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Videos => Anarcho-Capitalist Videos => Topic started by: RJ Miller on November 30, 2012, 04:55:02 PM



Title: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on November 30, 2012, 04:55:02 PM
...including legal systems.  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4CcannofnY

This man was the one who finally convinced me I was on the right intellectual path after all with his book, "The Machinery of Freedom" which is now in PDF form. He is now working on a third edition which should be done in the next year or so from what he has said on his blog.

Over the past few years, I have come to the conclusion that it might be best if you simply allow people to opt out of the current political system (tax-wise) so you can use that same money for private alternatives. I guess you could say it involves having market law within a statist society. From there the former can simply lead by example.  :D


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: BobRobertson on November 30, 2012, 04:56:59 PM
if you simply allow people to opt out of the current political system

Except that the Goons will never allow that. If people could "opt-out", their ponzi scheme would collapse around their ears.

That's why they have Legal Tender laws.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: Syock on December 01, 2012, 09:01:55 AM
That's why they have Legal Tender laws.

Legal tender laws just says that you must pay the government with their own money, and everyone must accept that money. 

I agree that they will never let us opt-out of paying taxes.  They will say, "You drive on the roads, use public water and sewage, public schools, public .." everything they can think of to say why it is impossible to opt-out. 

I love it when people just are so far gone that they say you can't be right because it is illegal.  Every moral/political/economic argument they have revolves around legality.  Some law some guy made up for who knows what motivation is deciding how people think about the world.   


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: AutodidacticJoe on December 01, 2012, 05:37:12 PM
judge napalitano posted this on FB. yeah hes an ancap ;)


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 02, 2012, 08:09:00 PM
Except that the Goons will never allow that. If people could "opt-out", their ponzi scheme would collapse around their ears.

That's why they have Legal Tender laws.

I am not disputing this; but what I would argue is that a sizable portion of those who would rather have the government provide a given good or service might be willing to let other people take a different route so long as they are not required to do so themselves.

To use Social "Security" as an example, consider the difficulty in convincing the entire public that privatization of the system would be a good idea. Now compare that to simply trying to persuade them you let you opt out from paying taxes into it and not take benefits later on. They get to keep their preferred system and you are free to use your wealth for whatever retirement scheme you see fit.

Or take education. Scrapping the government-run education system altogether would be pretty unfeasable right now, but you are bound to have more success with the idea that people should be allowed to take the tax dollars they pay for public schools and use that money for whatever kind of schooling parents/students desire.

The latter choices in both situations are much easier to sell to the public since supporters of government programs and so forth do not want to lose their preferred system. But many of them might be willing to stop forcing those preferences on others.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: MAM on December 02, 2012, 08:26:50 PM
Except that the Goons will never allow that. If people could "opt-out", their ponzi scheme would collapse around their ears.

That's why they have Legal Tender laws.

I am not disputing this; but what I would argue is that a sizable portion of those who would rather have the government provide a given good or service might be willing to let other people take a different route so long as they are not required to do so themselves.

To use Social "Security" as an example, consider the difficulty in convincing the entire public that privatization of the system would be a good idea. Now compare that to simply trying to persuade them you let you opt out from paying taxes into it and not take benefits later on. They get to keep their preferred system and you are free to use your wealth for whatever retirement scheme you see fit.

Or take education. Scrapping the government-run education system altogether would be pretty unfeasable right now, but you are bound to have more success with the idea that people should be allowed to take the tax dollars they pay for public schools and use that money for whatever kind of schooling parents/students desire.

The latter choices in both situations are much easier to sell to the public since supporters of government programs and so forth do not want to lose their preferred system. But many of them might be willing to stop forcing those preferences on others.

Until they realize that their system cannot be supported without theft.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 02, 2012, 08:35:35 PM
Until they realize that their system cannot be supported without theft.

Or realize that their system is inferior to what we would rather utilize - it could go both ways.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: MAM on December 02, 2012, 09:31:15 PM
Until they realize that their system cannot be supported without theft.

Or realize that their system is inferior to what we would rather utilize - it could go both ways.

You can't beat faith with reason.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 02, 2012, 11:21:18 PM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: Syock on December 03, 2012, 12:38:35 AM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\

Most people get there in their own time, through their own exploration.  You usually can't argue reason into someone.  Point them to existing sources of essentially unlimited information on it.  I'm not going to waste my time on individuals unless I know them well. 


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: MAM on December 03, 2012, 12:46:07 AM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\

Because you can't persuade someone to change their philosophy they have to do it themselves. You can expose them to it but convince them? Bah! I don't know how long you've been around but if you haven't already you will learn this lesson from our very own assassin7


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: BobRobertson on December 03, 2012, 10:33:22 AM
Until they realize that their system cannot be supported without theft.

Exactly.

No matter how cheap education is, people are still afraid that without "govt schooling" some kids will not get taught and therefore there must be taxation.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader how many straw-man arguments there are in that one sentence. :D


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 04, 2012, 08:52:13 PM
Do we all at least agree that it is much easier to persuade others to let you opt out from paying for and using governmental goods and services than convincing them to abolish them altogether?


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: MAM on December 04, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
Do we all at least agree that it is much easier to persuade others to let you opt out from paying for and using governmental goods and services than convincing them to abolish them altogether?

Initially this may be true I haven't tried to convince anyone, I just do my own thing. But as more people opt out you will find that at your door and you either will submit once again or take up arms.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: BobRobertson on December 05, 2012, 08:54:57 AM
Do we all at least agree that it is much easier to persuade others to let you opt out from paying for and using governmental goods and services than convincing them to abolish them altogether?

Not in my experience, no.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 07, 2012, 03:56:59 AM
Not in my experience, no.

I am very surprised at this, normally people are more open to letting others opt out of given programs than having them abolished altogether. Even if they may disagree with both proposals, the former is much easier to sell to the public since it tells them they have little to lose if they like the system they have.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: BobRobertson on December 07, 2012, 09:00:20 AM
the former is much easier to sell to the public since it tells them they have little to lose if they like the system they have.

Except that then the person opting-out doesn't "pay their fair share" but gets the supposed "benefits" because those who stay in the program, whatever it is, supposedly alleviate whatever it is "bad" that the program is supposed to solve.

Like childhood injections. By everybody else getting the shots, my kid is "protected" even though he didn't get the shots.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: RJ Miller on December 07, 2012, 01:02:00 PM
Right, I am not arguing that people who opt out would still be allowed to take out benefits though.

But I understand some people will not move an inch on any given issue no matter what.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on March 13, 2013, 09:25:16 PM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\

Because you can't persuade someone to change their philosophy they have to do it themselves. You can expose them to it but convince them?
I've done it...once. It's not easy though.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: MAM on March 13, 2013, 10:34:09 PM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\

Because you can't persuade someone to change their philosophy they have to do it themselves. You can expose them to it but convince them?
I've done it...once. It's not easy though.

I was a Marxist.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: State-God on March 13, 2013, 11:09:51 PM
Judging from many of the comments here, it seems like everyone has given up any means of persuading non-Voluntaryists altogether.  :-\

Because you can't persuade someone to change their philosophy they have to do it themselves. You can expose them to it but convince them?
I've done it...once. It's not easy though.

I was a Marxist.

The Marx Brothers can be pretty funny, yeh.


Title: Re: David Friedman on How to Privatize Everything
Post by: Syock on November 06, 2013, 12:55:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4CcannofnY