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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Freya on January 19, 2012, 10:38:16 PM



Title: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Freya on January 19, 2012, 10:38:16 PM
I was curious how culturally conservative or culturally progressive members of this forum are. By this is mean your stance on cultural changes that go against tradition. Such as: homosexuality, non-nuclear families and feminism. I'm going to list a few I'd like your opinion on and ask you to pick one of the following:

Classifications


Defiance
You consider this cultural change to be so offensive that you would seek to rid the world of those who try to bring about this change.
Resistance

You reject this cultural change and resist it fiercely. You would be willing to use force against individuals to prevent this change from occurring in your community.
Avoidance
You reject this cultural change and resist it (mostly passively). You would use ostracism/exclusion against individuals and use peaceful ways to prevent this change.
Tolerance
You dislike or have some aversion of this change. You would be might be willing to associate with individuals if it is in your interest, but you would not consider them friends.
Acceptance
You accept this change as part of the new cultural norm.
Participance
You are either a part of this cultural change or actively support it.
Combatance
You would violently force others to accept this cultural change or would attack those who actively seek to prevent it.

List of currently controversial cultural phenomena (may vary from country to country):

  • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/))
  • Homo and bi-sexuality
  • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.
  • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.
  • Prostitution
  • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.
  • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.
  • Bestiality: Sex with animals
  • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors
  • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)
  • Abortion
  • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.
  • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent
  • of all involved.
  • Pornography
  • Euthanesia/Suicide
  • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.
  • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"
  • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.
  • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine
  • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

I'd like for you to classify your stance on each of these. Feel free to add additional comments or reasoning as to why you take this stance. Feel free to suggest other options as well.

I'll fill it in myself tomorrow, but I'm curious how you all feel.









Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Syock on January 19, 2012, 11:29:45 PM
Considering ancap is about non-aggression and all, I would expect most people to at least take a live and let live kind of attitude about this.  I will skip/modify answering some of these, as answering them have potential for incarceration or who knows what.  There are some really touchy subjects still as far as the law is concerned.  

I am using "Acceptance" as supporting as well.  I don't go out and protest things, so I don't really have an active support to differentiate with.  

Quote
  • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/))

[Edit: As asked in the example it is fine to promote in a non-legal way.  I believe the way to have equality is to treat people equally, rather than the common usage of this movement to get legislation passed that causes all sorts of weird regulations.  

The reality of Feminism is quite a bit more extreme.  http://www.womenagainstmen.com/media/feminism-is-a-hate-group.html  ]

Quote
  • Homo and bi-sexuality

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.    

Quote
  • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Prostitution

Acceptance - I would probably be a participant if it were legal where I am, or if I were female and willing to move.  

Quote
  • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

Participance - Atheist

Quote
  • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

Acceptance, maybe participant, I haven't looked into it to see what counts.  

Skipping a few here for legal reasons...

Quote
  • Abortion

Participance - I don't support government stealing from people to fund anything, and this is one that is commonly funded that way.  

Quote
  • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

Participance - using your definition.  I've seen it defined differently as well which would put it in acceptance.  

Quote
  • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent of all involved.

Participance

Quote
  • Pornography

Participance - A few of the others on this list mix well with this, and might bump me to participant in them.  

Quote
  • Euthanesia/Suicide

If I participated in this, I probably wouldn't be here right now.  I support it.  

Quote
  • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.

Participance - DNA isn't something people get to pick one way or the other.  Why not?

Quote
  • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it, so long as it is consensual.

Quote
  • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.  

Quote
  • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine

Acceptance - I am not part of the group, but I have no problem with it.


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Freya on January 19, 2012, 11:39:28 PM
I took participant as also being an activist or actively advocating. So a participant could be a doctor who performs euthanasia.

Quote
I will skip/modify answering some of these, as answering them have potential for incarceration or who knows what.  There are some really touchy subjects still as far as the law is concerned.  

Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

Thats quite shocking as I would minimally answer acceptance to pretty much all of these. With the exception of two.


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: victim77 on January 19, 2012, 11:40:03 PM
I really cannot stand 90% of all people because they don't actually think. Most, if not all of the "controversial" things listed have been around way before even the Roman Empire. I don't like people who try too hard to be open minded, yet ignorance makes me sick. And honestly, I don't care about what other people do to themselves or others as long as it is voluntary.


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Syock on January 19, 2012, 11:46:48 PM
I really cannot stand 90% of all people because they don't actually think. Most, if not all of the "controversial" things listed have been around way before even the Roman Empire. I don't like people who try too hard to be open minded, yet ignorance makes me sick. And honestly, I don't care about what other people do to themselves or others as long as it is voluntary.

The only one that could be seen as new that I noticed was using technology to modify DNA, but lets face it, natural selection works to modify DNA already. 


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Will on January 19, 2012, 11:55:40 PM
With the exception of feminism and occasional drug use I believe most everything on this list is either unhealthy or immoral. That said I don't think my morality applies to anyone other than myself, so I would say my position as you define it as tolerance. Possibly avoidance if I felt it wasn't healthy for me to be around, but if someone wants to I'm not going to stand in their way.


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 12:15:52 AM
With the exception of feminism and occasional drug use I believe most everything on this list is either unhealthy or immoral. That said I don't think my morality applies to anyone other than myself, so I would say my position as you define it as tolerance. Possibly avoidance if I felt it wasn't healthy for me to be around, but if someone wants to I'm not going to stand in their way.

A lot of them have been going on for thousands of years, as the cultural norms in various societies around the world.  It is interesting how the cultural norms of where we are raised can influence how other cultural norms are viewed.   


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 01:48:26 AM
I am a traditionalist and a teetotaller, but of course I stand by the non-aggression axiom. I've never really thought to do otherwise, even when I was a minarchist. (As far as bad cultural phenomena, I mean).

As an Anarcho-Monarchist, I don't really see how I could not also be a traditionalist. ;D

I do not, however, subscribe to viewing myself as "conservative"; I view myself as a radical who wants to bring about natural law, i.e., the Libertarian Law Code.


Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 02:55:05 AM
Alright, using your definitions to take the quiz.

    • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/))

    Participance on the equal legal status (as per Natural Law; I do not necessarily support equal statist laws applied to women), with more of a tolerance, perhaps acceptance, for female social equality. I am opposed to egalitarianism - in fact I love inequality - and I believe that male individuals and female individuals often have important differences and voluntary roles to take.

    • Homo and bi-sexuality

    Tolerance. I'm not unwilling to associate with homosexual individuals, but I prefer normal, heterosexual traditions, as they are more Natural. I also might be slightly "homophobic" (to a certain, very negligible degree).  

    • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.

    Avoidance. I would non-aggressively advocate against this idea.

    • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

    ^Same as above

    • Prostitution

    Tolerance. I find the activity very distasteful, but not enough to even advocate passively against, as it has somewhat of a better basis in tradition.

    • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

    Participance. I am an agnostic.

    • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

    Tolerance. Seems very creepy to me, but these activities are so far removed that it would be difficult to advocate against these fetishes anyway. (Plus, people with these fetishes would probably not listen to my advocacy against said fetish).

    • Bestiality: Sex with animals

    Avoidance. As any good person, I would make well known my very stern disapproval of this activity if the opportunity allows. Animals are property, however, so this would of course have legal status in Anarcho-Capitalism. (Unless the person in question was raping someone else's animal).

    • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors

    Tolerance/Avoidance/Resistance. Parents have a non-fee-simple property right in their children, as Rothbard said, so sex with them could constitute violation of a property right. So, both the parents and minor have to consent, for the action to be legal. If there was not parental and minor consent, my feelings would shift to resistance. If the sex was consensual between minors, my sentiment would vary toward tolerance. But if the sex was consensual between mature minors and adults, my feelings would lean far more toward avoidance. (Depending on HOW mature - physically and emotionally - the minor is).

    • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)

    Avoidance/Resistance. See above answer. The only cases where pedophilia would even be legal would be (a) if parents and minor consent and (b) the minor consents with full awareness. (Just saying "yes" doesn't necessarily constitute a full awareness of what you're agreeing to, if you don't know what it is, like a child). My feelings shift to a very, very negative avoidance in the case of hypothetical voluntary pedophilia.

    PS- Self-Owning minors, i.e., those who live on their own property and make their own rules, don't require parental consent.

    • Abortion

    Avoidance. I'd advocate against this activity and shun those who commit this vile act. I'd also advocate for hospitals, etc., to voluntarily ban abortion from their hospitals. My feelings vary to acceptance in certain cases such as rape victims having abortion. The avoidance is more particularly with regards to unnecessary abortions.

    • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

    Tolerance. However, due to the State licensing marriages, my feelings might range more toward a view of acceptance/participance. I refuse to get a marriage license from the State, as that would be degrading. Plus, love itself requires no State license. But if the licenses were private, my stance would be tolerance.

    • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent of all involved.

    Actually more of an acceptance, surprisingly, as long as the relationships are heterosexual. I have no more issue with polygamy or whatever other forms of polyamory than I do with monogamy.

    • Pornography

    Participance. 8)

    • Euthanesia/Suicide

    Acceptance. I don't see anything wrong with someone voluntarily taking his own life when he is in pain or whatnot. However, my stance would be more of a tolerance/avoidance when the suicide or euthanasia seems more unnecessary.

    • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.

    Hm...Not really sure. It's going to depend on the specific modification, for me to have an opinion.

    • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"

    Tolerance. Pointless and degrades the human body.

    • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.

    Avoidance. I am a teetotaller who believes drugs are pointless and have detrimental bodily effects. I'd love to see lots of voluntary advocacy against them, and ostracism against drug users.

    • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine.

    ^Same answer as above, just a little bit stronger sentiment.

    • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

    Avoidance. That's disgusting, and I would advocate strongly against any such incest. My idea of monarchy isn't necessarily hereditary, so don't accuse me of hypocrisy. >_>
    [/list]


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 08:02:37 AM
    Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

    Well look at the drugs for example, if someone were to list it as participant, they would be admitting to a crime in most of the world.  At least a few people on this site expect that what we are posting is at least sifted by the government computers where some of us live.  The laws where I am have been applied to people that haven't even actually done anything.  It hits the news every once in awhile. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 08:47:31 AM
    Seriously? You could get jailed for discussing some of these?

    Well look at the drugs for example, if someone were to list it as participant, they would be admitting to a crime in most of the world.  At least a few people on this site expect that what we are posting is at least sifted by the government computers where some of us live.  The laws where I am have been applied to people that haven't even actually done anything.  It hits the news every once in awhile. 

    Well perhaps I didn't specify that category enough. Participance also means being actively trying to get it accepted. For example petitioning for legal drugs, being a politician and proposing bills etc. It goes further then just accepting it, you actively want to bring about this change. I personally don't feel so strongly about getting drugs legalized, so I wouldn't consider myself participatory.

    I mainly made this post so I can find out how safely I can talk about some of these things. I think I can have some meaningful discussions here even if I wouldn't ever associate with some of the people on this forum.

    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best. Still I'm getting lots of good debating here and would like to continue that regardless of my personal feelings about people here.

    I'm also testing the waters of how anarcho-capitalists and especially Americans feel about these issues. I do have a strong impulse to move to New Hampshire and be with like minded people. But I have no desire to be with people that accept my political philosophy but wouldn't accept me as a person. I want to live in a community where most people are either a friend, colleague or cordial acquaintance.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 08:55:54 AM
    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best. Still I'm getting lots of good debating here and would like to continue that regardless of my personal feelings about people here.

    I'm also testing the waters of how anarcho-capitalists and especially Americans feel about these issues. I do have a strong impulse to move to New Hampshire and be with like minded people. But I have no desire to be with people that accept my political philosophy but wouldn't accept me as a person. I want to live in a community where most people are either a friend, colleague or cordial acquaintance.

    Well Rothbardian also said it wouldn't cross his mind to use force to have others conform to his viewpoint.  I don't think you would run into an ancap, or even a good portion of libertarians that would.  They have done some activism in NH about the drug issue.  They had a smoke out in one of the parks there on a regular basis.  There were so many of them that the police left them alone.  They were not enforcing the drug laws.  Personally I wouldn't want to join in on such activism, as smoke causes me to toss my lunch.  A lot of the other things on that list are not illegal in NH, or anywhere in the country.  A few are expected in most of the country.  


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 09:08:23 AM
    Well Rothbardian also said it wouldn't cross his mind to use force to have others conform to his viewpoint.  I don't think you would run into an ancap, or even a good portion of libertarians that would.  They have done some activism in NH about the drug issue.  They had a smoke out in one of the parks there on a regular basis.  There were so many of them that the police left them alone.  They were not enforcing the drug laws.  A lot of the other things on that list are not illegal in NH, or anywhere in the country.  A few are expected in most of the country.  

    I'm assuming you are a straight masculine man. Probably white and middle to upper class.

    Certainly you might have had your own issues in your past, but you won't have faced nearly the marginalization that some people have faced and you can not understand it. You don't seem to realize how harmful "social violence" is. To me socially enforced slavery is not different from violently enforced slavery, it has the same effect on morale and happiness.

    Though I outwardly present as a straight masculine man, and feel reasonably comfortable doing so, I'm am not quite a straight masculine man. Because of that I have a greater ability to understand the effect of social oppression of woman, gays, transsexuals and other marginalized people.

    P.S. I can't tell you more about what I am, I don't quite know myself. But lets just say it involves a fair bit of gender dysphoria.




    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
    Your right, I have not faced the same social marginalization others undoubtedly have.  I was just thinking the best bet for acceptance is those who don't believe they have the right to say what others do.  What is the alternative, living where people think they should tell you what to do?  The worst of one still seems better than the best of the other.  That said, I am not sure NH is there yet.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best.

    I'm sorry! I did not mean to come across as a dick or anything. Keep in mind that my feelings on most of those matters is not hate (except in a few instances like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.) but rather distaste. It is not like I am going to act like a jerk to any homosexual I meet, nor will I even bring the matter up for discussion. It is more that homosexuals discomfit me (to a certain limited extent) and that does not mean I actively want to discomfit them. Also, where I was using "tolerance," I did not mean that friendship/association is out of the question. I simply meant that I would not try to initiate such relationships, and that I find the activity distasteful.

    In most instances where I used "avoidance," I simply found that the activities were distasteful and deserving counter-advocacy. I'd also be willing to ostracize some people in those groups.

    But, especially where I answered more with "tolerance," it's not like I am going to be actively going around denouncing the activity. Just a distaste, that's all.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: dpalme on January 20, 2012, 12:13:18 PM
    Considering ancap is about non-aggression and all, I would expect most people to at least take a live and let live kind of attitude about this. 

    Yup, as long as other peoples activities aren't harming anyone else (against their will) I don't care what they want to do.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
    Quote
    Your right, I have not faced the same social marginalization others undoubtedly have.  I was just thinking the best bet for acceptance is those who don't believe they have the right to say what others do.  What is the alternative, living where people think they should tell you what to do?  The worst of one still seems better than the best of the other.  That said, I am not sure NH is there yet.

    That depends, if I had to live in a conservative but anarchist community I think I would much prefer a state which is progressive. It's both really important for me and I can't put a priority on either one. They are somewhat linked though and clearly libertarians are fairly progressive in general.

    American conservatism worries me. Coming from a fairly tolerant and progressive country myself. Our biggest "Christian" party has several openly gay members. We do have some hardcore christians but they get pretty much no votes.

    Rothbardian's response makes me believe that I would not get along with him in real life and our relations would be uneasy or strained at best.

    I'm sorry! I did not mean to come across as a dick or anything. Keep in mind that my feelings on most of those matters is not hate (except in a few instances like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.) but rather distaste. It is not like I am going to act like a jerk to any homosexual I meet, nor will I even bring the matter up for discussion. It is more that homosexuals discomfit me (to a certain limited extent) and that does not mean I actively want to discomfit them. Also, where I was using "tolerance," I did not mean that friendship/association is out of the question. I simply meant that I would not try to initiate such relationships, and that I find the activity distasteful.

    In most instances where I used "avoidance," I simply found that the activities were distasteful and deserving counter-advocacy. I'd also be willing to ostracize some people in those groups.

    But, especially where I answered more with "tolerance," it's not like I am going to be actively going around denouncing the activity. Just a distaste, that's all.

    Someone being a "dick" is subjective and an opinion. Certainly you seem like a nice enough person, but your conservatism is clearly in conflict with my cultural progressivism. In fact, it is even somewhat offensive to me, but that probably wasn't intended.  Several things that you find "distasteful" are genetic/biological and not choices. I fall in several categories that you find distasteful.

    My guess it is primarily a lack of understanding and education. Did you grow up in a very conservative environment?   


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 03:14:31 PM
    Well, the first thing to note is that I absolutely do not judge an entire person's character based on the aspect(s) of them which I find distasteful. Well, unless it's one of the really bad characteristics, e.g., pedophilia/bestiality. Such would be a very shallow view, indeed. I do believe in specific character judgements, but why would that overtake my entire view of a person? So, in that sense, I think you and I would find very much agreement. I do not believe in dehumanizing people because of their flaws. (Which I understand - sadly - is exactly what some people who share my views do). I also full well understand that some of those things can be genetic; yet I nonetheless regard them as flaws, perversions of the ideal human being. Note that I say "ideal."

    By the way, I'd probably change my view on transgenders/gender bending to more of a tolerance. Not sure why I put down avoidance. I refuse, however, to consider them the "new role" they have switched to, e.g., I'd refuse to call Bob by his new name of Susan.

    Quote
    My guess it is primarily a lack of understanding and education. Did you grow up in a very conservative environment?
    Actually, no. My father was an atheist and quite liberal; my mother a Christian with probably what you'd describe as a more "culturally progressive" view. I'm simply more of a traditionalist and Old Rightist, so to speak.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: braindead0 on January 20, 2012, 04:40:28 PM
    I was going to respond in detail, however my answer to all of it is the same.  I find the question(s) irrelevant.  I don't belong to any 'culture' to care about it changing, and as far as the specific behaviours listed.. don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with me.. knock yourself out.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 05:00:52 PM
    I took participant as also being an activist or actively advocating. So a participant could be a doctor who performs euthanasia.

    Well perhaps I didn't specify that category enough. Participance also means being actively trying to get it accepted. For example petitioning for legal drugs, being a politician and proposing bills etc. It goes further then just accepting it, you actively want to bring about this change.

    This is why I amended my definitions.  I don't go political, and I am not a doctor, etc.  I don't have a way to actively support these issues, but I more than just say "okay."  I passively support a lot of things. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 20, 2012, 05:22:28 PM
    Feminism: I consider the goals "not possible." I'm not sure where I fit in the categories given. Equality between men and women is a non concept. Men and women are different. It's like saying I want dogs and cats to be "equal." I don't know what that means. I'm fine with women going against old norms/stereotypes (like the expectation of marriage, expectation of quitting work to raise families). I guess I have similar thoughts on race. Overall, my attitude is that we are all humans, and need to respect one another's life and property as such. However, there are differences between humans that I will not "ignore" to satisfy someone else. For example, on average, West Africans are more likely to be elite sprinters, and East Africans are more likely to be elite distance runners. Men are more likely to be able to bench 1.5X their bodyweight, and women are less likely to die of heart disease. People with different heritages/sexes are genetically different and likely to have different strengths. I don't know what it means to call them equal. Some people are better at different things than others. Is a geneticist "equal" to a botanist? The thing that all groups considered have in common is that they are human, and so I respect them as such. If that's what you mean by equality, then yes, I agree. But the way it's phrased, you included "shaming"... which isn't a violation of someone's freedom, so even though I wouldn't necessarily partake in the shaming, I'm not going to go on a moral crusade to tell people they can't. Lol, long response, does that make sense?

    So if you apply this same reasoning down the line, it's almost all acceptance.

    There are only a few more topics worth mentioning from me.

    Pedophilia: If someone has not physically, biologically reached the point where they are sexually mature (regardless of when that happens), then I'm not okay with a sexually mature adult doing anything with them (some people never sexually develop, but that's a different issue). It's a biological fact that until you are sexually mature you can't know or comprehend what sex is or means. You might know physically what happens, but without a sex drive one cannot truly understand it. So I don't think a 5-year old can consent anymore than an infant. However, people are sexually maturing at earlier and earlier ages, and once someone has reached that point, whether it's 13 or 18, then they can "own" their sexuality and can consent to using it. I would use the "avoidance" classification, because I still wouldn't use force against anyone (unless it was my child or family member being abused).

    Gene modification is an avoidance thing for me, and I don't know why. Actually I do. It's because I saw GATTACA. But I'm not willing to use force to stop it.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: derick on January 20, 2012, 08:08:38 PM
    I am neither conservative or progressive. I do not really care for that question because it implies that all people can be lumped into one group or the other. If you believe in the principal of non-aggression how could you be conservative or progressive? as both of them are based in coercion and aggression.

    Murray Rothbard did an excellent job of defining conservatism and progressivism in, Left and Right: The prospects for liberty


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 09:53:51 PM
    I am neither conservative or progressive. I do not really care for that question because it implies that all people can be lumped into one group or the other. If you believe in the principal of non-aggression how could you be conservative or progressive? as both of them are based in coercion and aggression.

    Murray Rothbard did an excellent job of defining conservatism and progressivism in, Left and Right: The prospects for liberty

    You clearly do not understand my post. I'm talking cultural progressivism. There is still social ostracism that can limit the freedom of people.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 09:57:06 PM
    ^Eddy, derick is right. The proper terms would be more like "traditionalism" and, like you said, "cultural progressivism." Libertarians are radicals, not conservatives.

    I really hope I didn't hurt your feelings? Did you read my last post?

    PS- How is someone like myself "limiting your freedom"?


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
    PS- How is someone like myself "limiting your freedom"?

    He wants to avoid social ostracism.  He is just looking for people with similar social values.  

    My own mother cussed me out when I told her I didn't share her religious values.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: derick on January 20, 2012, 10:08:19 PM
    Well in a free society that would be their right as long as they didnt use aggression against another person. Maybe you think we need some sort of authority to make society fair? If I dont like someone, for whatever reason (and I believe that that is my right), I can refuse to do business with that someone. That may not be nice or fair or whatever but that is my right.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 10:11:00 PM
    He didn't say it wasn't your right.  He stated his list of priorities was social acceptance over a "free" society that would ostracize him.  He also seemed to say it is not freedom to face social ostracism.  

    Personally I disagree with that.  I think it can be an unfortunate thing, but unavoidable even in non-free societies.  Ancap is not some magic wonderland that makes everyone like everyone.  It is just the best solution to the issues we face in my opinion.  

    I've been ostracized plenty of times, usually in very rude ways that I still to this day do not understand the reasoning for. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: derick on January 20, 2012, 10:19:00 PM
    He didn't say it wasn't your right.  He stated his list of priorities was social acceptance over a "free" society that would ostracize him.  He also seemed to say it is not freedom to face social ostracism. 

    Personally I disagree with that.  I think it can be an unfortunate thing, but unavoidable even in non-free societies.  Ancap is not some magic wonderland that makes everyone like everyone.  It is just the best solution to the issues we face in my opinion. 

    That was my point. I guess I dont understand how you could be an Ancap and put social acceptance over a free society.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 10:24:14 PM
    That was my point. I guess I dont understand how you could be an Ancap and put social acceptance over a free society.

    I am still not convinced EddyK is ancap.  hehe   He puts up very spirited arguments against it.

    I can understand the desire to have acceptance, especially when looking at the world we live in.  There isn't a thriving ancap country to go to or anything.  We're basically looking at slavery A here, and slavery B there, with one of them liking you and the other hating you.  


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 10:36:41 PM
    He wants to avoid social ostracism.  He is just looking for people with similar social values.

    True, good point. It's really no issue to me. I just feel a bit sad that he said we couldn't hypothetically be good friends, in real life. Are such petty issues worth the dismissal of a whole person?

    Plus, to me, if you're an Anarcho-Capitalist, that trumps (almost) any other flaws which I would find in you. We're comrades, does that not matter most?


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 10:36:54 PM
    He didn't say it wasn't your right.  He stated his list of priorities was social acceptance over a free society that would ostracize him.  

    Quote
    That was my point. I guess I dont understand how you could be an Ancap and put social acceptance over a free society.

    I'm not saying we should put one over the other. Both are important. What most anarcho-capitalists don't realize is that their concept of "freedom" is not enough to unlock human potential. There is another slavery that is debilitating to an individuals morale, happiness and productivity.

    Social slavery is having to conform to social norms and expectations and not being able to be who you are. If you are pressured to fight a battle against your own nature your entire life, can you be truly free?

    Traditionalism is a destructive thing. By socially enforcing people to conform to your ideals you are destroying them psychologically. You are conditioning them to be broken humans that can not ever reach their full potential. If people are not allowed to reach their full potential they will never be as beneficial to your self-interest as they could be. These people will never be as creative, inventive or productive as they could be. Meaning less wealth that you could acquire by trade, fewer inventions that could benefit you personally.

    As an ethical egoist, the concept of traditionalism is utterly irrational to me. But its fairly logical that many people do not see this in the ancap movement, as they have never had to endure social oppression themselves.

    Quote
    PS- How is someone like myself "limiting your freedom"?

    Quote
    I really hope I didn't hurt your feelings?

    Allow me to demonstrate:

    Quote
    By the way, I'd probably change my view on transgenders/gender bending to more of a tolerance. Not sure why I put down avoidance. I refuse, however, to consider them the "new role" they have switched to, e.g., I'd refuse to call Bob by his new name of Susan.

    Rothbardian has no idea of the harm she would be inflicting on people by her proposed behaviour. But I can forgive her because she is just a disgusting tranny. I hope she can understand the irony of what I'm saying here. But I wouldn't expect it, because she is just a dumb fucking cunt.

    Quote
    petty issues

    These issues are not petty, you have to try and understand this. They may seem petty to you because they aren't really any issue to you. But how would you feel in a society where you were socially ostracized if you did not wear a dress, makeup and high heels?






    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: derick on January 20, 2012, 10:44:44 PM
    You are looking for a higher authority to make life fair for you or anyone else that feels wronged by society. We have that authority now, are you saying we need more of it?


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 10:45:58 PM
    Rothbardian has no idea of the harm she would be inflicting on people by her proposed behaviour. But I can forgive her because she is just a disgusting tranny. I hope she can understand the irony of what I'm saying here. But I wouldn't expect it, because she is just a dumb fucking cunt.

    Well, I consider that there are objective genders and gender roles; it is not a matter of subjective opinion. I am objectively a male, so what you are saying makes no sense. (Although I can indeed see the irony of what you are trying to say). But, like I said, you are born either biologically male or female, and that's all there is to it.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
    You are looking for a higher authority to make life fair for you or anyone else that feels wronged by society. We have that authority now, are you saying we need more of it?

    Are you intent on just creating strawmen? Can you please point out where I advocate for authority?

    Quote
    Well, I consider that there are objective genders and gender roles; it is not a matter of subjective opinion. I am objectively a male, so what you are saying makes no sense. (Although I can indeed see the irony of what you are trying to say). But, like I said, you are born either biologically male or female, and that's all there is to it.

    It makes no sense because you are ill informed on the subject.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 10:48:25 PM
    These issues are not petty, you have to try and understand this. They may seem petty to you because they aren't really any issue to you. But how would you feel in a society where you were socially ostracized if you did not wear a dress, makeup and high heels?

    Presuming I am female in this hypothetical scenario, I'd conform to the tradition. It actually does sound like a good tradition to me anyway; it would be nice to bring back.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 10:50:09 PM
    Presuming I am female in this hypothetical scenario, I'd conform to the tradition. It actually does sound like a good tradition to me anyway; it would be nice to bring back.

    You are your current self. You are pressured  to wear a  dress, makeup and high heels. No one will talk to you, they will verbally abuse you and not do business with you. How would this make you feel? Would you be free?



    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 10:56:58 PM
    You are your current self. You are pressured  to wear a  dress, makeup and high heels. No one will talk to you, they will verbally abuse you and not do business with you. How would this make you feel? Would you be free?

    Well, that doesn't make any sense. That's not pressuring for tradition (my belief), but that's pressuring against my tradition (against my beliefs).

    I'd be fine with being pressured to wear a suit and tie, as traditional roles would dictate.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 11:03:16 PM
    Well, that doesn't make any sense. That's not pressuring for tradition (my belief), but that's pressuring against my tradition (against my beliefs).

    I'd be fine with being pressured to wear a suit and tie, as traditional roles would dictate.

    You really do not get it do you? I'm saying you should try to imagine living in a society where this is the tradition. And you personally want to wear a suit and tie. But if you chose to do so, you would be ostracized.

    Try to imagine living in a society that is completely in conflict with your beliefs. How would you feel?


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 11:06:10 PM
    Oh, if it was firmly established as the tradition for my role, I would accept it. ;D I believe in voluntary traditionalism; but, in the real world, less absurd and very nice traditions are what have actually developed.

    (Sorry, I misunderstood your hypothetical).


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 11:13:05 PM
    Rothbardian, what if you didn't know what your role was?  What if you had no indication on your body that would lead you to believe it was one or the other?  What if no one could tell you?   What if everyone was afraid of you because of that?  What if you couldn't make friends because everyone was afraid of you? 

    This has happened to people. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 11:22:01 PM
    Well, I'd accept whatever the traditionally proper role for a person such as myself was. For example, if I hypothetically had transgender inclinations, I'd accept whatever the traditional role for my birth gender is.  Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 11:28:40 PM
    Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.

    Would you want people to hate you due to your acceptance of that role?  Do you think it would be a good thing for you if the tradition involved people with that role to be kicked out of society?  Would you consider that a traditional role in the first place if the society that has it doesn't accept you?  Would you consider yourself part of the society that rejected you?  Would you still give a crap about their traditions?   


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 20, 2012, 11:31:06 PM
    Quote
    Well, I'd accept whatever the traditionally proper role for a person such as myself was. For example, if I hypothetically had transgender inclinations, I'd accept whatever the traditional role for my birth gender is.  Unless the established tradition was hypothetically to be a transgender, in which case I'd accept that.

    It's very easy to accept the tradition when it privileges you. It's very easy to not see your privilege when you consider it "normal". I hope you do not believe empathy is exclusively part of the female role, you could really do well by trying to empathize a little bit more.

    I'm going to call it a night because I am so frustrated I am about to start throwing around expletives. If you want to know how I feel right now: Imagine you are trying to convince the most "patriotic" statist you have ever met. No matter how clearly you make your case he just doesn't get it. Imagine how frustrating that conversation would be. Thats how this conversation feels for me.

    And yes, if you continue to hold your current beliefs we would not be friends. If you are truly interested in finding out why I am so offended by what you are saying then I suggest you do some more research into transgenderism.





    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 11:36:01 PM
    Would you want people to hate you due to your acceptance of that role?  Do you think it would be a good thing for you if the tradition involved people with that role to be kicked out of society?  Would you consider that a traditional role in the first place if the society that has it doesn't accept you?  Would you consider yourself part of the society that rejected you?  Would you still give a crap about their traditions?

    1). If it was the established tradition, they would not hate me.

    2). That would be fine, I suppose?

    3). I'm confused by this question.

    4). If I was following tradition, why would the society reject me?

    5). Yes, or - I'd start a new community in which my own traditions would be developed.



    EddyK- I'm not ignorant. I've even watched documentaries on transgenderism before.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 20, 2012, 11:48:16 PM
    And yes, if you continue to hold your current beliefs we would not be friends.

    Well, I don't judge my views of individuals based on one perceived flaw, as aforementioned. :(

    For example, I may see homosexuality as being a flaw, but that doesn't mean I hate homosexual individuals. I'm even willing to be their friends. I am not applying a collectivist approach here. Perhaps you should reread my sentiments?

    It's sad that you would place so much emphasis on what you perceive as my flaw (traditionalism) that you could not be friends with me, while I would be willing to put aside your flaws (transgenderism perhaps?) and be friends with you. It's very ironic actually. You seem to be assuming that I simply hate people who have these flaws, which is not the case, thankfully. I'm not a bigot, but a traditionalist.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 20, 2012, 11:52:23 PM
    The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.  It is like saying it is a flaw that I can get sun-burnt, or because my eyes are a certain color.  

    People see these "flaws" and use it as an excuse to ostracize people that have done no harm to anyone. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 21, 2012, 12:01:15 AM
    Quote
    The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.
     
    But that's a view of so-called "equality," otherwise known as egalitarianism. I believe in traditional inequality. I like the old traditions of Western civilization, particularly English traditions.

    In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would act towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 12:14:34 AM
    Quote
    In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would be towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.

    Obesity is largely genetic and not necessarily unhealthy.


    Well, I don't judge my views of individuals based on one perceived flaw, as aforementioned. :(

    For example, I may see homosexuality as being a flaw, but that doesn't mean I hate homosexual individuals. I'm even willing to be their friends. I am not applying a collectivist approach here. Perhaps you should reread my sentiments?

    It's sad that you would place so much emphasis on what you perceive as my flaw (traditionalism) that you could not be friends with me, while I would be willing to put aside your flaws (transgenderism perhaps?) and be friends with you. It's very ironic actually.

    You seem to be assuming that I simply hate people who have these flaws, which is not the case, thankfully. I'm not a bigot, but a traditionalist.

    It's okay. I actually think there is hope for you. I know that you simply can not understand. You are not me. You have been told that these things are somehow not natural and that they are not biological.

    Just the fact that you state them as being "flaws" is incredibly offensive. Most LGBT people would treat you with extreme contempt. They would see you as an enemy.

    Because I am fairly empathic I can totally understand where you are coming from. I'm not hostile towards you, but towards (some of) your beliefs.

    Quote
    transgenderism perhaps?

    I'm guessing that it was pretty obvious. I might as well confirm it. I do as a matter of fact consider myself transgender. You have to realize that there are various degrees. For some transgenders it is sex-reassignment or suicide, there are literally no other options for them and these are the ones that often get the hormone treatment and surgery. I am certainly not transgendered to that degree and generally quite happy living as a male.

    There is serious discomfort at times though, not to mention social and psychological problems. Hormones and SRS have been seriously considered in the past, but until now always rejected as an option. There are times when these options seem ridiculous to me as well. I'm very likely to live my entirely life as a male, but these feelings will never go away. They are biological and I must find other ways to express them. But if I had the choice right now between a "real" female body and a "real" male body the choice is easily made.

    It's not all bad though. My unusual combination of traditionally feminine and masculine character traits have made me the person I am today. And I consider all of my characteristics valuable. This is why I fight tradition. If you try and stamp people into molds you are wasting their uniqueness.

    I hope that in time you will come to understand this.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 21, 2012, 12:27:31 AM
    Quote
    The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.
     
    But that's a view of so-called "equality," otherwise known as egalitarianism. I believe in traditional inequality. I like the old traditions of Western civilization, particularly English traditions.

    In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would be towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.

    I discriminate all the time, but not for arbitrary reasons.  I don't hire people that show up to an interview drunk for example.  I have hired convicts, drug users, physically/mentally handicapped, but they were not going to harm my business.  

    How far back are you going to follow this tradition?  It is traditional inequality that says slavery is A-OK.  It is tradition for the government to steal from me.  It was old english tradition to rape women on their wedding night in countries they occupied.  Just because something is/was tradition does not make it a good tradition.  Some traditions have no place for certain people.  If there is no place for you in the tradition, or it is harmful to you, there is no reason to accept the tradition.  There is no reason to accept the society.  

    I think I am done with this too.  


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Rothbardian on January 21, 2012, 12:42:05 AM
    @Eddy-

    Hm...You know, I really can empathize with that. :(

    I entirely agree with your view that transgenderism, homosexuality, etc., are biological. That much is obvious. Whoever says otherwise is an idiot and a liar, of course. (Although there is some personal choice in the matter, but that's aside from the overall point).

    But I still believe that traditionally there are biological flaws, e.g., being born with 5 arms. Please take no offence! I'm probably far removed from the kind of people who have acted unkindly to you in the past; you seem to be consolidating my view with theirs'. Please note that my view does not advocate ostracism against transgenders, as it does against other groups (e.g., pedophiles). That was a mistake I glossed over when I originally went over the quiz, and was just an accident.

    I am sorry if I've offended you and whatnot. :-\


    @Syock-

    I only accept voluntary traditions.



    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Syock on January 21, 2012, 07:48:03 AM
    @Syock-

    I only accept voluntary traditions.

    Too bad traditions don't really work that way. 


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: derick on January 21, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
    EddyK, I would be your friend. I do my best to judge people by their character but I am not perfect. I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

    I am sorry that I misunderstood you.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 10:09:48 AM
    EddyK, I would be your friend. I do my best to judge people by their character but I am not perfect. I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

    I am sorry that I misunderstood you.

    It's okay. But if I keep quiet about this then people will never understand how "hurtful" their opinions and statements are.

    I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

    I am sorry that I misunderstood you.

    The main problem is misunderstanding. People don't understand it because they have been taught it is "wrong" and "disgusting". They can't imagine anyone "choosing" these things. The reality is, there is no choice. You can't choose who you are.

    It's understandably to be "weirded out". It's because you've been brainwashed by society into thinking you need to be and act a certain way because you are a man or woman. You project this onto others and if they do not conform you are likely to reject them.

    I feel the same way about consensual adult incest actually. It weirds me out a little and even feels a little wrong. But I can't see how it would be "immoral" or "harmful". Romantic love is natural, even if it so happens to be with your brother or sister. The only reason it could be undesirable is for the fact that there is a slightly (I think its like 1-2% or so) increased chance of genetic defects, but these days does it even matter? Sex or romantic love is no longer so much about making children then it was in the past.


    Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
    Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 12:50:51 PM
      Quote
      • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/))

      Partcipance.

      Quote
      • Homo and bi-sexuality

      Partcipance.
      Quote
      • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.
      Partcipance.

      Quote
      • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

      Partcipance.

      Quote
      • Prostitution

      Acceptance

      Quote
      • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

      Participance

      Quote
      • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

      Acceptance.

      Quote
      • Bestiality: Sex with animals

      Tolerance.  Avoidance when it's clearly animal abuse.

      Quote
      • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors

      Acceptance.

      Quote
      • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)

      Tolerance to a certain degree when there is apparent consent. Avoidance or Resistance in more extreme cases.

      Quote
      • Abortion

      Acceptance

      Quote
      • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

      Participance.

      Quote
      • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent
      • of all involved.

      Acceptance or Participance. Not quite sure if I can deal with non-monogamous relationships, I'd be willing to try.

      Quote
      • Pornography

      Participance. (In consumption :P)

      Quote
      • Euthanesia/Suicide

      Acceptance.

      Quote
      • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.
      Acceptance.
      Quote
      • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"
      Acceptance.
      Quote
      • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.
      Acceptance.
      Quote
      • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine
      Acceptance.
      Quote
      • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

      Acceptance.










      [/list]


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 21, 2012, 12:57:41 PM
      Having read through this conversation, I think the hangup is on Rothbardian's concept of the "ideal" person. Think about how subjective that is. You say the ideal man is straight and obeys traditional male gender roles. Do you think that your sexual and gender identity has played a role helping you draw that conclusion? If you were born otherwise, do you think you would feel differently? What does an ideal person even mean? Ideal for what?

      I think you're taking tradition and putting it on a pedestal and calling it ideal. Syock has adequately refuted this concept (government is a tradition).

      Look, we're all born, we're all different, and we all die. What we do in between is how we assign meaning to our own lives. Their certainly isn't any objective barometer for determining the "correct" or "ideal" lifestyle.

      I think you probably offend EddyK when you compare being transgender to having 5 arms. This is not really fair. One case just means that he was born with different preferences than you, but is fully capable of functioning and living his life, since he has an able body. In the other case, he would have a serious medical condition that would likely leave him disabled, and everyday things would be an extreme challenge. Maybe the line between differences and impairments isn't always clear, but I think we have chosen examples here that are far enough apart so as to be useful.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 02:47:03 PM
      Having read through this conversation, I think the hangup is on Rothbardian's concept of the "ideal" person. Think about how subjective that is. You say the ideal man is straight and obeys traditional male gender roles. Do you think that your sexual and gender identity has played a role helping you draw that conclusion? If you were born otherwise, do you think you would feel differently? What does an ideal person even mean? Ideal for what?


      That he describes it as flaws is very offensive. To me they are simply part of my identity. I'm perfectly happy with them and wouldn't want to be any other way. If you offered me a cure to be a perfectly masculine man I would reject, even though I would probably be happier (no dysphoria, no social opression). I actually consider my traditionally feminine traits to be perks and desirable parts of my personality, in fact more so then most of my traditionally male traits.  I particularly value my ability for empathy that is typically considered a "female" thing and lack of aggression and dominance that is typically considered "male".

      I think my ability for logic ("male trait") and my ability to empathize ("female trait") combine well to allow me to assess a situation objectively using logic and reason and from someone else's subjective perspective using empathy and psychology. The downside is that there is always a conflict between them.

      Quote
      I think you're taking tradition and putting it on a pedestal and calling it ideal. Syock has adequately refuted this concept (government is a tradition).

      I have my doubts about about traditionalists anarchists. For me anarchy is all about rejecting tradition and using logic and "science" to draw your own conclusions. Sometimes these conclusions might coincide with tradition. But often they will lead to a rejection of tradition.

      Quote
      Look, we're all born, we're all different, and we all die. What we do in between is how we assign meaning to our own lives. Their certainly isn't any objective barometer for determining the "correct" or "ideal" lifestyle.

      By trying to get people to conform to a certain lifestyle, you are killing diversity. By doing so you shoot yourself in the proverbial foot, because diversity leads to creativity and that leads to innovation. If you limit yourself to tradition you are narrowing your perspective. It's like wearing blinders.

      Quote
      I think you probably offend EddyK when you compare being transgender to having 5 arms. This is not really fair. One case just means that he was born with different preferences than you, but is fully capable of functioning and living his life, since he has an able body. In the other case, he would have a serious medical condition that would likely leave him disabled, and everyday things would be an extreme challenge. Maybe the line between differences and impairments isn't always clear, but I think we have chosen examples here that are far enough apart so as to be useful.

      The offensive is calling it a flaw, especially when the person in question does not see it that way. 5 arms, if fully functional, might be useful in certain cases and not be a disability at all.

      Even people with a so called physical disability have a tremendous potential to contribute to society. These people have a vastly different perspective on the world. Their attempts to conquer challenges us "able" people never have to face leads to innovation and ideas that greatly benefit all of humanity. While we marginalize the disabled we do not realize the potential that their alternate perspective has. Just because birds can fly and humans can't doesn't mean we are flawed animals. Labeling disability as a flaw is potentially destructive to society as a whole.

      I would like that add that while I now have a thick skin, this is only the result of working hard on accepting myself and building self-confidence. Which was greatly destroyed by bullying during childhood. Even back then the "boys" felt that I was really different. I never understood why i was bullied until now.

      Often we unintentionally harm peoples self-confidence, most people don't realize how hurting some of the things they say and do are. A good example is "rough jokes" made by boys. I was often punched in high school, followed by a hurtful comment. To me it felt like bullying. To most of the people involved it was a joke, one that they constantly pulled on other kids. I didn't get this until I was about 15 and I occasionally came home crying in my early years in high school. I just didn't understand why people were being so "mean" to me.

      I never quite understood the typical "male" social interactions in childhood, I could not identify with boys. I always identified with girls more, but the typical girl/boy split (based on biological sex) in elementary school left me unable to interact with them. You know the whole: girls are stupid, boys are lame paradigm. It's really harmful.

      It's only when the rigid gender boundaries evaporated in high school that I started socializing. But at this point I was very "withdrawn" and shy. And to the girls I interacted with I was always a "boy" because of my biological sex.

      As I experienced puberty and began to understand the physical differences between boys and girls, I was pushed into associating with guys more, and taking on a typically male role. I actually became less socially awkward. I had good interactions with girls. But I couldn't associate with girls as 'friends', that just wasn't socially acceptable. Unless it was in a sexual predatory and dominant fashion, which i had absolutely no interest in. I was expected to interact with girls in a male way, but I couldn't do that. It lead to me being 'shy' and 'scared' of girls, because I did not know how to interact with them. I still have certain problems to this day when interacting with girls as a "guy". Physical contact is extremely frightening for me, as I have no desire to express a dominant sexuality towards them, but I am afraid that I might unintentionally do that, because it is expected of me as a man to only really be interested in them sexually. Even things like hugs, cheek kisses and even hand shaking are extremely uncomfortable for me. I'm afraid of doing something 'sexual' and 'inappropriate'.

      The existence of these traditional 'gender roles' and the expectation of me to follow them have traumatized me. I was unable to socially interact in the way I desire and still am to some degree, simply because I am a biological male. My sexual fantasies and desires about women have never been about "taking them". They are about being or becoming them. Being treated like them. Being treated like the person I AM. I used to deceive myself into think I was the male in the fantasies and that I was "taking" the girl. But in reality I was the girl. This deception led to further confusion. I told myself that I was the male in my fantasies, but I knew I couldn't behave like a typical male. So I projected the male role onto the woman. The women in my fantasies were always dominant and male was submissive (I thought I was the male). This led to an extremely counter-cultural view on women. An inversion of the tradition where I view males as submissive and females as dominant.

      While most biological humans match their expected roles, not all of them do. I have a traditionally female 'sexuality', it's about getting attention and being loved and wanted. Not the traditionally male 'sexuality' that is about conquering and dominating and being admired. There is nothing wrong with either form of sexuality, both are completely natural. The problem is that I am expected to have a different sexuality then I actually have.

      So we arrive at my current situation. Where on one hand I want to be accepted by society, so I must be dominant. On the other hand I want to have the social status that is only granted to women.

      This leads me to the confusing conclusion that I need to have a female body to finally be able to be myself AND to be able to fulfill my expected dominant role. (Remember that I projected the dominant role on women, because I could not imagine myself, a man, being dominant).

      The desire to become a woman isn't a result of wanting to have a female body and the associated "girl parts". The desire comes from the fact that in order to fulfill the expectations of society and still be myself, I MUST HAVE a female body and the associated "girl parts". I'm not a woman trapped in a mans body. I am an individual trapped in the expectations associated with a mans body.

      The reason why I will probably never do the MtF transition is because I do not believe that it will finally give me the social status that I desire, the social status of a woman. The transition will merely give me the social status of a trans-woman, which is a potentially less desirable status to me then being a man. (because lets face it, acceptance for trans-people is pretty much non-existent)

      The only solutions I have are either:

      • Society changes in a way that I can attain my desired social status in my current body, I keep my current male body
      • I change my body from male to female, I get female social status

      Neither are realistic options in the current society. I am left dealing with the resulting dysphoria of possibly never being able to attain my desired social status. Which as you can probably understand not very "healthy".

      P.S. sorry, the post became sort of longer then I expected.




      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 21, 2012, 03:53:08 PM
      Well, as you've said before, we can't truly understand what you're going through. We can try, but it's not exactly the same thing.

      What you've described here isn't what I think of when I think of someone being transgender, but I guess I don't really know. It sounded like you still fantasized about being with a woman, with your male body, but just with nontraditional roles. Some women like to "be in control" or "dominate" men when they have sex. Having submissive tendencies doesn't automatically make you gay or transgender.

      I am a male, and I'm putting in effort to understand and empathize with you, that doesn't make me gay or transgender. Not everyone has to display every type of stereotypical gender role. Not all straight men are violent wifebeaters, not all straight women are sweet and polite.

      I'm not trying to challenge you here, it's just that you said yourself you were confused, so I'm giving you something to think about. I hope none of this sounded offensive, I'm legitimately trying to understand you.....but you might have to display some patience, straight men are bad at empathizing!!!


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: David Giessel on January 21, 2012, 04:28:57 PM
      But I still believe that traditionally there are biological flaws, e.g., being born with 5 arms.

      Shows what you know. One man's flaw is another man's goddess. Subjective Theory of Everything (SToE) all up in your face ... again! :-)

      http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/11/18/hindu-goddess-born-with-4-legs-and-4-arms/


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 04:32:13 PM
      Well, as you've said before, we can't truly understand what you're going through. We can try, but it's not exactly the same thing.

      What you've described here isn't what I think of when I think of someone being transgender, but I guess I don't really know. It sounded like you still fantasized about being with a woman, with your male body, but just with nontraditional roles. Some women like to "be in control" or "dominate" men when they have sex. Having submissive tendencies doesn't automatically make you gay or transgender.

      But that is the point, according to society being submissive means you are not a "male". I was never allowed to be myself, so I started learning ways in which I can be myself. I think this is exactly what it means to be transgender.

      Quote
      I am a male, and I'm putting in effort to understand and empathize with you, that doesn't make me gay or transgender. Not everyone has to display every type of stereotypical gender role. Not all straight men are violent wifebeaters, not all straight women are sweet and polite.

      But that is the point, this is exactly what society expects. Even though we are all "equal" by law, there are certain behavioral expectations of men. I did not conform and now seek to find a way in which I can be myself.

      Quote
      I'm not trying to challenge you here, it's just that you said yourself you were confused, so I'm giving you something to think about. I hope none of this sounded offensive, I'm legitimately trying to understand you.....but you might have to display some patience, straight men are bad at empathizing!!!

      It is my theory that all transgender folks are simply individuals who's character more closely matches that of the opposing gender role. This is why there are degrees of transgenderism. Some men have a mind that is almost completely like  the average female.

      I can't be sure that there isn't some actual desire to also have a female body. There are certain things that only CAN be done by having such a body. It might be the only way of fulfilling the desired social role.

      Personally I think there are a number of factors that cause people to be transgendered. But it is my firm believe that all transgenders are seeking a way to fulfill their desired role in society. For some this means they MUST transition at all costs. There are many people with similar theories, but I am basing this purely on my situation.

      You have to realize that gender is almost a completely artificial construct. There is some biological influence, but it is minimal.





      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 21, 2012, 05:35:19 PM
      Shows what you know. One man's flaw is another man's goddess. Subjective Theory of Everything (SToE) all up in your face ... again! :-)

      I don't believe that though. I believe that there is an objective reality, which forms subjective human experiences. It doesn't matter if the hindus think that 4 arms make a goddess; four arms is still objectively a mutation and an abnormality when contrasted to the typical man.

      You seem to think I was implying that having five arms would always be objectively bad, which isn't necessarily the case.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 21, 2012, 05:42:09 PM
      I don't believe that though. I believe that there is an objective reality, which forms subjective human experiences. It doesn't matter if the hindus think that 4 arms make a goddess; four arms is still objectively a mutation and an abnormality when contrasted to the typical man.

      Humanity as a species is formed by mutation starting with the mutation of single celled organisms. The objection is against you labeling such things as flaws, as it it is an inherently bad thing.

      Obviously it is not according to the "norm". us anarchists are also not part of the "norm". We are an abnormality. Are we a flaw? Am I a flaw simply for not meeting the standard of what is normal for men?


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 07:27:32 AM
      I sort of feel afraid to answer your questions. I feel, in fact, that my traditionalist opinions are being ostracized. The whole discussion has made me feel embarrassed and basically like a huge jerk, even though I still hold my beliefs. :-\

      I'm a bit offended that anyone could consider the State "tradition," or present that as an argument. For, indeed, the State is not the tradition of the people: the State runs counter to all of man's traditions. Man's traditions tend to be voluntarily based and based upon the Non-Aggression Axiom. The State is not our tradition; it is a gang of thieves writ large. While the abstract paradigm of the State is perhaps tradition, private people do not actively have a tradition of aggression. (Simply because I am a traditionalist does not mean I have to think ALL tradition is good: like I said, voluntary traditions). There is Libertarian tradition (what I espouse), and what the Statists espouse is very different.

      I'd probably consider you as having a flaw - to be honest - but I'm a naturally very tolerant person. I probably would not say that to your face even. In a sense, therefore, we have faced the same problem; modern society ostracizes some of my views as to what flaws are and aren't. For instance, it would unfortunately be extremely offensive for me to share that I think of homosexuality as a flaw, so I have to keep that to myself. I just believe in normal men and women living in a voluntary society. That's all. It's nothing to really be taken with offence. I believe that the Individual - such as yourself - triumphs over any flaws he might have. I also have flaws. The Individual, to me, is supreme, so one flaw in a person does not account for his whole character. A petty thief (flawed according to tradition and libertarian theory) could hypothetically be a relatively good person in other aspects of his life. A retarded person - while flawed - could be a great Individual as the sum of his character. Multiple flaws - or single very egregious flaws - would tend to make me consider a person very poorly. I'd consider your flaws as so small that it hardly matters: almost as small as my flaws, which hardly matter. You seem to be assuming I make a huge deal about it: perhaps because it's a huge deal to you. I hardly give a shit about sexuality, to be honest; while very heterosexual myself, for example, I don't give two craps about relationships. I prefer keeping to myself: being a single Individual. In that sense, I care about these things far less than you. If you took a similar approach, perhaps you too could transcend the societal barriers which have limited you. (I honestly make that as a helpful comment, having read your whole story, but feel free to ignore it).

      I'm also offended as to your thoughts on us traditionalist anarchists. Rothbard, the great Old Rightist, founded the anarcho-capitalist movement after all. In my opinion, anarcho-capitalism can best be understood as a socially traditional - but radical - movement. At least that's the way I perceive it.

      Anarchists aren't flawed because we conform to the natural traditions of the private sector: Natural Law.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: David Giessel on January 22, 2012, 03:07:53 PM
      I don't believe that though. I believe that there is an objective reality, which forms subjective human experiences.
      ...
      Anarchists aren't flawed because we conform to the natural traditions of the private sector: Natural Law.

      Just because you believe there is an objective reality doesn't mean there's an objective basis for that belief. Your words betray you in fact. You believe there is an objective reality. I could believe that the extra-limbed baby is a goddess. The difference lies solely in perspective.
      ...
      Isn't your understanding of and belief in Natural Law subjective at its core?


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Martin Brock on January 22, 2012, 04:16:08 PM
      Most of these issues are hot button diversions for politicians, but I'll play along anyway.

      Quote
      Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming)
      "Feminism" is a highly political term, and I don't much identify with it. Men and women belong to the same species and have very similar abilities, but the few differences, like giving birth, are highly significant.

      Sluttiness is hardly exclusive to women, so slut shaming has nothing to do with gender equality per se. The "double standard" is a product of actual gender differences. My mother policed sluttiness far more than my father. If one gender imposes this standard on the other, women impose it on men, perhaps rightly so.

      Needless to say (around here), the only impediment to anyone's employment in any profession should be the free market.

      Quote
      Homo and bi-sexuality
      Acceptance. I have participated but not enough or recently enough to qualify as a participant.

      Quote
      Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.
      Acceptance. I could hardly care less.

      Quote
      Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.
      Acceptance.
      It's none of my business, but if a friend asked me about surgery for this purpose, I'd advise him to think long and hard about it.

      Quote
      Prostitution
      Acceptance. I've never employed a prostitute, and I'd advise a friend considering it (either selling sex or buying it) to be careful.

      Quote
      Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.
      Acceptance. Religous practice could encompass almost anything, so I refer only to religious belief and ceremony here.

      Quote
      Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM Necrophilia.
      Tolerance.
      I accept almost anything between consenting adults, but in some cases, I support a high standard of proof for consent.

      Quote
      Bestiality: Sex with animals
      Tolerance
      Sex with animals raises consent, cruelty and public health issues, but I wouldn't jail anyone for it. I would out someone.

      Quote
      Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors
      Avoidance/Resistance
      Define "sexually mature". I support an age of consent. The line is always arbitrary, but respecting it is not an onerous burden for anyone.
      If two minors violate the proscription, I would advise their parents to chastise and separate them, and I would shun parents permitting it.
      If an adult violates the proscription with a minor, I would resist the adult.

      Quote
      Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)
      Resistance

      Quote
      Abortion
      Acceptance in some circumstances. Avoidance or resistance in others.

      Quote
      Free love: sex outside or before marriage.
      Acceptance. I am monogamous myself.

      Quote
      Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent of all involved.
      Acceptance.

      Quote
      Pornography
      Participance.

      Quote
      Euthanesia/Suicide
      I would commit suicide in some circumstances, and I would assist a suicide in some circumstances. I would resist euthanasia beyond assisted suicide, but withdrawing artificial life support is not euthanasia.

      Quote
      Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.
      It's a very broad and thoroughly unexplored category, so any conclusion I've reached at this point is meaningless.

      Quote
      Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"
      Acceptance.

      Quote
      Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.
      Acceptance. I have participated but not recently enough to be a participant; however, I would participate again in some circumstances, like if you offered it to me a toke right now.

      Quote
      Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine
      Acceptance/Tolerance. I would not automatically shun a person using hard drugs. I might intervene.

      Quote
      Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives
      Acceptance. But my sister is not remotely sexy.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
      You believe there is an objective reality...

      I could take out the words "I believe" and it would still be true. It would simply make me come across as an overconfident jerk. I only used "I believe" because I don't want to be perceived too negatively here.

      Libertarianism is a fact and not an opinion. But, you see, if I state that without "I believe," I come across as a jerk.

      Quote
      Isn't your understanding of and belief in Natural Law subjective at its core?

      No. Rothbard explains this in Ethics of Liberty.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 22, 2012, 05:22:29 PM
      If you think there is an objective reality, I suggest you look up the paradox where the moving train exactly the length of a tunnel gets closed inside of the tunnel. What happens is different depending on where the observer is at!!! Were the doors closed simultaneously? It depends who you ask!!! Reality is definitely not objective, relativistic physics being the main piece of evidence.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 06:05:23 PM
      Relativism in physics certainly does not contradict the concept of an objective reality. Simply because I am moving 30km/sec relative to sun, and about 0km/sec relative to the Earth's ground does not make reality subjective. ;D

      I am objectively moving 30km/sec relative to the sun, and objectively moving 0km/sec relative to the Earth. And that's the objective reality of it all. To deny these as objective facts is nihilistic.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
      That depends, if I had to live in a conservative but anarchist community I think I would much prefer a state which is progressive.

       :-\ This is perhaps the saddest thing that has been said in this thread, in my opinion. I'd much rather live in a socially progressive anarchist community than a traditionalist but statist community. Even though the socially progressive anarchist community would ostracize/oppress me for my opinions, it would be better than anyone such as yourself being oppressed with State aggression.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 22, 2012, 07:01:29 PM
      I too would choose anarchism over any flavor of statism.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 22, 2012, 07:16:32 PM
      Yes, that is not a hard choice when you are being privileged by the tradition. I seem to remember a certain thread wondering why most anarcho-capitalists are straight white males. I believe I might understand why that is the case.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 07:30:45 PM
      It is an easy choice, or so I believe. I'd rather have a society that oppresses me and my traditionalism (voluntarily) than one which oppresses you aggressively.

      In other words, I'd rather have a society in which I am the unprivileged and socially scorned than where you are aggressed upon. Seriously, in the society you want, I'm the guy who would be socially frowned upon. So this goes both ways.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: JustSayNoToStatism on January 22, 2012, 07:38:35 PM
      Yes, that is not a hard choice when you are being privileged by the tradition. I seem to remember a certain thread wondering why most anarcho-capitalists are straight white males. I believe I might understand why that is the case.
      I actually don't understand why that is the case. If you are a member of any minority group, you should oppose all centralized power that would be able to oppress you. Market anarchism is, as stef says, extending humanity to formerly mistreated groups. Blacks, gays, people who use experimental drugs, plant based medicines, and children... these people have all been mistreated, or are mistreated today. Give them the power to free themselves, ie, take away the power of others to oppress them.

      In fact, if straight white males are the ones who "benefit from the system" why would that make us more likely to be market anarchists....We should support the status quo if the world really operates along these social divisions.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 22, 2012, 08:35:43 PM
      I actually don't understand why that is the case. If you are a member of any minority group, you should oppose all centralized power that would be able to oppress you. Market anarchism is, as stef says, extending humanity to formerly mistreated groups. Blacks, gays, people who use experimental drugs, plant based medicines, and children... these people have all been mistreated, or are mistreated today. Give them the power to free themselves, ie, take away the power of others to oppress them.

      In fact, if straight white males are the ones who "benefit from the system" why would that make us more likely to be market anarchists....We should support the status quo if the world really operates along these social divisions.

      Because anarchists take it one step further and include social liberty in their agenda. Which is why it is generally more attractive to non-privileged individuals.

      I'm not making a value judgment about anarcho-capitalism. I'm just stating the conclusion I've drawn from my observations.

      Quote
      In other words, I'd rather have a society in which I am the unprivileged and socially scorned than where you are aggressed upon.

      Yes, you are going to be socially oppressed if you try to socially oppress others. But you won't be socially scorned for who you are in a progressive society. You will obviously be scorned for homo and trans-phobia.

      But you aren't exactly the one having to deal with hurtful slurs and violence simply for being who you are in our current society, are you?


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 09:04:52 PM
      Where in the world did I say I want to socially oppress anyone? It's more of a "I prefer my own kind thing," than a hatred sort of thing. So, some things to keep in mind: (a) I don't hate anyone solely on the basis of one flaw; (b) I would use neither hurtful slurs nor violence against individuals who I personally believe have a flaw; (c) I'm far more opposed to the infiltration of Western culture than I am to homosexuals or transgenders, who I'm not really opposed to at all, so I'm a reactionary and not a bigot; (d) I'd personally act against anyone who would choose to use hurtful slurs against you, especially if they did so to your face; (e) although I prefer my own kind, I'd be very friendly to individuals such as yourself, with basically no judgement; (f) I'd be supportive of the formation of more progressive societies in Anarcho-Capitalism, i.e., individuals voluntarily choosing to be more comfortable around their own ilk; (g) if this wasn't explicitly made clear already, being a political comrade makes someone an automatic friend of mine, at least if their flaws are not too egregious.

      Yes, I'm not the guy who has had to deal with the issues you have had to deal with. But I'm naturally a very withdrawn and non-social person, so - to empathize - perhaps if I was you I wouldn't care about the issues in the first place.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 22, 2012, 09:12:05 PM
      Yes, I'm not the guy who has had to deal with the issues you have had to deal with. But I'm naturally a very withdrawn and non-social person, so - to empathize - perhaps if I was you I wouldn't care about the issues in the first place.

      I get where you are coming from. I never intended to say that I like statism. But it is my belief that social oppression is a tool that is keeping statism alive. Both types of freedom are linked. I just value one slightly more. I am a very social person. If I wasn't I wouldn't be trying to get socially accepted as a woman. But I care very much about being socially accepted as who I am.

      I might be a little bit aggressive on this point, but I'm actually holding back. When you told me I had flaws I was actually really mad. It turns out you didn't really intend it to be as offensive as it sounded, but it still hurt a bit.



      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 09:32:43 PM
      I'm not really sure if I meant it myself, to be honest. :-\ If it's a flaw, like I said, it's a very minor one, on a level of my own flaws.

      I am starting to think that, in a more positive way, my beliefs are better expressed as a love for Western culture and a preference toward my own ilk, so to speak. I'm starting to doubt some of the negativity toward others I have expressed here, so for that I can apologize. I'm still a traditionalist, but you're making me rethink the framework for some of my traditionalism, which I greatly appreciate. Some of these more genetic things I probably will stop looking at as flaws, while the more "human choice"  things (e.g., alcohol or hard drugs), I will contine to look at as flaws.

      Oh, and I appreciate you've refrained from being too aggressive with me. I've tried at least to be the same way about your beliefs.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Freya on January 22, 2012, 09:40:23 PM
      I'm not really sure if I meant it myself, to be honest. :-\ If it's a flaw, like I said, it's a very minor one, on a level of my own flaws.

      I am starting to think that, in a more positive way, my beliefs are better expressed as a love for Western culture and a preference toward my own ilk, so to speak. I'm starting to doubt some of the negativity toward others I have expressed here, so for that I can apologize. I'm still a traditionalist, but you're making me rethink the framework for some of my traditionalism, which I greatly appreciate. Some of these more genetic things I probably will stop looking at as flaws, while the more "human choice"  things (e.g., alcohol or hard drugs), I will contine to look at as flaws.

      Oh, and I appreciate you've refrained from being too aggressive with me. I've tried at least to be the same way about your beliefs.

      Oh I agree on alcohol and drugs. I wouldn't be promoting them. I would also not be against people warning against the risks that come with them. But I won't socially ostracize someone using drugs.

      I'm glad you understand that transgendrism and sexual orientation is not a choice. There is plenty of scientific studies that support this fact as well.


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: Rothbardian on January 22, 2012, 09:50:44 PM
      Yeah, the analogy inside my head right now would relate to race. I do think there is something wrong with disliking - or finding flaw in - other people solely based on race. On the other hand, I do believe that it is OK to prefer your own race (which I probably do myself to a very, very small extent). So the basis for traditionalism needs to be the same way, I believe. Unfortunately, this is probably still an offensive view to people. I hope, at least, that you're no longer taking offence in what I'm saying.



      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: bastiat on January 22, 2012, 10:25:54 PM
      I place little value in tradition rather the following are my moral beliefs regardless of what traditions say, within reason. Also, toleration to avoidance means it depend how visible it is and if you talk about it around me. If not much, even if it is clear that you do it ,I would consider you a friend.
      •Feminism: acceptance
      •Free love tolerance to avoidance my objection to most of the following spring from this 
      •Homo and bi-sexuality acceptance who you are attracted to is not an action. Only actions can be moral or immoral
      •Gender bending: tolerance to avoidance
      •Transgenderism: acceptance
      •Prostitution money changing hands is irelavent all that matters is if the people are married 
      •Atheism and religious diversity: Most of my friends are atheists, Jews, or Muslims, I try to convert them, what am I?
      •Sexual fetishism: tolerance to avoidance
      •Bestiality: avoidance
      •Pre "age of consent" sex:  avoidance
      •Pedophilia: resistance
      •Abortion resistance to acceptance
      •Polyamory: tolerance to avoidance
      •Pornography tolerance to avoidance
      •Euthanesia/Suicide tolerance to avoidance
      •Gene modification/Transhumanism: Particpatance to the extent tech allows
      •Body Modification: I tend to find less modified people more aesthetically pleasing and I like being around good looking people
      •Recreational use of soft drugs: acceptance
      •Recreational use of hard drugs: I am less likely to befriend some one who will die quickly
      •Consensual incest: tolerance to avoidance


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on February 23, 2012, 12:12:37 AM
      For the EddyK vs. Rothbardian debates I can sympathize with both sides. On Rothbardian's side of things from the ages of 10 to 12 I very much believed in the minarchist variation of what he is espousing.....but from the age of about 14 up until about 6 months ago, I dealt with issues pretty much identical to what EddyK has dealt with and is currently dealing with. While I have resolved those and am now completely happy with being a male physically, and see myself as the "traditional" male in many ways, for those three and a half years I VERY much wanted to be socially accepted as a woman, and in fact wanted to be a woman, and have all the associated things....the only reason I didn't consider SRS and hormone therapy was I figured the results wouldn't be too great since I"m masculine. Now of course I don't want to be a woman either physically or socially but for a while I did. Many of my fantasies in fact included me doing 'certain" things as a woman though almost always with another woman. But anyway my point is I can sympathize with both sides in this debate though as of now I lean more toward sympathizing with Rothbardian. I think the main issues here are that 1. Rothbardian made the unintentional mistake of calling EddyK's orientation a "flaw". 2. EddyK took offense to that. 3. Rothbardian couldn't appropriately describe what he meant without using the term "flaw" personally I would have chosen "trait" and added the modifier that "some may consider a flaw" though that WOULD be admittedly more lengthy than simply calling it a "flaw" albeit more accurate. To summarize, there was a miscommunication which caused offense on one side and confusion on the other and perhaps both. There. Now stop butting heads. Though you may have already done so. :P


      Title: Re: Are you conservative or progressive?
      Post by: bastiat on February 23, 2012, 08:53:40 AM
      I would agree with AgoristTeen.