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Author Topic: Pointless Proselytizing  (Read 1007 times)
acft
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« on: January 18, 2013, 02:45:35 AM »

An article about the futility of trying to convert the masses and some alternatives.
http://www.ancapfreethinker.info/?p=181

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Seth King
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 03:19:01 AM »

To be honest, I only skimmed the article. But what I read I thought was insightful.

You mentioned how the truth is pain. And I really agree with this. I've sort of come to view a lot of things more or less like a balance, or equation.

If truth pain >= actual pain

    ignorance rules

else if truth pain <= actual pain

    wisdom rules

Let's be honest here, as libertarian activists we either don't feel much, if any, pain in the truth, or we are suffering in our daily lives so much that the truth doesn't hurt us anymore. That's the reason why we're libertarians.

But for the vast majority of, say, AMERICANS, life pain is, or at least has been, extremely low. I mean if you ignore the obvious police state, think of how many people live in nice apartments, with heating and air conditioning, have big screen TV's, full kitchens of beer and food, a ready supply of weed and cigarettes, an easy job, etc. etc. I mean, for most people the most amount of pain they feel in their daily lives is having to exercise or diet or something. The truth is WAYYYYY MORE painful than anything they're used to experiencing in their day to day lives.

So, for most people, until they are suffering SO MUCH in their daily lives, like say, going homeless, or starving, or getting the shit kicked out of them by a cop, or getting a heavy jail sentence for a victimless crime, they will see the truth as more painful. But once those things happen, then when the truth smacks them in the face, it might not hurt them and they'll be receptive to it.

I know it sounds cold blooded, but when I see a person getting their ass beat by a cop, or some other random abuse at the hands of the state, I really don't feel much pity for the person(unless they're a libertarian, of course) because I feel like now that they've experienced the pain of the state they might be a potential anarchist convert.

Now, it begs the question. What about all of those people who are suffering way bad at the hands of the state and still continue to be blind? Well, honestly, I think humans have an extremely high tolerance for pain. I mean, look at how our ancestors lived. Hell, maybe the Nintendo generation will actually save the world because we're all a bunch of softies and have a low tolerance for pain, so the truth is easy by comparison.
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MAM
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 04:27:22 AM »

Quote
I know it sounds cold blooded, but when I see a person getting their ass beat by a cop, or some other random abuse at the hands of the state, I really don't feel much pity for the person(unless they're a libertarian, of course) because I feel like now that they've experienced the pain of the state they might be a potential anarchist convert.

Now, it begs the question. What about all of those people who are suffering way bad at the hands of the state and still continue to be blind? Well, honestly, I think humans have an extremely high tolerance for pain. I mean, look at how our ancestors lived. Hell, maybe the Nintendo generation will actually save the world because we're all a bunch of softies and have a low tolerance for pain, so the truth is easy by comparison.

I second this.
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 07:36:25 AM »

To be honest, I only skimmed the article. But what I read I thought was insightful.

You mentioned how the truth is pain. And I really agree with this. I've sort of come to view a lot of things more or less like a balance, or equation.

If truth pain >= actual pain

    ignorance rules

else if truth pain <= actual pain

    wisdom rules

Let's be honest here, as libertarian activists we either don't feel much, if any, pain in the truth, or we are suffering in our daily lives so much that the truth doesn't hurt us anymore. That's the reason why we're libertarians.

But for the vast majority of, say, AMERICANS, life pain is, or at least has been, extremely low. I mean if you ignore the obvious police state, think of how many people live in nice apartments, with heating and air conditioning, have big screen TV's, full kitchens of beer and food, a ready supply of weed and cigarettes, an easy job, etc. etc. I mean, for most people the most amount of pain they feel in their daily lives is having to exercise or diet or something. The truth is WAYYYYY MORE painful than anything they're used to experiencing in their day to day lives.

So, for most people, until they are suffering SO MUCH in their daily lives, like say, going homeless, or starving, or getting the shit kicked out of them by a cop, or getting a heavy jail sentence for a victimless crime, they will see the truth as more painful. But once those things happen, then when the truth smacks them in the face, it might not hurt them and they'll be receptive to it.

I know it sounds cold blooded, but when I see a person getting their ass beat by a cop, or some other random abuse at the hands of the state, I really don't feel much pity for the person(unless they're a libertarian, of course) because I feel like now that they've experienced the pain of the state they might be a potential anarchist convert.

Now, it begs the question. What about all of those people who are suffering way bad at the hands of the state and still continue to be blind? Well, honestly, I think humans have an extremely high tolerance for pain. I mean, look at how our ancestors lived. Hell, maybe the Nintendo generation will actually save the world because we're all a bunch of softies and have a low tolerance for pain, so the truth is easy by comparison.

An old socialist teacher of mine (I'd say democratic socialist except he wasn't a huge fan of democracy) liked to tell us about how he sat in at a Department of Agriculture meeting wherein it was said (can't recall of it was the Secretary or one of the head honchos of the food industry) that Americans would never rebel as long as they had twinkies and beer.

He also liked to point out that most, if not all, of the world's major revolutions have ONLY occurred when there isn't enough bread. When the basic necessity of life- food- is in such short supply the situations becomes such that throwing yourself at a barricade has little meaning since there's a good chance you and your family will starve to death anyways. In short, people have to have nothing left to lose before they truly rebel.

I say we just wait for Statism to fall in on itself whilst being ready to standby to offer the masses a new ideology.
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 08:00:30 AM »


Quote
I say we just wait for Statism to fall in on itself whilst being ready to standby to offer the masses a new ideology.

I would agree with you, however, when statism fails as an individual country project, it will be consolidated as a global project.  The plans have already been in the works; the organizations have already been created.  Now, it is just a matter of time, until all of the individual statist countries collapse into a global Statist government.  Something tells me that once they get a global statist government in place, it would be a very long time before there is a move to rebel.

As your socialist teacher said, people rebel when they no longer have available to them the necessities of life.  If a global government has the ability to direct global resources then it will take a very long time until enough people are directly effected, in a negative way, -due to incompetence- for individuals to willingly fight back.  By that time, most people would be so far removed from any type of self-reliance lifestyle that it becomes nearly impossible for people to see a future; and as such, plenty of the masses would just suffer instead of fight back.  With weapons being outlawed in nearly every country around the world -for the common man to possess- it is becoming clear that within one generation of the global statist government take-over most people wouldn't even be able to even fire a gun with any real ability.  This would therefore leave us with a need for statists(Law Enforcement Officers, and Military) to help us; this would prove to be futile, but in the smallest of circumstances.  The US will not completely collapse until the global government is ready to be deployed -within five years time; this is why the EU must continue its collapse -in direct relationship with the US's collapse- and we will start to see other countries collapsing which one wouldn't expect, like China.  China is very heavily dependent on being the manufacturing arm of the world, but if the world is unable to buy, then China will not be able to continue to produce, but for themselves. The process will continue.

Hoping for a US collapse is entirely counter-productive since it will only be allowed to collapse once global system is ready to take its place; I can assure you that it will not be an anarchist system of any kind.
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 09:11:32 AM »

@Agorist Very good points, admittedly I hadn't taken the trend towards global statism into my considerations.

However, I want to be clear that I'm not calling for us to nothing. My major point was that, due to our (both AnCaps and liberty minded individuals in general) small numbers, we have no chance of major revolutionary action any time soon. Instead we need to (as I've always said) do what the Marxists did, by slowly overtaking the intellectual trends of the world.

The reason I said that we should just wait for Statism to collapse is that we don't, really, need to enact a revolution to win- as long as we keep spouting our philosophy the State will prove us right time and time again. The inevitable poverty and tyrrany resulting from the State will steadily turn people towards our side.

As evidence of this trend, I cite the simply astounding growth of libertarian numbers since the 70's. As I recall, Rothbard once noted that there was a day when all of the libertarians in America could easily fit in his apartment.
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Agrarian_Agorist
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 11:10:21 AM »

While again I do agree with you in general, I do find some-things which seem amiss from what you said and reality:
Quote
The inevitable poverty and tyrrany resulting from the State will steadily turn people towards our side.
  Most of the hardest hit areas like Gary Indiana and such, have been lead to believe that the companies left there because of the CEO's greed and not because of government rules and regulations.  This creates a situation where anti-capitalism grows, and statism and socialism -if there is a difference- rules supreme.  These people are in such a bad way, they are only surviving off of government money; to them the government is saving their lives.

 It seems like the more the people get hurt -indirectly- by government, the more the people want more government; but then again they are getting hurt indirectly and not necessarily directly by the government, so they(the people) just don't see that their pain is caused by the government as a result of rules and regulations imposed on their(the people's) employers by the government.  However, until people realize this, they will continuously call for more and more government to protect them from the evil capitalists; which itself is a message which government likes being adopted by the hapless masses so they sure as hell aren't going to point out that it was government which created the peoples pain in the first place.

Quote
As I recall, Rothbard once noted that there was a day when all of the libertarians in America could easily fit in his apartment.

I think I remember hearing that before, but I still can't help but smile every-time I read it.
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helio
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 03:28:04 PM »

I absolutely agree with Seth.  That is why I dont view agorism or civil disobedience or political action as strategically useful at the present. Tactically, they can aid us, moreso agorism and local political action than civdis.  My focus is purely along cultural integration and geographic concentration of existing liberty lovers than trying to convert masses or take over their political systems.

Just gota wait it out and build our networks with each other so when the pain increases for the average joe, we can step up.
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Seth King
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 03:33:44 PM »

I absolutely agree with Seth.  That is why I dont view agorism or civil disobedience or political action as strategically useful at the present. Tactically, they can aid us, moreso agorism and local political action than civdis.  My focus is purely along cultural integration and geographic concentration of existing liberty lovers than trying to convert masses or take over their political systems.

Just gota wait it out and build our networks with each other so when the pain increases for the average joe, we can step up.

Right now if a person is disgruntled with the statist system, there is little alternative. As our numbers increase and our networks grow, it will be easier to opt out of the state.

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MAM
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »


Quote
I say we just wait for Statism to fall in on itself whilst being ready to standby to offer the masses a new ideology.

I would agree with you, however, when statism fails as an individual country project, it will be consolidated as a global project.  The plans have already been in the works; the organizations have already been created.  Now, it is just a matter of time, until all of the individual statist countries collapse into a global Statist government.  Something tells me that once they get a global statist government in place, it would be a very long time before there is a move to rebel.

As your socialist teacher said, people rebel when they no longer have available to them the necessities of life.  If a global government has the ability to direct global resources then it will take a very long time until enough people are directly effected, in a negative way, -due to incompetence- for individuals to willingly fight back.  By that time, most people would be so far removed from any type of self-reliance lifestyle that it becomes nearly impossible for people to see a future; and as such, plenty of the masses would just suffer instead of fight back.  With weapons being outlawed in nearly every country around the world -for the common man to possess- it is becoming clear that within one generation of the global statist government take-over most people wouldn't even be able to even fire a gun with any real ability.  This would therefore leave us with a need for statists(Law Enforcement Officers, and Military) to help us; this would prove to be futile, but in the smallest of circumstances.  The US will not completely collapse until the global government is ready to be deployed -within five years time; this is why the EU must continue its collapse -in direct relationship with the US's collapse- and we will start to see other countries collapsing which one wouldn't expect, like China.  China is very heavily dependent on being the manufacturing arm of the world, but if the world is unable to buy, then China will not be able to continue to produce, but for themselves. The process will continue.

Hoping for a US collapse is entirely counter-productive since it will only be allowed to collapse once global system is ready to take its place; I can assure you that it will not be an anarchist system of any kind.

This whole thing reminds me of Leto's Peace.
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"A stone is heavy and the sand is weighty but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both"-Tuek

"Knowledge is power, and it's light weight. The more you know the less you need."-Cody Lundin

"Hey... it's a haiku

Democracy is
Two Zombies and a Sheriff
Deciding on Lunch."-Davi Barker
r3VOLutionRefugee
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 12:07:28 AM »


If truth pain >= actual pain

    ignorance rules

else if truth pain <= actual pain

    wisdom rules


lol, someone has been hitting their programming books

As to the point of your post, the sad reality is that if you can make slavery relatively comfortable, the human animal won't even think of trying to become free.
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Seth King
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 12:38:23 AM »


If truth pain >= actual pain

    ignorance rules

else if truth pain <= actual pain

    wisdom rules


lol, someone has been hitting their programming books


I'm a dork!
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helio
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 01:01:50 AM »

Quote
An article about the futility of trying to convert the masses and some alternatives.

I finally had time to read the article, since I'm having trouble sleeping tonight...

I absolutely agree with the enclave method, though not necessarily pursuing a remote location at this time.

New Hampshire is enclave enough and here is an example.
I went to the Free Nashua weekly meetup yesterday evening with my wife.
We met a software engineer, a control engineer, a machinist, a chemist, a data analyst, and I didn't even get to meet them all.

As our mass increases, so will our gravity pull more liberty lovers this way.  We'll build amazing things in time, but it is more important to take the small steps and do simple things like just showing up to meet people and form bonds.



 
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