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Author Topic: Are you conservative or progressive?  (Read 7583 times)
Syock
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2012, 11:52:23 PM »

The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.  It is like saying it is a flaw that I can get sun-burnt, or because my eyes are a certain color.  

People see these "flaws" and use it as an excuse to ostracize people that have done no harm to anyone. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:57:43 PM by Syock » Logged

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Rothbardian
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« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2012, 12:01:15 AM »

Quote
The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.
 
But that's a view of so-called "equality," otherwise known as egalitarianism. I believe in traditional inequality. I like the old traditions of Western civilization, particularly English traditions.

In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would act towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 12:19:29 AM by Rothbardian » Logged

Freya
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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2012, 12:14:34 AM »

Quote
In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would be towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.

Obesity is largely genetic and not necessarily unhealthy.


Well, I don't judge my views of individuals based on one perceived flaw, as aforementioned. Sad

For example, I may see homosexuality as being a flaw, but that doesn't mean I hate homosexual individuals. I'm even willing to be their friends. I am not applying a collectivist approach here. Perhaps you should reread my sentiments?

It's sad that you would place so much emphasis on what you perceive as my flaw (traditionalism) that you could not be friends with me, while I would be willing to put aside your flaws (transgenderism perhaps?) and be friends with you. It's very ironic actually.

You seem to be assuming that I simply hate people who have these flaws, which is not the case, thankfully. I'm not a bigot, but a traditionalist.

It's okay. I actually think there is hope for you. I know that you simply can not understand. You are not me. You have been told that these things are somehow not natural and that they are not biological.

Just the fact that you state them as being "flaws" is incredibly offensive. Most LGBT people would treat you with extreme contempt. They would see you as an enemy.

Because I am fairly empathic I can totally understand where you are coming from. I'm not hostile towards you, but towards (some of) your beliefs.

Quote
transgenderism perhaps?

I'm guessing that it was pretty obvious. I might as well confirm it. I do as a matter of fact consider myself transgender. You have to realize that there are various degrees. For some transgenders it is sex-reassignment or suicide, there are literally no other options for them and these are the ones that often get the hormone treatment and surgery. I am certainly not transgendered to that degree and generally quite happy living as a male.

There is serious discomfort at times though, not to mention social and psychological problems. Hormones and SRS have been seriously considered in the past, but until now always rejected as an option. There are times when these options seem ridiculous to me as well. I'm very likely to live my entirely life as a male, but these feelings will never go away. They are biological and I must find other ways to express them. But if I had the choice right now between a "real" female body and a "real" male body the choice is easily made.

It's not all bad though. My unusual combination of traditionally feminine and masculine character traits have made me the person I am today. And I consider all of my characteristics valuable. This is why I fight tradition. If you try and stamp people into molds you are wasting their uniqueness.

I hope that in time you will come to understand this.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 12:17:48 AM by EddyK » Logged
Syock
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2012, 12:27:31 AM »

Quote
The problem is your seeing it as flaws, rather than simply how a person is.
 
But that's a view of so-called "equality," otherwise known as egalitarianism. I believe in traditional inequality. I like the old traditions of Western civilization, particularly English traditions.

In my subjective valuation, I also consider fat/obese people as having a flaw. I would be towards such a flaw "tolerant," in Eddy's definitions. Perhaps I would even partake in advocating against obesity.

I discriminate all the time, but not for arbitrary reasons.  I don't hire people that show up to an interview drunk for example.  I have hired convicts, drug users, physically/mentally handicapped, but they were not going to harm my business.  

How far back are you going to follow this tradition?  It is traditional inequality that says slavery is A-OK.  It is tradition for the government to steal from me.  It was old english tradition to rape women on their wedding night in countries they occupied.  Just because something is/was tradition does not make it a good tradition.  Some traditions have no place for certain people.  If there is no place for you in the tradition, or it is harmful to you, there is no reason to accept the tradition.  There is no reason to accept the society.  

I think I am done with this too.  
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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2012, 12:42:05 AM »

@Eddy-

Hm...You know, I really can empathize with that. Sad

I entirely agree with your view that transgenderism, homosexuality, etc., are biological. That much is obvious. Whoever says otherwise is an idiot and a liar, of course. (Although there is some personal choice in the matter, but that's aside from the overall point).

But I still believe that traditionally there are biological flaws, e.g., being born with 5 arms. Please take no offence! I'm probably far removed from the kind of people who have acted unkindly to you in the past; you seem to be consolidating my view with theirs'. Please note that my view does not advocate ostracism against transgenders, as it does against other groups (e.g., pedophiles). That was a mistake I glossed over when I originally went over the quiz, and was just an accident.

I am sorry if I've offended you and whatnot. Undecided


@Syock-

I only accept voluntary traditions.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 12:44:00 AM by Rothbardian » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2012, 07:48:03 AM »

@Syock-

I only accept voluntary traditions.

Too bad traditions don't really work that way. 
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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »

EddyK, I would be your friend. I do my best to judge people by their character but I am not perfect. I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

I am sorry that I misunderstood you.
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2012, 10:09:48 AM »

EddyK, I would be your friend. I do my best to judge people by their character but I am not perfect. I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

I am sorry that I misunderstood you.

It's okay. But if I keep quiet about this then people will never understand how "hurtful" their opinions and statements are.

I had an uncle that was bi sexual, he tauht me alot about tolerance and the importance of understanding people that appear to be different.

I am sorry that I misunderstood you.

The main problem is misunderstanding. People don't understand it because they have been taught it is "wrong" and "disgusting". They can't imagine anyone "choosing" these things. The reality is, there is no choice. You can't choose who you are.

It's understandably to be "weirded out". It's because you've been brainwashed by society into thinking you need to be and act a certain way because you are a man or woman. You project this onto others and if they do not conform you are likely to reject them.

I feel the same way about consensual adult incest actually. It weirds me out a little and even feels a little wrong. But I can't see how it would be "immoral" or "harmful". Romantic love is natural, even if it so happens to be with your brother or sister. The only reason it could be undesirable is for the fact that there is a slightly (I think its like 1-2% or so) increased chance of genetic defects, but these days does it even matter? Sex or romantic love is no longer so much about making children then it was in the past.
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2012, 12:50:51 PM »

    Quote
    • Feminism: equal legal AND social status for females. (while legal status is equalized in many western countries, social status is not. example: slut shaming)

    Partcipance.

    Quote
    • Homo and bi-sexuality

    Partcipance.
    Quote
    • Gender bending: Men looking and acting feminine, woman looking and acting masculine. Cross dressing, Metro-sexuality, etc.
    Partcipance.

    Quote
    • Transgenderism: Not conforming to the gender role expect of the sex. May result in gender bending or sex-reassignment.

    Partcipance.

    Quote
    • Prostitution

    Acceptance

    Quote
    • Atheism and religious diversity: People with different or no religious beliefs.

    Participance

    Quote
    • Sexual fetishism: Sexual arousal from certain objects or situations. Especially "deviant" ones. BDSM. Necrophilia.

    Acceptance.

    Quote
    • Bestiality: Sex with animals

    Tolerance.  Avoidance when it's clearly animal abuse.

    Quote
    • Pre "age of consent" sex:  Sex with a (sexually mature) minor or between minors

    Acceptance.

    Quote
    • Pedophilia: Sex with non-sexually mature individuals (children before AoC)

    Tolerance to a certain degree when there is apparent consent. Avoidance or Resistance in more extreme cases.

    Quote
    • Abortion

    Acceptance

    Quote
    • Free love: sex outside or before marriage.

    Participance.

    Quote
    • Polyamory: romantic/sexual relationship between more then two individuals. With the consent
    • of all involved.

    Acceptance or Participance. Not quite sure if I can deal with non-monogamous relationships, I'd be willing to try.

    Quote
    • Pornography

    Participance. (In consumption Tongue)

    Quote
    • Euthanesia/Suicide

    Acceptance.

    Quote
    • Gene modification/Transhumanism: Artificially modifying the human body by modifying the DNA.
    Acceptance.
    Quote
    • Body Modification: Tattoo's, piercings and "mutilation"
    Acceptance.
    Quote
    • Recreational use of soft drugs: using drugs that are considered relatively harmless. Marijuanna, mushrooms.
    Acceptance.
    Quote
    • Recreational use of hard drugs: using drugs that cause serious harm or sideffects: Speed, Cocaine, Heroine
    Acceptance.
    Quote
    • Consensual incest: Consensual sex between (adult) relatives

    Acceptance.










    [/list]
    « Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 12:53:49 PM by EddyK » Logged
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    « Reply #54 on: January 21, 2012, 12:57:41 PM »

    Having read through this conversation, I think the hangup is on Rothbardian's concept of the "ideal" person. Think about how subjective that is. You say the ideal man is straight and obeys traditional male gender roles. Do you think that your sexual and gender identity has played a role helping you draw that conclusion? If you were born otherwise, do you think you would feel differently? What does an ideal person even mean? Ideal for what?

    I think you're taking tradition and putting it on a pedestal and calling it ideal. Syock has adequately refuted this concept (government is a tradition).

    Look, we're all born, we're all different, and we all die. What we do in between is how we assign meaning to our own lives. Their certainly isn't any objective barometer for determining the "correct" or "ideal" lifestyle.

    I think you probably offend EddyK when you compare being transgender to having 5 arms. This is not really fair. One case just means that he was born with different preferences than you, but is fully capable of functioning and living his life, since he has an able body. In the other case, he would have a serious medical condition that would likely leave him disabled, and everyday things would be an extreme challenge. Maybe the line between differences and impairments isn't always clear, but I think we have chosen examples here that are far enough apart so as to be useful.
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    Freya
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    « Reply #55 on: January 21, 2012, 02:47:03 PM »

    Having read through this conversation, I think the hangup is on Rothbardian's concept of the "ideal" person. Think about how subjective that is. You say the ideal man is straight and obeys traditional male gender roles. Do you think that your sexual and gender identity has played a role helping you draw that conclusion? If you were born otherwise, do you think you would feel differently? What does an ideal person even mean? Ideal for what?


    That he describes it as flaws is very offensive. To me they are simply part of my identity. I'm perfectly happy with them and wouldn't want to be any other way. If you offered me a cure to be a perfectly masculine man I would reject, even though I would probably be happier (no dysphoria, no social opression). I actually consider my traditionally feminine traits to be perks and desirable parts of my personality, in fact more so then most of my traditionally male traits.  I particularly value my ability for empathy that is typically considered a "female" thing and lack of aggression and dominance that is typically considered "male".

    I think my ability for logic ("male trait") and my ability to empathize ("female trait") combine well to allow me to assess a situation objectively using logic and reason and from someone else's subjective perspective using empathy and psychology. The downside is that there is always a conflict between them.

    Quote
    I think you're taking tradition and putting it on a pedestal and calling it ideal. Syock has adequately refuted this concept (government is a tradition).

    I have my doubts about about traditionalists anarchists. For me anarchy is all about rejecting tradition and using logic and "science" to draw your own conclusions. Sometimes these conclusions might coincide with tradition. But often they will lead to a rejection of tradition.

    Quote
    Look, we're all born, we're all different, and we all die. What we do in between is how we assign meaning to our own lives. Their certainly isn't any objective barometer for determining the "correct" or "ideal" lifestyle.

    By trying to get people to conform to a certain lifestyle, you are killing diversity. By doing so you shoot yourself in the proverbial foot, because diversity leads to creativity and that leads to innovation. If you limit yourself to tradition you are narrowing your perspective. It's like wearing blinders.

    Quote
    I think you probably offend EddyK when you compare being transgender to having 5 arms. This is not really fair. One case just means that he was born with different preferences than you, but is fully capable of functioning and living his life, since he has an able body. In the other case, he would have a serious medical condition that would likely leave him disabled, and everyday things would be an extreme challenge. Maybe the line between differences and impairments isn't always clear, but I think we have chosen examples here that are far enough apart so as to be useful.

    The offensive is calling it a flaw, especially when the person in question does not see it that way. 5 arms, if fully functional, might be useful in certain cases and not be a disability at all.

    Even people with a so called physical disability have a tremendous potential to contribute to society. These people have a vastly different perspective on the world. Their attempts to conquer challenges us "able" people never have to face leads to innovation and ideas that greatly benefit all of humanity. While we marginalize the disabled we do not realize the potential that their alternate perspective has. Just because birds can fly and humans can't doesn't mean we are flawed animals. Labeling disability as a flaw is potentially destructive to society as a whole.

    I would like that add that while I now have a thick skin, this is only the result of working hard on accepting myself and building self-confidence. Which was greatly destroyed by bullying during childhood. Even back then the "boys" felt that I was really different. I never understood why i was bullied until now.

    Often we unintentionally harm peoples self-confidence, most people don't realize how hurting some of the things they say and do are. A good example is "rough jokes" made by boys. I was often punched in high school, followed by a hurtful comment. To me it felt like bullying. To most of the people involved it was a joke, one that they constantly pulled on other kids. I didn't get this until I was about 15 and I occasionally came home crying in my early years in high school. I just didn't understand why people were being so "mean" to me.

    I never quite understood the typical "male" social interactions in childhood, I could not identify with boys. I always identified with girls more, but the typical girl/boy split (based on biological sex) in elementary school left me unable to interact with them. You know the whole: girls are stupid, boys are lame paradigm. It's really harmful.

    It's only when the rigid gender boundaries evaporated in high school that I started socializing. But at this point I was very "withdrawn" and shy. And to the girls I interacted with I was always a "boy" because of my biological sex.

    As I experienced puberty and began to understand the physical differences between boys and girls, I was pushed into associating with guys more, and taking on a typically male role. I actually became less socially awkward. I had good interactions with girls. But I couldn't associate with girls as 'friends', that just wasn't socially acceptable. Unless it was in a sexual predatory and dominant fashion, which i had absolutely no interest in. I was expected to interact with girls in a male way, but I couldn't do that. It lead to me being 'shy' and 'scared' of girls, because I did not know how to interact with them. I still have certain problems to this day when interacting with girls as a "guy". Physical contact is extremely frightening for me, as I have no desire to express a dominant sexuality towards them, but I am afraid that I might unintentionally do that, because it is expected of me as a man to only really be interested in them sexually. Even things like hugs, cheek kisses and even hand shaking are extremely uncomfortable for me. I'm afraid of doing something 'sexual' and 'inappropriate'.

    The existence of these traditional 'gender roles' and the expectation of me to follow them have traumatized me. I was unable to socially interact in the way I desire and still am to some degree, simply because I am a biological male. My sexual fantasies and desires about women have never been about "taking them". They are about being or becoming them. Being treated like them. Being treated like the person I AM. I used to deceive myself into think I was the male in the fantasies and that I was "taking" the girl. But in reality I was the girl. This deception led to further confusion. I told myself that I was the male in my fantasies, but I knew I couldn't behave like a typical male. So I projected the male role onto the woman. The women in my fantasies were always dominant and male was submissive (I thought I was the male). This led to an extremely counter-cultural view on women. An inversion of the tradition where I view males as submissive and females as dominant.

    While most biological humans match their expected roles, not all of them do. I have a traditionally female 'sexuality', it's about getting attention and being loved and wanted. Not the traditionally male 'sexuality' that is about conquering and dominating and being admired. There is nothing wrong with either form of sexuality, both are completely natural. The problem is that I am expected to have a different sexuality then I actually have.

    So we arrive at my current situation. Where on one hand I want to be accepted by society, so I must be dominant. On the other hand I want to have the social status that is only granted to women.

    This leads me to the confusing conclusion that I need to have a female body to finally be able to be myself AND to be able to fulfill my expected dominant role. (Remember that I projected the dominant role on women, because I could not imagine myself, a man, being dominant).

    The desire to become a woman isn't a result of wanting to have a female body and the associated "girl parts". The desire comes from the fact that in order to fulfill the expectations of society and still be myself, I MUST HAVE a female body and the associated "girl parts". I'm not a woman trapped in a mans body. I am an individual trapped in the expectations associated with a mans body.

    The reason why I will probably never do the MtF transition is because I do not believe that it will finally give me the social status that I desire, the social status of a woman. The transition will merely give me the social status of a trans-woman, which is a potentially less desirable status to me then being a man. (because lets face it, acceptance for trans-people is pretty much non-existent)

    The only solutions I have are either:

    • Society changes in a way that I can attain my desired social status in my current body, I keep my current male body
    • I change my body from male to female, I get female social status

    Neither are realistic options in the current society. I am left dealing with the resulting dysphoria of possibly never being able to attain my desired social status. Which as you can probably understand not very "healthy".

    P.S. sorry, the post became sort of longer then I expected.


    « Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:49:03 PM by EddyK » Logged
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    « Reply #56 on: January 21, 2012, 03:53:08 PM »

    Well, as you've said before, we can't truly understand what you're going through. We can try, but it's not exactly the same thing.

    What you've described here isn't what I think of when I think of someone being transgender, but I guess I don't really know. It sounded like you still fantasized about being with a woman, with your male body, but just with nontraditional roles. Some women like to "be in control" or "dominate" men when they have sex. Having submissive tendencies doesn't automatically make you gay or transgender.

    I am a male, and I'm putting in effort to understand and empathize with you, that doesn't make me gay or transgender. Not everyone has to display every type of stereotypical gender role. Not all straight men are violent wifebeaters, not all straight women are sweet and polite.

    I'm not trying to challenge you here, it's just that you said yourself you were confused, so I'm giving you something to think about. I hope none of this sounded offensive, I'm legitimately trying to understand you.....but you might have to display some patience, straight men are bad at empathizing!!!
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    « Reply #57 on: January 21, 2012, 04:28:57 PM »

    But I still believe that traditionally there are biological flaws, e.g., being born with 5 arms.

    Shows what you know. One man's flaw is another man's goddess. Subjective Theory of Everything (SToE) all up in your face ... again! :-)

    http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/11/18/hindu-goddess-born-with-4-legs-and-4-arms/
    « Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 04:31:23 PM by David Giessel » Logged

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    « Reply #58 on: January 21, 2012, 04:32:13 PM »

    Well, as you've said before, we can't truly understand what you're going through. We can try, but it's not exactly the same thing.

    What you've described here isn't what I think of when I think of someone being transgender, but I guess I don't really know. It sounded like you still fantasized about being with a woman, with your male body, but just with nontraditional roles. Some women like to "be in control" or "dominate" men when they have sex. Having submissive tendencies doesn't automatically make you gay or transgender.

    But that is the point, according to society being submissive means you are not a "male". I was never allowed to be myself, so I started learning ways in which I can be myself. I think this is exactly what it means to be transgender.

    Quote
    I am a male, and I'm putting in effort to understand and empathize with you, that doesn't make me gay or transgender. Not everyone has to display every type of stereotypical gender role. Not all straight men are violent wifebeaters, not all straight women are sweet and polite.

    But that is the point, this is exactly what society expects. Even though we are all "equal" by law, there are certain behavioral expectations of men. I did not conform and now seek to find a way in which I can be myself.

    Quote
    I'm not trying to challenge you here, it's just that you said yourself you were confused, so I'm giving you something to think about. I hope none of this sounded offensive, I'm legitimately trying to understand you.....but you might have to display some patience, straight men are bad at empathizing!!!

    It is my theory that all transgender folks are simply individuals who's character more closely matches that of the opposing gender role. This is why there are degrees of transgenderism. Some men have a mind that is almost completely like  the average female.

    I can't be sure that there isn't some actual desire to also have a female body. There are certain things that only CAN be done by having such a body. It might be the only way of fulfilling the desired social role.

    Personally I think there are a number of factors that cause people to be transgendered. But it is my firm believe that all transgenders are seeking a way to fulfill their desired role in society. For some this means they MUST transition at all costs. There are many people with similar theories, but I am basing this purely on my situation.

    You have to realize that gender is almost a completely artificial construct. There is some biological influence, but it is minimal.



    « Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 05:25:34 PM by EddyK » Logged
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    « Reply #59 on: January 21, 2012, 05:35:19 PM »

    Shows what you know. One man's flaw is another man's goddess. Subjective Theory of Everything (SToE) all up in your face ... again! :-)

    I don't believe that though. I believe that there is an objective reality, which forms subjective human experiences. It doesn't matter if the hindus think that 4 arms make a goddess; four arms is still objectively a mutation and an abnormality when contrasted to the typical man.

    You seem to think I was implying that having five arms would always be objectively bad, which isn't necessarily the case.
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