for 30+ years, and he hasn't provided real evidence for his thing. Yet you support him. Why? How can you say that you're all about the scientific method?

So, people being healed isn't real evidence enough for you?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
And besides, you started off by ragging on people for recommending Molyneux look into alternative "medicine."

You basically derided anything that isn't state sanctioned, corporate approved.

I think a person is nuts if they DON'T look for alternatives to state medicine.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 07:33:46 PM
Quote
There aren't very many good scientists. A lot of people have this attitude that unless you get a stipend from the state that you can't have pure research. It's a load of shit!
When I was in college, I wrote a paper where i pointed out that state sponsored research wasn't pure research, and in fact the State would desire weapons research over other things because that's what the State wants. Then I read Atlas Shrugged.

Quote
The best scientists are the ones who want to learn the truth. That's it! People who just want to discover the ways of the universe. Usually they are trying to make the world a better place by providing real value, and discovery gets in the way.
In this regard I'm a Kopimist.

Quote
That's pretty much been medicine for a long time. They discover something that works, they keep doing it, only later to understand WHY it works.
I'm not asking for why it works, I'm asking for non anecdotal evidence that it works.

Quote
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's voodoo science. It just means we haven't learned the reasoning for something yet.
Just because you don't understand how something could work, doesn't mean that it does. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I think it's voodoo science. People have heard me call cars magic. I don't literally think it's magic but I don't know how or why it works. Electricity is the same way, I don't understand how electricity works, and I don't think it's voodoo science either. Because there's been alot of peer reviewed non anecdotal evidence put out there. There is alot of tech that supports it. There have been experiments and they've been published.

Quote
If you have a doctor that is having great success you don't tell him he's a quack unless you can do better. Period. You get the fuck out of his way and let the market decide.
The question is, is he having success? Lots of appeal to emotion and anecdotes going on, yet his claims are not substantiated and in 30 years he hasn't bothered to publish the results of his own studies... While lack of evidence isn't evidence of absence it sure is suggestive of it. I'm all for letting the market decide, I'm also for science.

Quote
It's like Rearden Metal. The state and all of the crony scientists saying it's not safe because it hasn't been tested. As if they would have a fucking clue how to better test it!!!
Just because it hasn't been tested doesn't mean it's not safe. But that also doesn't mean that it IS safe.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 07:38:22 PM
And besides, you started off by ragging on people for recommending Molyneux look into alternative "medicine."

You basically derided anything that isn't state sanctioned, corporate approved.

I think a person is nuts if they DON'T look for alternatives to state medicine.

I wasn't enraged. However in my experience "alternative medicine" is code for bullshit. While I might not like Molyneux even a little bit, I don't want him to die, as he happens to be one of the few people I don't like that isn't a Statist piece of shit.

I derided anything that wasn't scientifically tested, there is alot of overlap though, that doesn't mean I support the State.

I think a person is nuts if they believe everything they hear on the basis of it NOT being backed by the State, and not by the merit of the evidence they are presented with.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 07:40:29 PM
There's a reason why there is an appeal to emotion. The documentary wouldn't appeal to anybody if it was heavily scientific and only 5 people could understand it.

It was meant to show the world that IT'S WRONG for the government to fuck somebody over like the FDA did. That's it.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 07:41:45 PM
And besides, you started off by ragging on people for recommending Molyneux look into alternative "medicine."

You basically derided anything that isn't state sanctioned, corporate approved.

I think a person is nuts if they DON'T look for alternatives to state medicine.

I wasn't enraged. However in my experience "alternative medicine" is code for bullshit. While I might not like Molyneux even a little bit, I don't want him to die, as he happens to be one of the few people I don't like that isn't a Statist piece of shit.

I derided anything that wasn't scientifically tested, there is alot of overlap though, that doesn't mean I support the State.

I think a person is nuts if they believe everything they hear on the basis of it NOT being backed by the State, and not by the merit of the evidence they are presented with.

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about janos. But you also poked fun of alternative medicine, which I think is extremely narrow minded.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 07:53:20 PM
And besides, you started off by ragging on people for recommending Molyneux look into alternative "medicine."

You basically derided anything that isn't state sanctioned, corporate approved.

I think a person is nuts if they DON'T look for alternatives to state medicine.

I wasn't enraged. However in my experience "alternative medicine" is code for bullshit. While I might not like Molyneux even a little bit, I don't want him to die, as he happens to be one of the few people I don't like that isn't a Statist piece of shit.

I derided anything that wasn't scientifically tested, there is alot of overlap though, that doesn't mean I support the State.

I think a person is nuts if they believe everything they hear on the basis of it NOT being backed by the State, and not by the merit of the evidence they are presented with.

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about janos. But you also poked fun of alternative medicine, which I think is extremely narrow minded.

There are people who literally claim that magic crystals and tuning forks have medicinal value. They also claim that Dolphins cure cancer... Are seriously going to say that it's narrow minded of me to call that bullshit, and make fun of it?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 07:57:14 PM
What irks me the most about this is the idea that rational medicine is part of a conspiracy...

Which is tied into the whole "Western Medicine just wants to keep you sick man! Because of the profit motive man!" attitude.

All of which is quite frankly bullshit, and not worthy of respect.

It's all part of the same fallacy that companies have an incentive to produce crappy products, I swear it reminds me of the broken window fallacy.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 08:03:56 PM

I'm all about the scientific method. I studied Physics at one of the top ten schools in the nation. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of scientists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are trapped in a very statist paradigm. You think somebody who buys into the myths of the state is going to be a good scientist? I'd say it's very unlikely! Most scientists aren't worth their weight in sand. I know that may come as a great disappointment to you.

Strawman after strawman dude, you can do better than that.
I don't know why you keep talking about the state.

Burzynski has been around for 30+ years, and he hasn't provided real evidence for his thing. Yet you support him. Why? How can you say that you're all about the scientific method?

So, people being healed isn't real evidence enough for you?

"Healed" yes, getting better, no.

Next time you get the cold, dance for 11 minutes every day. A few days later you'll get better. Did the dancing heal you? No. Did you get better? Yes. Is that proof of dancing curing common cold? No. It happens relatively rarely with a deadly cancer, but it happens. Dead people don't tell stories. And scammers capitalize on that.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 02, 2013, 08:11:37 PM
And besides, you started off by ragging on people for recommending Molyneux look into alternative "medicine."

You basically derided anything that isn't state sanctioned, corporate approved.

I think a person is nuts if they DON'T look for alternatives to state medicine.

By alternative I didn't mean "isn't state sanctioned", but "not approved by the scientific consensus". Yes I know, the latter is not always right either, that's why I usually look at the data too.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 08:34:20 PM
There's a reason why there is an appeal to emotion. The documentary wouldn't appeal to anybody if it was heavily scientific and only 5 people could understand it.

It was meant to show the world that IT'S WRONG for the government to fuck somebody over like the FDA did. That's it.

The FDA fucking people over is wrong. That doesn't mean that the guy who got fucked is right, and not scamming people.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 08:36:57 PM
There's a reason why there is an appeal to emotion. The documentary wouldn't appeal to anybody if it was heavily scientific and only 5 people could understand it.

It was meant to show the world that IT'S WRONG for the government to fuck somebody over like the FDA did. That's it.

The FDA fucking people over is wrong. That doesn't mean that the guy who got fucked is right, and not scamming people.

Containing actual evidence not appeals to emotion, and being above people's heads are not the same thing. Is an argument only valid if it contains an ad hominem? The presence of logical fallacies only weakens a case it doesn't strengthen it.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 08:38:59 PM
When people say "alternative medicine" they aren't talking about "medicine not based on science" or "medicine not based on reason."

To jump to that conclusion is like saying I want alternative law and you immediately jumping to the conclusion that I want "law of the jungle" or "Sharia law."

That's your hangup, not mine. It's not my fault you don't have any imagination other than state propaganda.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Me: "I'm interested in alternatives to state/corporate fascist medicine."

You: "You want unscientific and illogical medicine!!!"

Me:  ???


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 09:49:27 PM
Me: "I'm interested in alternatives to state/corporate fascist medicine."

You: "You want unscientific and illogical medicine!!!"

Me:  ???

If alternative medicine worked it would be called.... wait for it..... medicine.

If alternative science worked it would be called.... wait for it.... science.

All I'm asking is for is the findings of his trails published in a scientific journal. That's all, but to you the only thing that it has going for it is the appeal to emotion, and the fact that the State doesn't like it and it's enough.

The main argument that you seem to be making is that the State doesn't like it so it must be legitimate. Am I wrong? I hope so...

Well the State doesn't like murderers (unless they work for the state) I suppose to you that's an argument for non state sanctioned murderers.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 09:59:14 PM
Do you also believe in the perpetual motion machine? And Tesla's "free" energy for the world? And that the State shut it down?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 10:16:04 PM
Me: I want evidence that this shit actually works.

You: You're just a shill for the State!!!!!

Me: Really what happened to rational discourse?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 02, 2013, 10:30:10 PM
I never said that just because the state dislikes it means it must be good. I merely said that just because it's alternative to state medicine doesn't mean it's anti-science or anti-reason.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 02, 2013, 10:55:38 PM
I never said that just because the state dislikes it means it must be good. I merely said that just because it's alternative to state medicine doesn't mean it's anti-science or anti-reason.

I never said that either. I did however say that stuff lacking scientific evidence was not scientific.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: janos on May 03, 2013, 07:47:06 AM
When people say "alternative medicine" they aren't talking about "medicine not based on science" or "medicine not based on reason."

To jump to that conclusion is like saying I want alternative law and you immediately jumping to the conclusion that I want "law of the jungle" or "Sharia law."

That's your hangup, not mine. It's not my fault you don't have any imagination other than state propaganda.

Nonsense. In this thread you and somebody else talked about these things: Burzynski, Vitamin D, hemp, dietary changes; none of them are scientifically proven to cure cancer and that has nothing to do with what the state approves.

And if I look at the facebook comments, it's just more of the same.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: AuNero on May 03, 2013, 08:53:38 AM
I worked at one of the largest law firms in the country as a legal assistant.  One of our clients was Bristol-Myers Squibb.  I attended a meeting once where one of the partners was explaining to the associates how to negotiate clinical trial agreements between BMS and doctors who performed the drug trials. 

He told them "never negotiate on who owns the data.  BMS always owns the data or the deal is off."  One attorney ask why.  The partner replied, "because if the results show that the drug doesn't work, BMS withholds those results from the FDA."

Medical science is quackery. 

I've been studying alternative medicine for 20 years.  In my opinion the most effective anti-cancer treatment is ozone therapy.  Google it.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on May 03, 2013, 01:25:44 PM
MAM, Seth, janos, I think three three of you need to chill the FUCK OUT!!! Yes Cancer is an emotionally charged issue. I know that from experience with having had several family members of varying emotional closeness die of cancer and several others have cancer and make it through if only by the skin of their teeth. However the three of you, need to stop misunderstanding each other. MAM, janos, just because Seth is interested in alternatives to the FDA approved treatments, does not mean he is a dumb ass who automatically and enthusiastically accepts anything that isn't State-sanctioned and "alternative".

Seth, just because MAM, janos, and myself (I'm including myself with them) want actual hard-evidence this works, does not mean we are shills for Big Pharma who despise anything that ISN'T State-sanctioned when it comes to medicine, and vociferously deny any corruption, or even potential for corruption of corporate medicine. We just want hard evidence that this works because otherwise that means the guy marketing it is either a dumb ass or a scam artist who is for all intents and purposes convincing someone stranded in the Mojave Desert that they don't need water, and water is actually bad for them...in which case he is a complete and utter asshole. And yes that applies to both the "alternative medicine" advocates and the "corporate medicine" advocates, and their distibutors/producers, etc.

I could be wrong, but it seems to be the three of you are becoming too emotionally invested in this which is compromising the cold, detached, logic of a debate which is NOT what we need with the gov't breathing on our backs. I suggest you take a break of a few days from this....discussion and then if you want, come back to it when cooler heads prevail.



P.S. Sorry if I offend any of you three for seeming to butt into a discussion I wasn't in, but I had originally planned on commenting when I read the beginning of the debate but, when I saw the "deterioration" of that debate, I thought I'd at least offer a suggestion.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 03, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
AgoristTeen I appreciate the butt end, and the suggestion. However I am not angry. But like you said I want evidence. This individual Burzynski has submitted alot of trails:
Quote
He told them "never negotiate on who owns the data.  BMS always owns the data or the deal is off."  One attorney ask why.  The partner replied, "because if the results show that the drug doesn't work, BMS withholds those results from the FDA."

And this is exactly what I think he's doing.

NO I think there is corruption at every level of this society. I want substantiated reviewed results, I want people to be able to replicate the results. I want evidence from more than one source that this actually works.

Am I offended that this guys treatment is derived from urine, like some people are? NOPE I don't care where it comes from. If this shit is real then this guy has single handedly discovered a panacea for cancer. Which makes him a baddass. However I don't think he's a lone genius that has found the "cure" for cancer. I think he's scamming people, and if I'm right THAT pissees me off, however I look forward to the day that I am proven wrong and this guy is shone  as the genius that ended cancer; that people seem to think he is.

He's had 40 years, 40 years to publish and have reviewed his studies....



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: dpalme on May 03, 2013, 05:23:44 PM
Pretty sucky. I'm not the biggest fan of Steph, but it still sucks to have something like that happen. To ANYONE. Especially one in the movement.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 03, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
AgoristTeen I appreciate the butt end, and the suggestion. However I am not angry. But like you said I want evidence. This individual Burzynski has submitted alot of trails:
Quote
He told them "never negotiate on who owns the data.  BMS always owns the data or the deal is off."  One attorney ask why.  The partner replied, "because if the results show that the drug doesn't work, BMS withholds those results from the FDA."

And this is exactly what I think he's doing.

NO I think there is corruption at every level of this society. I want substantiated reviewed results, I want people to be able to replicate the results. I want evidence from more than one source that this actually works.

Am I offended that this guys treatment is derived from urine, like some people are? NOPE I don't care where it comes from. If this shit is real then this guy has single handedly discovered a panacea for cancer. Which makes him a baddass. However I don't think he's a lone genius that has found the "cure" for cancer. I think he's scamming people, and if I'm right THAT pissees me off, however I look forward to the day that I am proven wrong and this guy is shone  as the genius that ended cancer; that people seem to think he is.

He's had 40 years, 40 years to publish and have reviewed his studies....



This is a totally different debate from the one we were having earlier, which was about alternatives medicines in general, but you keep saying Dr. Burzynski has refused to publish his work. Were are you getting that from?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 03, 2013, 07:52:53 PM
AgoristTeen I appreciate the butt end, and the suggestion. However I am not angry. But like you said I want evidence. This individual Burzynski has submitted alot of trails:
Quote
He told them "never negotiate on who owns the data.  BMS always owns the data or the deal is off."  One attorney ask why.  The partner replied, "because if the results show that the drug doesn't work, BMS withholds those results from the FDA."

And this is exactly what I think he's doing.

NO I think there is corruption at every level of this society. I want substantiated reviewed results, I want people to be able to replicate the results. I want evidence from more than one source that this actually works.

Am I offended that this guys treatment is derived from urine, like some people are? NOPE I don't care where it comes from. If this shit is real then this guy has single handedly discovered a panacea for cancer. Which makes him a baddass. However I don't think he's a lone genius that has found the "cure" for cancer. I think he's scamming people, and if I'm right THAT pissees me off, however I look forward to the day that I am proven wrong and this guy is shone  as the genius that ended cancer; that people seem to think he is.

He's had 40 years, 40 years to publish and have reviewed his studies....



This is a totally different debate from the one we were having earlier, which was about alternatives medicines in general, but you keep saying Dr. Burzynski has refused to publish his work. Were are you getting that from?

I searched the internet.

There's alot of stuff out there. What bugs me the most however is the fact that no one has been able to replicate the claims that this guy is making!

Don't get me wrong I would fucking love it if this guy were legit. But I question that.



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Tear-Down-the-Wall on May 03, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
Add some carrots and cabbage and you got a nice stew goin'.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 03, 2013, 09:01:23 PM
Seth, when I hear "alternative medicine" it has always been an alternative to scientific medicine that people are talking about.

I don't care who or what comes up with something, they don't have to be backed by the State and it doesn't have to be backed by a corporation. It does however have to be supported by science.

No science equals no go in my book.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 03, 2013, 10:20:12 PM
Seth, when I hear "alternative medicine" it has always been an alternative to scientific medicine that people are talking about.

I don't care who or what comes up with something, they don't have to be backed by the State and it doesn't have to be backed by a corporation. It does however have to be supported by science.

No science equals no go in my book.

I couldn't agree more. What I disagree with is typecasting all alternative medicine into the voodoo camp.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: SinCityVoluntaryist on May 03, 2013, 10:40:59 PM
"He's had 40 years, 40 years to publish and have reviewed his studies...."

 When you begin to understand the interests that influence government, you'll start to answer that question, MAM.

  When the FDA says that something is good for you, that generally means it can harm you.

 


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 04, 2013, 12:37:55 AM
"He's had 40 years, 40 years to publish and have reviewed his studies...."

 When you begin to understand the interests that influence government, you'll start to answer that question, MAM.

  When the FDA says that something is good for you, that generally means it can harm you.

 

Are you saying that the government is censoring all data that can be published? Are you saying that the guy can't get his shit published in journals because of some conspiracy?

No offence but this kinda reeks of Alex Jones....


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 04, 2013, 01:37:21 AM
You still haven't answered my question. Where are you getting the information that Dr. Burzynski hasn't published his research or data?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 04, 2013, 05:18:25 AM
You still haven't answered my question. Where are you getting the information that Dr. Burzynski hasn't published his research or data?


I don't consider self publish to be evidence.

While technically Burzynski has published postive results the publishings are in house and so I don't consider them evidence.

According to the American Cancer Society:
Quote
While many articles have been published and dozens of clinical trials against many types of cancer have been ongoing at Dr. Burzynski's clinic for several years, there have not been any results of randomized controlled trials—the type of study that is required to prove that a new anti-cancer drug works – published in peer-reviewed medical journals.
and
Quote
The OTA report criticized Burzynski's research process and noted that his definitions of advanced cancer and of complete and partial cancer remission were not used in accordance with generally accepted definitions. One example they pointed to was a patient said to have had a complete remission after treatment with antineoplastons. The report concluded that this claim was inappropriate because the cancer had been removed by surgery before the antineoplaston treatment was started

Also:
Quote
In 1982, consultants to the Ontario (Canada) Ministry of Health visited Burzynski's clinic and reviewed records of twelve patients selected by Burzynski from among the thousands he had treated. According to the OTA report, the Canadian doctors "found no examples of objective response to Antineoplastons." In 1985, the Canadian Bureau of Prescription Drugs examined the records of Canadian doctors who had treated patients at Dr. Burzynski's clinic in Houston. Of 36 patients, 32 had died without showing signs of improvement. Of the remaining 4, 1 patient died after slight improvement, while 1 patient died after stabilizing for a year. The 2 remaining patients had widespread cancer.

According to: Phase II Study of Antineoplastons A10 (NSC 648539) and AS2-1 (NSC 620261) in Patients With Recurrent Glioma

Quote
Nine patients were treated, in six of whom the treatment response was assessable in accordance with protocol stipulations. No patient demonstrated tumor regression. Reversible grade 2 or 3 neurocortical toxicity, consisting of transient somnolence, confusion, and exacerbation of an underlying seizure disorder, was noted in five patients.
and
Quote
Conclusion

Although we could not confirm any tumor regression in patients in this study, the small sample size precludes definitive conclusions about treatment efficacy. Antineoplaston-related toxicity was acceptable in most patients with appropriate dose modification, although severe neurocortical toxicity may occur. Steady-state plasma concentrations of phenylacetate with use of A10 and AS2-1 were similar to those reported with use of similar doses of phenylacetate alone.




Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on May 04, 2013, 12:31:16 PM
What I disagree with is typecasting all alternative medicine into the voodoo camp.
Could you illustrate with some python code?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on May 04, 2013, 12:46:01 PM
My take on this whole thread (which has nothing to do with Stef):
When I hear alternative medicine, like MAM, I do think of people putting snails on their faces.
Seth's rebuttal is legit, that it's my own problem. But it's based on experience. I can list dozens of bullshit alternative medicine hoaxes, and I can think of less than a handful of useful non-bogus contributions... Of course, that doesn't prove that it's all wrong. But it gives me reason to pause and ask for hard, peer-reviewed, repeatable studies.
Anyone who claims to have cured cancer is almost certainly a con artist. Regardless of the influence that powerful organizations have on research and treatment, if someone had the cure, and their results were published, someone would have reproduced the results. SOMEONE else. No video is a substitute for that.




Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 04, 2013, 01:34:42 PM
MAM,

#1 can you give me the link where you found those quotes?

#2 you really think the ACS is an unbiased source? That's like asking the U.N. to determine whether or not guns are a legitimate tool for self-protection.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 04, 2013, 03:47:16 PM
MAM,

#1 can you give me the link where you found those quotes?

#2 you really think the ACS is an unbiased source? That's like asking the U.N. to determine whether or not guns are a legitimate tool for self-protection.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/pharmacologicalandbiologicaltreatment/antineoplaston-therapy

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025619611638354

I knew you were going to ask if I thought that the ACS is an unbiased source, while they may not be unbiased I'm not really looking for their opinion I'm looking for peer reviewed studies, I think the ACS can be trusted to say whether or not there are peer reviewed papers out there.

Also through my research into this matter I found an article claiming that this guy's antineoplaston treatment was actually a known form of chemotherapy and that it had known side affects I'll see if I can find it again.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 04, 2013, 05:53:30 PM
Those articles didn't really say a whole lot.

It's funny though, how they'll describe the side effects of his treatment "range from mild to serious, including fatigue (extreme tiredness), anemia (low red blood cell counts), headaches, numbness, skin rash, swelling of the hands and face, chills, fever, dizziness, changes in blood pressure, unpleasant body odor during treatment, and sleepiness."

You ought to read the side effects of chemotherapy.

Also, you should do some research on the success rate of chemotherapy and radiation therapy. Hint, it's pretty fucking low.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 04, 2013, 05:54:38 PM
In other words, the "medical" community loves to hold extremely high standards for people who practice medicine in ways they are threatened by. But they don't even come close to living up to their own standards. Typical statists.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 04, 2013, 08:07:44 PM
Those articles didn't really say a whole lot.

It's funny though, how they'll describe the side effects of his treatment "range from mild to serious, including fatigue (extreme tiredness), anemia (low red blood cell counts), headaches, numbness, skin rash, swelling of the hands and face, chills, fever, dizziness, changes in blood pressure, unpleasant body odor during treatment, and sleepiness."

You ought to read the side effects of chemotherapy.

Also, you should do some research on the success rate of chemotherapy and radiation therapy. Hint, it's pretty fucking low.

I'm aware of the side effects of chemo therapy I've witnessed them first hand. If you read the labels on any medication it has similar disclaimers.

They don't hold different standards for their medicine than for "alternative" medicine again the only difference is one has mountains of peer reviewed evidence and the other doesn't.

Do you have an argument any argument at all other than their Statists so their obviously lieing, which is a collectivist notion and highly disappointing to see coming from a supposed individualist.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on May 04, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
I'm not even saying they're lying. I'm just telling you their paradigm is not that of truth. The medical industrial complex is just as perverted as the military industrial complex. Are the people in the military industrial complex lying? No, their paradigm is just horribly statist and not good for the average person.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on May 04, 2013, 11:33:51 PM
I'm not even saying they're lying. I'm just telling you their paradigm is not that of truth. The medical industrial complex is just as perverted as the military industrial complex. Are the people in the military industrial complex lying? No, their paradigm is just horribly statist and not good for the average person.

I can agree to that.

Any time coercion enters the equation you are guaranteed that the result is going to be sub par.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 06, 2013, 02:51:48 PM
Our family doctor when I was a child was an MD and Osteopath but used an assortment of alternate techniques to diagnose and treat his patients. After years of being in business a bunch of armed AMA thugs appeared and stole all of his equipment. He went through a long trial and was lucky to stay out of a cage but it cost him a fortune to defend himself and the equipment they stole was never returned.

The AMA and FDA exist to protect the interests of the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex and if you dare stick your neck out and do or say anything outside the status quo then you will be severely reprimanded and threatened, or far worse...and that includes publishing "peer reviews" for alternate therapies...and especially for therapies that can't be patented. My point here is that I still find it astonishing to encounter those who rail against the evils of statism and just really seem to "get it", yet still embrace one of the states most powerful pillars of domination and control because "the science is irrefutable" - as if these creeps have a shred of integrity when it comes to science.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 06, 2013, 03:39:46 PM
Our family doctor when I was a child was an MD and Osteopath but used an assortment of alternate techniques to diagnose and treat his patients. After years of being in business a bunch of armed AMA thugs appeared and stole all of his equipment. He went through a long trial and was lucky to stay out of a cage but it cost him a fortune to defend himself and the equipment they stole was never returned.

The AMA and FDA exist to protect the interests of the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex and if you dare stick your neck out and do or say anything outside the status quo then you will be severely reprimanded and threatened, or far worse...and that includes publishing "peer reviews" for alternate therapies...and especially for therapies that can't be patented. My point here is that I still find it astonishing to encounter those who rail against the evils of statism and just really seem to "get it", yet still embrace one of the states most powerful pillars of domination and control because "the science is irrefutable" - as if these creeps have a shred of integrity when it comes to science.

Do you really think that >90% of d by doctors and scientists and are in on some conspiracy? I find the idea ridiculous.

I'm not arguing for the FDA or the AMA or whatever I'm arguing for evidence. The FDA is fucking evil that doesn't make evidence a bad idea.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on June 06, 2013, 03:56:20 PM
Our family doctor when I was a child was an MD and Osteopath but used an assortment of alternate techniques to diagnose and treat his patients. After years of being in business a bunch of armed AMA thugs appeared and stole all of his equipment. He went through a long trial and was lucky to stay out of a cage but it cost him a fortune to defend himself and the equipment they stole was never returned.

The AMA and FDA exist to protect the interests of the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex and if you dare stick your neck out and do or say anything outside the status quo then you will be severely reprimanded and threatened, or far worse...and that includes publishing "peer reviews" for alternate therapies...and especially for therapies that can't be patented. My point here is that I still find it astonishing to encounter those who rail against the evils of statism and just really seem to "get it", yet still embrace one of the states most powerful pillars of domination and control because "the science is irrefutable" - as if these creeps have a shred of integrity when it comes to science.

Do you really think that >90% of d by doctors and scientists and are in on some conspiracy? I find the idea ridiculous.

I'm not arguing for the FDA or the AMA or whatever I'm arguing for evidence. The FDA is fucking evil that doesn't make evidence a bad idea.

You're not getting it. The state destroys evidence and puts a chilling effect on those who would publish scientific evidence that threatens the corporate/state hegemony.

This is really an easy one, MAM, I don't know why you're struggling so much.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on June 06, 2013, 04:04:39 PM
Imagine going back in time a few hundred years when everybody thought the world was flat.

And then some guy comes along and says "look everybody! I've got evidence that the world is round and not the center of the universe!"

And then the church throws that guy in prison and makes him retract his former statements and proclaim that there is no evidence that the world is round.

And then people like you, MAM, parroting the church's line, "I don't see any evidence that the world is round."

Are all of the doctors a part of some conspiracy? Come on! They're just a bunch of dupes who joined the guild.

It's all about using the state to protect the guild and squash competition. Very few people, including many libertarians, apparently, see it for what it really is.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 06, 2013, 05:01:24 PM
Quote
Do you really think that >90% of d by doctors and scientists and are in on some conspiracy? I find the idea ridiculous.

I'm not arguing for the FDA or the AMA or whatever I'm arguing for evidence. The FDA is fucking evil that doesn't make evidence a bad idea.

The evidence is in how many have cured themselves of cancer without subjecting themselves to horrible toxins and radiation first that shut down their immune systems. One such treatment uses massive doses of ascorbic acid delivered via IV. The only side effect for some is slight dizziness when first standing up after the treatment and the cost is cheap. Of course there are many other effective therapies too.

No I don't think 90% of doctors and scientists "are in on some conspiracy" but doctors spend years getting brainwashed in medical school to accept that allopathy  (i.e. treat symptoms instead of dealing with the cause) is how to treat humans, hence the massive drug industry. The scientists? Well, most of them either work within the pharmaceutical industry and if not they are still funded by the state and/or pharmaceutical industry and have families to support, mortgages, car payments, kids college tuitions, etc., etc. and certainly don't want to jeopardize their cushy fat-ass lifestyles. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to wrap your mind around since we've all seen how many "scientists" go right along with "climate change" hoax which is nothing more than a massive global power grab by creepy psychopaths/sociopaths who consider themselves to be the ruling elite.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on June 06, 2013, 05:09:54 PM
A lot of people were brainwashed at a young age to associate anything other than corporate medicine to be voodoo medicine.

Sad really. The same goes for corporate software. Free software is seen as commie software.

It's really amazing at how efficient the state is at warping people's minds. It's damned good at that!


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: State-God on June 06, 2013, 07:29:13 PM
A lot of people were brainwashed at a young age to associate anything other than corporate medicine to be voodoo medicine.

Sad really. The same goes for corporate software. Free software is seen as commie software.

It's really amazing at how efficient the state is at warping people's minds. It's damned good at that!

Broadly speaking it's usually the case that corporate medicine is better, especially compared to all the 'Eastern' remedies like crystals and steam-baths.

And yes, I'm aware that there are plenty of exceptions like Burzynski (at least possibly, I haven't done much research on him).


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 06, 2013, 07:43:25 PM
Imagine going back in time a few hundred years when everybody thought the world was flat.

And then some guy comes along and says "look everybody! I've got evidence that the world is round and not the center of the universe!"

And then the church throws that guy in prison and makes him retract his former statements and proclaim that there is no evidence that the world is round.

And then people like you, MAM, parroting the church's line, "I don't see any evidence that the world is round."

Are all of the doctors a part of some conspiracy? Come on! They're just a bunch of dupes who joined the guild.

It's all about using the state to protect the guild and squash competition. Very few people, including many libertarians, apparently, see it for what it really is.

The Math never lies to you.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 03:41:04 PM
Quote
Broadly speaking it's usually the case that corporate medicine is better, especially compared to all the 'Eastern' remedies like crystals and steam-baths.

Well as someone who always seeks out natural remedies, has taken anti-biotics less than 5 times in my entire life and is extremely healthy, I would have to disagree with you.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 03:49:05 PM
Quote
Broadly speaking it's usually the case that corporate medicine is better, especially compared to all the 'Eastern' remedies like crystals and steam-baths.

Well as someone who always seeks out natural remedies, has taken anti-biotics less than 5 times in my entire life and is extremely healthy, I would have to disagree with you.

I made this meme https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=129791077222329&set=a.111979479003489.1073741828.100005743122373&type=1&theater


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 04:39:44 PM
Quote
No I don't think 90% of doctors and scientists "are in on some conspiracy" but doctors spend years getting brainwashed in medical school to accept that allopathy  (i.e. treat symptoms instead of dealing with the cause) is how to treat humans, hence the massive drug industry. The scientists? Well, most of them either work within the pharmaceutical industry and if not they are still funded by the state and/or pharmaceutical industry and have families to support, mortgages, car payments, kids college tuitions, etc., etc. and certainly don't want to jeopardize their cushy fat-ass lifestyles. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to wrap your mind around since we've all seen how many "scientists" go right along with "climate change" hoax which is nothing more than a massive global power grab by creepy psychopaths/sociopaths who consider themselves to be the ruling elite

It isn't hard for me. I understand that the FDA is evil and that like all government entities it warps and destroys everything it touches. BUT magic isn't real.

I am for herbal remedies but what most "natural" remedy folk don't understand is that Western MODERN medicines are made primarily from plants. Certainly not all but a large percentage something between 70%-80% depending on who you talk to. Tim MInchin did a poem called Storm.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

Watch it.

Chiropractics and massage won't cure a cold because again magic isn't real. Leeching is bullshit and is actually harmful. People aren't possessed by spirits when they're sick. Am I saying these claims are your claims? NO! But pseudo science is like magic in that it doesn't work.

I don't want anecdotal evidence I want SCIENTIFIC evidence. And no science is not what the government says it is. Science acknowledges the supremacy of Mathematics, science follows the scientific method. Question, Hypothesis, Experiment, Result and always document. Rinse and repeat. And you know what the really cool thing about science is? demonstrable repeatable results.

If you're for actual science then we're and have no disagreement start waving magic crystals in the air and I will call it bullshit until I'm blue in the face. 


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 04:52:11 PM
True but those same "medicines" are allopathic in nature which means they are designed to treat symptoms instead of dealing with the cause. You know, take aspirin for chronic headaches and to hell with trying to find the cause of the headaches. Allopathic medicine is very similar to how statism deals with problems. Politicians see something they think needs "fixing" so they proceed with their idiotic meddling, and then the sheeple beg their masters to do something and then they pile more crap (i.e. laws) on top of the original problem and thus make the problem much worse than it ever was.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 05:06:05 PM
True but those same "medicines" are allopathic in nature which means they are designed to treat symptoms instead of dealing with the cause. You know, take aspirin for chronic headaches but whats causing the headaches? Allopathic medicine is very similar to how statism deals with problems. Politicians see something they think needs "fixing" so they proceed with their idiotic meddling, and then the sheeple beg their masters to do something and then they pile more crap (i.e. laws) on top of the original problem and thus make the problem much worse than it ever was.

Aspirin is derived from Willow Bark even "natural" medicines can be Allopathic in nature.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 05:18:31 PM

Chiropractics and massage won't cure a cold because again magic isn't real.

I don't want anecdotal evidence I want SCIENTIFIC evidence. And no science is not what the government says it is.

If you're for actual science then we're and have no disagreement start waving magic crystals in the air and I will call it bullshit until I'm blue in the face. 

But I never said anything about "magic" or crystals or chiropractics so I don't understand why you would presume that.  ???

However, regarding chiropractics curing a cold...   I went to a chiro because my neck had been hurting for a few days and I happen to have a sore throat then too. I didn't go to the chiro because of the sore throat but when I got up a few minutes later after being snapped, crackled and popped the sore throat was gone! True story.

And in further defense of chiropractics, since you brought it up...   I walked around with horrible chronic neck and back pain for years because of all the radical shit I did as a kid which was compounded by the work I was doing. After years of being miserable I finally started going to a chiropractor and about 80% of the pain disappeared immediately after the first session. When I say "immediately" I mean I'll never forget thinking how much better I felt as I was walking back to my car after that session. I went a couple times a week for a few weeks and then once a week for a while (the guy was super cheap too!) and that was 15 years ago and now I only need to go once or twice a year.

I think its magical thinking to believe you'll see real science from "scientists" that derive their income from the state and/or big pharma when the results of their work can be used by the state and/or big pharma for the purposes of making people more dependent.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 05:25:39 PM
Aspirin is derived from Willow Bark even "natural" medicines can be Allopathic in nature.

Sure, but I was referring to chronic headaches where its best to figure out what the cause is and cure the problem instead of just masking the symptoms. For example, the cause of most headaches is due to dehydration. Slam H2O and two minutes later the headache is gone.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on June 07, 2013, 05:30:22 PM
And don't forget the healing power of massage. Touch therapy is extremely important for human beings. People who go years without ever being touched by more than handshakes often suffer from depression.

In fact, it's my understanding that premature babies get touch therapy from nurses every day while they're in their incubators. The nurses simply rub their hands all over the baby and caress them.

I think MAM just has a very closed minded idea of what alternative medicine is. He's been brainwashed to think that alternatives to state/corporate medicine are all crystals and elixirs. That's never been my experience.

But there's nothing we're going to say to change his mind. When he's ready to let go of his hostile attitude and actually look into these things with a more open mind then he might start to understand.

You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 05:43:01 PM
And don't forget the healing power of massage. Touch therapy is extremely important for human beings. People who go years without ever being touched by more than handshakes often suffer from depression.

In fact, it's my understanding that premature babies get touch therapy from nurses every day while they're in their incubators. The nurses simply rub their hands all over the baby and caress them.

I think MAM just has a very closed minded idea of what alternative medicine is. He's been brainwashed to think that alternatives to state/corporate medicine are all crystals and elixirs. That's never been my experience.

But there's nothing we're going to say to change his mind. When he's ready to let go of his hostile attitude and actually look into these things with a more open mind then he might start to understand.

You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink.

I would be offended by this but there's really no point in getting angry over your ignorance of what I've done.

So instead of being angry by this I'll educate you, and bring you out of your State of ignorance.

I have looked into alternative medicines and you know what I've found? Alternative medicine is called alternative medicine because it doesn't work so that would mean by definition that alternative medicine is not scientific.

Herbal remedies are not "alternative" to anything they are MAINSTREAM. Herbs are used by fascist medicine.

I've not only taken herbal remedies in the past, I've harvested the plants and made them myself... So yeah ignorance is bliss I guess.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 05:43:54 PM
Oh yeah, a good massage therapist can be phenomenal for healing. :D I wonder how many government studies have been done on that? :P

MAM: Its all energy dude so find a good Reiki Master in your area and you'll begin to see radical changes in your body and consciousness.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
You see Seth I don't just dismiss shit I look into it.

I don't say communism is bullshit because I don't like it. I say it because I've actually gone through the trouble to read their bullshit...

But the thing is I don't have time any more to reinvent the wheel so the question is do you believe in Math? Do you believe in science? I do. If you do then you'll stop calling things alternative that aren't alternative and you'll accept the fact that when it works people use it.

Do you support Bitcoin because it goes against Austrian convention? Or do you support that alternative currency because it's an actual currency?

It's an actual currency right? Herbs are an actual medicine. Don't insult my intelligence please. Thanks for your time.

Peace be with you.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 05:54:37 PM

Chiropractics and massage won't cure a cold because again magic isn't real.

I don't want anecdotal evidence I want SCIENTIFIC evidence. And no science is not what the government says it is.

If you're for actual science then we're and have no disagreement start waving magic crystals in the air and I will call it bullshit until I'm blue in the face. 

But I never said anything about "magic" or crystals or chiropractics so I don't understand why you would presume that.  ???

However, regarding chiropractics curing a cold...   I went to a chiro because my neck had been hurting for a few days and I happen to have a sore throat then too. I didn't go to the chiro because of the sore throat but when I got up a few minutes later after being snapped, crackled and popped the sore throat was gone! True story.

And in further defense of chiropractics, since you brought it up...   I walked around with horrible chronic neck and back pain for years because of all the radical shit I did as a kid which was compounded by the work I was doing. After years of being miserable I finally started going to a chiropractor and about 80% of the pain disappeared immediately after the first session. When I say "immediately" I mean I'll never forget thinking how much better I felt as I was walking back to my car after that session. I went a couple times a week for a few weeks and then once a week for a while (the guy was super cheap too!) and that was 15 years ago and now I only need to go once or twice a year.

I think its magical thinking to believe you'll see real science from "scientists" that derive their income from the state and/or big pharma when the results of their work can be used by the state and/or big pharma for the purposes of making people more dependent.

First Chiropractics and Massage actually DO things to your body I believe that they CAN effect how you feel. But a massage and neck popping isn't going to effect bacteria because they don't have anything to do with bacteria.

It's quite presumptuousness to assume that the whole of formal education is bullshit simply because the State had something to do with it. The State fucks shit up but it doesn't invalidate something simply for having touched it does it? You know what guns don't work because the State uses them!

It's pretty hard to deny something like that but reasoning being applied here leads to that conclusion when applied to physics doesn't it?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 06:02:29 PM
What do you call alternative?

Is corporate fascist medicine bullshit because it's fascist? Or does it work and fail on its own merits?

You know what I find highly amusing is that people are living longer than they used to, are more productive than they used to be, and are exposed to more information in a day than their ancestors were in their whole lives. Yet with all of these facts before them people lament technology and long for primitivism.

Is everything Christ or Muhammed said bullshit because it's written in books chalk full of errors? I don't think so, it seems like you'd be saying that it was if use religion as a comparison to fascism.

Does the fact that science doesn't support the idea of the Christian God mean that there is no God?





Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Seth King on June 07, 2013, 06:11:43 PM
You've already researched all of alternative medicine and found it all to be bullshit? Wow!

I'm not insulting your intelligence. When it comes to this topic, though, you're very closed minded and you're only looking for alternatives that will support your confirmation bias.

I'm done debating with you. You've got your mind made up. I really don't care what medicine you choose to use. It's your life.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 06:12:59 PM
Besides all the arguments being made here are beside the point.

The real question isn't is magic real, the question is should people be prevented from believing in/ practising magic? Nope! People can believe and do whatever they want so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

And to clarify alternative medicine is by definition psuedo scientific nonsense or it is magic.

I'm NOT saying that everything in corporate medicine is true right and good. I'm saying that just because it IS corporate medicine doesn't mean it's horse shit. My point is that far too many "alternative" folks are advocating magic.

And no Seth I don't think magic crystals is alternative medicine because of the State. In New Mexico where I live magic crystals are part of the required curriculum at UNM (for Education Majors). Where I live when people advocate for "alternative" medicine they really mean magic.

I have a friend who is a Massage Therapist, she got her education in Boston and she has even pointed out that here people are trained in a shit load of nonsense that wouldn't fly in Boston.




Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on June 07, 2013, 06:17:53 PM
*MASSIVE SIGH*

I am not claiming that I have researched all of the alternative medicines in the world. I already said that I don't have time to reinvent the wheel AND I have already said that I am not claiming that what I'm calling bullshit are your claims to alternative medicines.

I HAVE said that magic is bullshit that's it. I'm not even sure that this is a debate so much as me saying one thing you saying another thing that doesn't even necessarily contradict what I said and then we walk in a circle and call it a debate.

If you have a specific claim you want to bring forward I WILL GLADLY research it when I have the time.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 06:28:07 PM
Quote
First Chiropractics and Massage actually DO things to your body I believe that they CAN effect how you feel. But a massage and neck popping isn't going to effect bacteria because they don't have anything to do with bacteria.
Your body and everything in the universe is energy vibrating and when that energy doesn't flow freely then the effect of that blockage is dis-ease. Once you truly get that then its no surprise that articulating vertebrae could make a sore throat disappear.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on June 07, 2013, 06:35:21 PM
I'm NOT saying that everything in corporate medicine is true right and good. I'm saying that just because it IS corporate medicine doesn't mean it's horse shit. My point is that far too many "alternative" folks are advocating magic.

I don't think all corporate medicine is bullshit. I got a nasty infection twice in my life that I couldn't shake from surfing in polluted water (unbeknownst to me at the time) and all my natural stuff didn't work. I had to resort to anti-biotics and thank gawd for them!


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer background on Burzinsky and the debate winner is!
Post by: assymcgee on October 09, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
...  Ok 5 points to the guy who called Buzinsky's treatment crap.  You nailed it.

His "anti-neoplastins" are regular chemo meds with saline added to them (which renders them ineffective).  He has no surviving patients, they all die very quickly.  The reason why Bruzinsky wants the FDA to legalize his bs is because what he is doing is CRIMINAL and if charges were appropriately filed he would face a death sentance for medical fraud and malpractice resulting in multiple charges of manslaughter.  There is significant difficulty in building such a case which is why he is being allowed to operate at this time.

Also to those touting alternative medicine please look up where the ideology originates from.  Accupuncture originates from a belief that the number of rivers in China has everything to do with medicine (because in ancient times dissecting a corpse in China was an offense against the state punishable by the 5 pains).

Buzinsky is a scammer Stephan knows it, because he is a scammer too.  They're both old Arayan nation members and you can even find adds for "Burzinsky's miracle cure" in KKK magazines (plus where almost all the inspirations for tech in the Bioshock series came from, Burzinsky himself was the inspiration for the Handymen's background story).  Stephan is a "soft racist" who pitches policies and ideologies that would harm minorities disproportionately (it would still harm a lot of whites too).  He recruits for other white power groups by having them as guests on his show (similar to how RT {and msnbc} lets people like David Duke, Alex Jones, Judge-David-Wynn-Miller and Molyneux on and lets them talk without putting up a solid debate against them, making them look reasonable in the process so that they can recruit).

Really you guys shouldn't eat all the shit people like this spew out with a spoon, a little skepticism goes a long way.  They're just scammers trolling you for your hard earned cash.  I mean Stephan had a normal relationship with his parents, he makes up bs stories like he threw his mom out when he was 14.  I own a pawn shop, I know people who left their homes that young, they ended up sucking D***S to stay alive across the board, so I don't buy that they end up building up software companies.  Which BTW bravo he had an online ACH payment processor service, too bad that even now it's a biz in it's infancy and only Mint and eWise have really lasted any longer than 8 months.  Oh and he spent time in jail for stealing from his own company and employees.

So what of any of that above tells you this is someone with any source of enlightenment as to how the world works.  He's more like a half assed Jim Jones, at least Jim Jones was original and didn't just repurpouse shit from Dan Markel.  But really I do agree with the guy who thinks that Stefan should drink his own Kool-Aide, I think the Burzinsky treatment would be a fitting end for him.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 09, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
And for those who are going to say Stef isn't a racist, he uses racist words.  Listen to any of his race in the state rambles "moolato", "kike", "brown girls" he uses words that racists use for mixed girls and jews.  Good KKK indication, not to mention he lived within 2 miles of David Duke for 6 years, just saying.

There are real anarcho-capitalists out there but this guy is just a racist scammer just like all the conspiracy theorists.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: magentawave on October 09, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
assymcgee - You don't even know how to spell his name. You might want to start taking your meds again...


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on October 09, 2013, 10:40:01 PM
Good KKK indication, not to mention he lived within 2 miles of David Duke for 6 years, just saying.


This one time I lived next to a meth cook...



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 10, 2013, 08:15:01 AM
Lol so why is it all you stefbots are only capable of reciting straw man arguements?  maybe you feel like you've been in a mental fog for a while, maybe since you started watching FDR.  Do you know what brainwashing is?  Maybe you should check out the Rick Ross institute and learn something real instead of Stef's lies about well everything.

Like I said He's not even orginal Stef copied Dan Markel and just put his stuff on the internet, that's the only difference.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on October 10, 2013, 12:18:47 PM
Lol so why is it all you stefbots are only capable of reciting straw man arguements?  maybe you feel like you've been in a mental fog for a while, maybe since you started watching FDR.  Do you know what brainwashing is?  Maybe you should check out the Rick Ross institute and learn something real instead of Stef's lies about well everything.

Like I said He's not even orginal Stef copied Dan Markel and just put his stuff on the internet, that's the only difference.

Quote
Lol so why is it all you stefbots are only capable of reciting straw man arguements?

I don't like Stef, I know I'm not the only one.

Quote
Do you know what brainwashing is?

Anyone who is awake now and went to public school is aware of brainwashing.

Quote
Maybe you should check out the Rick Ross institute and learn something real instead of Stef's lies about well everything.

I've heard of one Rick Ross. He's a fat black rapper. You aren't talking about the same guy are you?



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on October 10, 2013, 12:41:22 PM
Also I'm not sure that you know what a strawman is.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 14, 2013, 07:16:38 AM
The way Stef defines strawman is anyone who questions him.  The same way that Alex Jones defines government agent, duh.

The guy lies about history too anarcho-capitalism was tried multiple times and ended with inter-generational poverty, slavery, the rise of Nazism, the rise of Napoleon.

Stef is a total ass, I hope it spreads to his pancreas.

There is a huge sect of anarchists including Stef that just espouse beliefs from the book "The Protocols of Zion" adapted by the John Birch Society.  The book that all conspiracy theories originate from Russia in the 1890's (really it's a plagerism though of a French book [against Catholics] from the 1860's) saying that the Jews (which make up less than .02% of the world's population) are controlling every aspect of society behind the scenes in order to control the world.  This book and Theosopy is how Guido von List arrived at the theories of Arayanism which he personally taught to Hitler (who also read the book).  The book was one of the prized possessions of most Nazi officers.  The book was actually for sale on Ron Paul's "Campaign for Liberty" site from 2008 to 2012 and has been openly promoted by Alex Jones (who read it as a child).

Anyone copying the type of anarchy that people who read this book recommend are simply setting up despotism not real anarchy.  Seriously fuck Stef.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 14, 2013, 07:18:49 AM
The condition you call awake is a state of being brainwashed.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Syock on October 14, 2013, 01:54:40 PM
The guy lies about history too anarcho-capitalism was tried multiple times and ended with inter-generational poverty, slavery, the rise of Nazism, the rise of Napoleon.

I think you either are sadly misinformed on what anarcho-capitalism is, or you lie as well.  

The book was actually for sale on Ron Paul's "Campaign for Liberty" site from 2008 to 2012 ...

This is misinformed as well, taken quite out of context.  

Anyone copying the type of anarchy that people who read this book recommend are simply setting up despotism not real anarchy.  Seriously fuck Stef.

Do you even know where you are right now?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on October 14, 2013, 03:45:02 PM
Quote
I think you either are sadly misinformed on what anarcho-capitalism is, or you lie as well. 

I can't believe you didn't know that the Weimar Republic was an example of AnCapistan...


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Syock on October 14, 2013, 05:05:25 PM
Quote
I think you either are sadly misinformed on what anarcho-capitalism is, or you lie as well. 

I can't believe you didn't know that the Weimar Republic was an example of AnCapistan...

Of course, what was I thinking?


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 15, 2013, 02:02:05 PM
you know though you just lost the godwin gambit.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: assymcgee on October 15, 2013, 02:06:58 PM
Yes I know where I'm posting.  I hope that neo-nazi con-man suffers a horrible death for working with David Duke.  I hope his wife is raped to death in front of him while he is on his death bed and that his child is forced to watch it all.  Then when that's done I hope his kid is sold into child prostitution in Afghanistan and gets AIDS from an abusive flacid whoremonger.

FUCK STEF.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Syock on October 15, 2013, 03:11:01 PM
Yes I know where I'm posting.  I hope that neo-nazi con-man suffers a horrible death for working with David Duke.  I hope his wife is raped to death in front of him while he is on his death bed and that his child is forced to watch it all.  Then when that's done I hope his kid is sold into child prostitution in Afghanistan and gets AIDS from an abusive flacid whoremonger.

FUCK STEF.

I suspect there are people out there that wish the same for you.

you know though you just lost the godwin gambit.

Only if I actually give a crap about your contributes, or lack thereof, to this forum, which I don't.  There is no need to let a thread derail and die due to you.  Have a nice day.  



Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: Syock on October 15, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
I haven't weighed in on the alternative meds part of this thread yet.  

From what I have seen, there are many types of alternative medicine.  Some just seem outright crazy to me.  Some are taking some scientific study to an absurd level and working from that.  

There is however quite a bit of big business medicine that is based on things that today are considered alternative.  Aspirin for example originally came from the bark of a tree.  This was mentioned earlier in the thread.  Someone isolated what in the bark was reliving the pain, and just started producing pills of that chemical.  The bark still works, of course both the bark and the drug have side effects as well.  The natural version usually has more, as it has more chemicals in it to cause them, and sometimes less, as it has chemicals that happen to moderate them.  

That is just one example, but it is a common method for the creation of modern medical drugs.

There certainly are alternatives that work, but which ones those are would be near impossible to pin down without being raised in the culture that uses it, before big pharma gets a hold of it and actually throws a ton of money at it.  No one cares to run trials on alternatives that they can't make money on.  

If the way to avoid cancer in the first place is a specific diet which happens to contain some natural medicine no one turned into a drug yet (best bet given cancer rates around the globe), there will likely never be any real proof of the alternative.  No one financially benefits from figuring it out.  They will however sell the drug once they isolate it.  The alternative will be forgotten.  No one uses Willow bark these days, not even big pharma making asprin.  Big pharma likely would deny where they copied nature if it could threaten their bottom line.  



It's all part of the same fallacy that companies have an incentive to produce crappy products, I swear it reminds me of the broken window fallacy.

I saw this and would like to address it.  Companies do have an incentive to hit a price point for certain products.  That may mean using thinner/weaker material, that while still does the job for at least some/most people, may not be as robust as the competitors more expensive product.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It meets market demand, but it can be a relatively 'crappy' product. 


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: MAM on October 15, 2013, 04:59:52 PM
Quote
I saw this and would like to address it.  Companies do have an incentive to hit a price point for certain products.  That may mean using thinner/weaker material, that while still does the job for at least some/most people, may not be as robust as the competitors more expensive product.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It meets market demand, but it can be a relatively 'crappy' product.

Aye.


Title: Re: Stefan Molyneux has cancer
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on November 16, 2013, 01:55:10 AM
Maybe you should check out the Rick Ross institute and learn something real instead of Stef's lies about well everything.

I've heard of one Rick Ross. He's a fat black rapper. You aren't talking about the same guy are you?


I'm so glad someone wrote this.