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Author Topic: Ancom vs Ancap  (Read 30134 times)
MAM
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« on: April 16, 2013, 01:39:45 AM »

Ancoms continuously tell us that we are not anarchists. Like wise it is fairly common to here Ancaps say the same about the AnComs.

Recently I've been going back and forth on the issue. My opinion on this of late has changed daily. Here are my thoughts as of right now.

The Ancom conception of rights, is that men have rights to things. So they believe in positive rights. With this philosophy of what counts as moral, then by their definition private property is coercive. Which means that anyone who holds property is exploiting others. I know to us this sounds ridiculous. But by this warped notion of what rights are, we as advocates of property engage in coercion and thus we are not anarchists.

We believe on the other hand that people have negative rights. Thus private property is legitimate and anything that forcefully takes property or subjugates a man to another's will is coercive. The AnComs advocate democracy, by our standards majority rule is rule, thus democracy is coercive, and so AnComs are not anarchists.

As I recently posted on assassin7's video "Why Anarcho Capitalists are Statists" by the definitions of anarchy and rights both sides are correct in saying that the other is not anarchist.

From a rights perspective both are correct, if you take the positive, and negative rights theories into consideration. So they both are anarchists and at the same time neither is anarchist.

So what do we do about this? That is if we want to stop bickering over what we call ourselves?

There are only two options as I see it, either both philosophies quit calling themselves anarchists, or both philosophies acknowledge the other as anarchists, but with different ideas about rights.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
Syock
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 06:14:16 AM »

Ancoms continuously tell us that we are not anarchists. Like wise it is fairly common to here Ancaps say the same about the AnComs.

Recently I've been going back and forth on the issue. My opinion on this of late has changed daily. Here are my thoughts as of right now.

The Ancom conception of rights, is that men have rights to things. So they believe in positive rights. With this philosophy of what counts as moral, then by their definition private property is coercive. Which means that anyone who holds property is exploiting others. I know to us this sounds ridiculous. But by this warped notion of what rights are, we as advocates of property engage in coercion and thus we are not anarchists.

We believe on the other hand that people have negative rights. Thus private property is legitimate and anything that forcefully takes property or subjugates a man to another's will is coercive. The AnComs advocate democracy, by our standards majority rule is rule, thus democracy is coercive, and so AnComs are not anarchists.

As I recently posted on assassin7's video "Why Anarcho Capitalists are Statists" by the definitions of anarchy and rights both sides are correct in saying that the other is not anarchist.

From a rights perspective both are correct, if you take the positive, and negative rights theories into consideration. So they both are anarchists and at the same time neither is anarchist.

The conclusion didn't make a bit of sense to me.  Sorry. 

Anarchy means no government according to the dictionary.  Simple enough.  Democracy is a 2,500 year old form of government.  They advocate democracy, a 2,500 year old form of government. 

They are creating their own definition of what anarchy means.  They claim anarchy means their democratic utopia.  Anything that is not their democratic utopia is not anarchy to them.  As we don't advocate democracy, to them we are not anarchists.  Garbage in, garbage out.  They are starting with a false definition and are forced to a wrong conclusion. 

Many ancaps have said they can setup their democratic utopia inside an ancap framework.  There would be no taxes to force them out of it as there currently is.  They could be entirely self-sufficient as they desire to be.  We do not force them to live in our 'coercive' world.  Their claims are false, even from a rights perspective.  They would force us to comply with their democratic utopia.  There is no way out, and they don't see that as coercive.  There is no sense arguing with them with anything but self defense when they come to democratically steal your stuff. 

There are probably 1,500 posts on the rights issue on this site.  I am just repeating things I have said before unfortunately. 


So what do we do about this? That is if we want to stop bickering over what we call ourselves?

There are only two options as I see it, either both philosophies quit calling themselves anarchists, or both philosophies acknowledge the other as anarchists, but with different ideas about rights.

I don't mind calling myself ancap, rather than anarchist.  I would gladly call myself anarchist just to upset them though.  If they went with ancom or some other term that is a better definition of themselves, this wouldn't matter.  By them claiming the term anarchist, they are twisting the definition of all types of existing and potential anarchists.  They claim we can't be ancap because it has 'an' in it, and is suppose to be their philosophy alone. 

It really doesn't matter though, they are going to do what they want to do.  The bickering will never end.   
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State-God
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 06:41:17 AM »

I think we need to make them Capitalists before we make them Anarchists.

That, or show them the long-reaching effects of the idea that value is subjective.
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 01:15:59 PM »

I think we need to make them Capitalists before we make them Anarchists.

That, or show them the long-reaching effects of the idea that value is subjective.

Haha they're never going to be capitalists.

I've been working on the value is subjective thing, I don't think I'm making progress.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 11:39:32 PM »

Syock is right.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 01:31:27 PM »

Of course their answer is going to be that democracy is just a way to make decisions.

Then they are going to ask is a State when you and your friends get together and decides on where to go?
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 07:21:53 PM »

I liked this vid.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciLjH4AYOuY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciLjH4AYOuY</a>
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SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 09:55:51 PM »

 The biggest flaw in the thinking of ancoms is their ridiculous notion that everyone in society needs to be equal. They have this crazy notion that egalitarianism has to be the central moral code that everyone within a given group has to subscribe to. The only question I have is how this is supposed to happen. If everyone in a given group has the same amount of everything, what happens when someone in that group decides that he wants to expand and have more? How do they decide whether or not that specific individual deserves to have more? If they believe that he should share it, then they violate their beliefs by forming a government that has the power to decide whether or not this specific individual should have more than everyone else. You cannot enforce some zany idea of equality without have some centralized group overseeing its existence.   
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 09:59:54 PM »

What about Labour Theory of Value? I'd say that's a pretty big flaw in their thinking. And in fact my next video that I'm uploading covers that.

I agree that their egalitarian ethics are bullshit, and bad, but is that their biggest flaw? I don't know there are so so many to compare...
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 10:07:34 PM »

^Yeah. There are probably many more than that. I'm bringing up that one because that's the argument I've heard the most from them. Speaking of ancoms, what the hell happened to that retard, Assassin7? Did he finally have enough of trolling us?
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2013, 10:12:27 PM »

^Yeah. There are probably many more than that. I'm bringing up that one because that's the argument I've heard the most from them. Speaking of ancoms, what the hell happened to that retard, Assassin7? Did he finally have enough of trolling us?

He ascended from forum troll, to youtube video making troll, at least I think it's him. anarchopac is his youtube alias if I'm right.

Even if it's not him I still found it comedic, watch the video called "Why Anarcho-Capitalists are Statists part 1) for a good laugh.

I'm thinking about making a response but I haven't really decided. 
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 06:00:27 AM »

... what happens when someone in that group decides that he wants to expand and have more?

Building on this concept, what if someone wants less?  Would everyone be forced to give up their stuff?

Yes, that is him in the videos.   
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oooorgle
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 10:58:50 AM »

You cannot enforce some zany idea of equality without have some centralized group overseeing its existence.

Tyranny Requires Equality
http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/tyranny-requires-equality/
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 07:26:28 PM »

You cannot enforce some zany idea of equality without have some centralized group overseeing its existence.

Tyranny Requires Equality
http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/tyranny-requires-equality/
Equality requires Tyranny
(The Trees by Rush)
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"I like to eat. Instead of a monarch I propose we have a Chef be final arbiter in matters. We'll call it anarcho-chefism."
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 07:40:24 PM »

Equality requires Tyranny
(The Trees by Rush)

Nice! I liked it! Thanks.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWHEcIbhDiw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWHEcIbhDiw</a>
There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.
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