Daily Anarchist Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MAM on February 07, 2013, 07:19:33 PM



Title: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 07, 2013, 07:19:33 PM
Everyone wants to moan about their rights. Well hate to break it to you folks but whine all you want no one cares no one is listening and unless you are willing to fight for your shit it ain't happening.

That's the truth of it.

Am I saying we should blow up gubberment buildings? No.... I'm saying live your fucking life and kill anyone who tries to stop you.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: State-God on February 07, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 07, 2013, 08:22:28 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....

Absolutely. People need to get over this "peace" thing. And as far as forcing shit on people like macsnafu said it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: Amagi on February 12, 2013, 06:11:44 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....

Absolutely. People need to get over this "peace" thing. And as far as forcing shit on people like macsnafu said it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied.

Nonviolence is a value and a way of life. Who are you to force your values onto someone else? That's what the government does.

Free markets with the rule of law are also very peaceful. You don't see the owner of one company hiring a hit squad to take out the owner of his competitor. Only governments and organizations outside the rule of law do that.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 12, 2013, 06:18:48 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....

Absolutely. People need to get over this "peace" thing. And as far as forcing shit on people like macsnafu said it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied.

Nonviolence is a value and a way of life. Who are you to force your values onto someone else? That's what the government does.

Free markets with the rule of law are also very peaceful. You don't see the owner of one company hiring a hit squad to take out the owner of his competitor. Only governments and organizations outside the rule of law do that.

I believe I said and I quote "it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied" but the fact of the matter remains if can't defend it or if you won't defend it it's not yours. Rights are useful constructs but unless you are willing to kill for your rights it really isn't a right it's more of a privilege.

What is the "law" its a group of people getting together and forcing shit on people. You talk about non violence but that is a myth. Life is conflict.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: Amagi on February 12, 2013, 06:26:33 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....

Absolutely. People need to get over this "peace" thing. And as far as forcing shit on people like macsnafu said it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied.

Nonviolence is a value and a way of life. Who are you to force your values onto someone else? That's what the government does.

Free markets with the rule of law are also very peaceful. You don't see the owner of one company hiring a hit squad to take out the owner of his competitor. Only governments and organizations outside the rule of law do that.

I believe I said and I quote "it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied" but the fact of the matter remains if can't defend it or if you won't defend it it's not yours. Rights are useful constructs but unless you are willing to kill for your rights it really isn't a right it's more of a privilege.

Civil disobedience requires no killing or violence and has been an extremely effective method of solidifying rights. Defense does not mean violence. Also, rights are are inalienable. I think you need to look up the difference between rights and privileges.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 12, 2013, 06:32:59 PM
Like I was saying.

Unlimited rights.

You have the right to shoot me, and vice versa.

Everyone wins!

Well, unless you're the one getting shot....

Absolutely. People need to get over this "peace" thing. And as far as forcing shit on people like macsnafu said it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied.

Nonviolence is a value and a way of life. Who are you to force your values onto someone else? That's what the government does.

Free markets with the rule of law are also very peaceful. You don't see the owner of one company hiring a hit squad to take out the owner of his competitor. Only governments and organizations outside the rule of law do that.

I believe I said and I quote "it's not about forcing shit on people it's about not being bullied" but the fact of the matter remains if can't defend it or if you won't defend it it's not yours. Rights are useful constructs but unless you are willing to kill for your rights it really isn't a right it's more of a privilege.

Civil disobedience requires no killing or violence and has been an extremely effective method of solidifying rights. Defense does not mean violence. Also, rights are are inalienable. I think you need to look up the difference between rights and privileges.

What makes a right inalienable? From where I'm standing you can make a claim on a "right to life" but that right disappears as soon as someone comes along and kills you.

Rights are a construct they do not exist. They can be a compass that guides your actions but when push comes to shove they don't exist. The only thing that matters in the real world is one's ability to do violence. I'm not saying that civil disobedience doesn't work nor am I saying that one can't choose to be non violent. What I am saying is that your rights do not exist in any meaningful way unless you are prepared to defend them.

Besides with civil disobedience you may not engage in violence but the State will, thus taking these "inalienable rights" away from you whilst locking you in a cage. If you want to stay out of the cage you have to be prepared to fight.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 12, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
The fact is we are at the mercy of the State.

The fact is life is conflict, a struggle.

The fact is that might/power are what counts in the real world.

Justice, righteousness, rights, morality etc... are not objective they are subjective might is objective.

The way of the world is might equals right not in a moral sense but in reality it is the only thing that matters.

The law demonstrates this point nicely for what is the law? It is institutionalized violence.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: State-God on February 12, 2013, 08:26:37 PM
I'm going with MAM on this one Amagi. I think you gotta realize that saying there are 'absolute', 'inalieable', and 'natural' rights is simply unscientific had heavily based on your own subjective point of view.

Who's to say that the Liberals aren't correct in calling for 'new' rights? Who are YOU to say that there is not a natural, inalienable right to healthcare? What, it's not 'natural'? Well neither is the right to property, it's designed for easy conflict resolution over scarce resources, based on the reality of scarcity we live in.

Fact is, rights are a human construct.

I think what MAM's saying here is NOT that society should be based on brute force and the war of all versus all- he's saying that we need to realize that saying "I have the right to the fruits of my labor." doesn't mean anything unless you can -defend- that right. Unless you can enact your will upon reality, it isn't a 'right', and it doesn't really exist. 

That doesn't necessarily mean violence is the only way to establish rights, non-violent protest can be used as well- as long as you can get other people to recognize your rights, then they're real.



Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 12, 2013, 11:20:48 PM
I'm going with MAM on this one Amagi. I think you gotta realize that saying there are 'absolute', 'inalieable', and 'natural' rights is simply unscientific had heavily based on your own subjective point of view.

Who's to say that the Liberals aren't correct in calling for 'new' rights? Who are YOU to say that there is not a natural, inalienable right to healthcare? What, it's not 'natural'? Well neither is the right to property, it's designed for easy conflict resolution over scarce resources, based on the reality of scarcity we live in.

Fact is, rights are a human construct.

I think what MAM's saying here is NOT that society should be based on brute force and the war of all versus all- he's saying that we need to realize that saying "I have the right to the fruits of my labor." doesn't mean anything unless you can -defend- that right. Unless you can enact your will upon reality, it isn't a 'right', and it doesn't really exist. 

That doesn't necessarily mean violence is the only way to establish rights, non-violent protest can be used as well- as long as you can get other people to recognize your rights, then they're real.



Quote
NOT that society should be based on brute force and the war of all versus all
No it isn't due to the subjective nature of value. Something like this might arise between defence agencies as market forces work to keep one defence agency from replacing the State.

Quote
That doesn't necessarily mean violence is the only way to establish rights
No it isn't, I think once might is sufficient rights can be established. Indeed we see this at work today as the "liberals" use the State to enforce their idea of rights.

Quote
realize that saying "I have the right to the fruits of my labor." doesn't mean anything unless you can -defend- that right. Unless you can enact your will upon reality, it isn't a 'right', and it doesn't really exist. 

We see this in effect today as I DO believe in people's right to the fruits of their labour yet again the State through the use of superior violence steals from people.

I believe that a way to achieve a free society is through self empowerment, and I firmly believe that the ability to use violence is a key component of this. I am NOT saying that it is the only way. But it is the way I choose.


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: Tear-Down-the-Wall on February 14, 2013, 07:20:51 PM
"Personally, when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true. I think either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all. Personally I lean towards unlimited rights. I feel, for instance, I have the right to do anything I please, BUT! If I do something you don’t like, I think you have the right to kill me. So where are you gonna find a fairer fucking deal than that? So the next time some asshole says to you “I have the right to my opinion.” You say, “oh yeah? Well I have the right to my opinion and my opinion is you have no right to your opinion!” then shoot the fuck and walk away…" - George Carlin


Title: Re: The problem with rights.
Post by: MAM on February 14, 2013, 09:28:39 PM
"Personally, when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true. I think either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all. Personally I lean towards unlimited rights. I feel, for instance, I have the right to do anything I please, BUT! If I do something you don’t like, I think you have the right to kill me. So where are you gonna find a fairer fucking deal than that? So the next time some asshole says to you “I have the right to my opinion.” You say, “oh yeah? Well I have the right to my opinion and my opinion is you have no right to your opinion!” then shoot the fuck and walk away…" - George Carlin

Yes indeed.