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Author Topic: Austrian econ according to a Leninist socialist  (Read 18256 times)
assasin7
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2012, 05:59:11 PM »

If capital formation meant long term profit loss, we never would have made it out of the caves.

Thats where government comes in, it pays for the loses and makes sure monopolies don't form and creates new areas for companies to exploit, for example war, when a war is declared companies make money, allowing capitalism to continue.

You're right, that is where government comes in. To CREATE monopolies, like the ones on "legitimized" forced, public transit (buses and roads), zoning, yada yada yada.  Monopolies, for the most part, can ONLY exist because of government. They have all the guns and the perceived legitimacy.

War is declared because of government. Sure some EVIL corporations encourage and profit off of it. They're a disgusting symptom of a disgusting problem. Boeing cannot go to war itself, it wouldn't even try. Its only interested in sucking on the monstrous furry teet of government. War does not cause profit buddy. Taking resources and training people then relocating them to the bottom of the ocean is exactly a sure way to destroy resources.

You guys are really making me think of this. Not literally I guess, but just because you seem obsessed with being demonstrably wrong.

WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Theirs a reason that each industry has at least 2 companies, the government has to keep at least 2 companies so that it doesn't collapse. Without government the wealth would be gathered into 1 company and collapse.
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Mark Stoval
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »

... Mostly the price comes from the labor and materials put into the product or service being sold, and then at the highest margin of profitability. There is an objective price to the product before it ever hits the market, something Austrian "economists" like to ignore.

Jesus on a stick. We have a commie here who holds to the labor theory of value. A discredited notion worthy of a loudmouth who ignores reality around him.

Why my dear fellow can I buy a hardback book at my local bookseller for a few dollars when it was going for 35 just a few months ago? (especially left-wing political crap) Could it be that humans have a subjective evaluation of what a think is worth to them as individuals and that the bookseller can not make a book be worth more than the judgment of the buyers? Hmmmm?

Why can they not sell the Chevy Volt at the prices that your labor theory says they should be able to sell it for? Hmmmm?

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Mark Stoval
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« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2012, 06:17:35 PM »


Theirs a reason that each industry has at least 2 companies, the government has to keep at least 2 companies so that it doesn't collapse. Without government the wealth would be gathered into 1 company and collapse.

I take it that you are too young to know about AT&T which was the telephone company of the United States for a long time? Or IT&T which was the telephone company of many countries in South America? We did not notice a "price collapse" in those days.

I recommend you spend the summer reading a bit. Get on amazon.com and get a copy of "Whatever Happened to Penny Candy" for a starter. It is written for a middle schooler to understand but it is a book that anyone can learn from when they are in such need.

Or you could look at one of the books by Robert P. Murphy to gain an elementary understanding of that which you seek to understand.

Note: edited for more politeness
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:19:56 PM by Mark Stoval » Logged
JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2012, 07:30:41 PM »

Note: edited for more politeness
^ A better man than me.
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Coltan L.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 10:09:58 AM »

I think we've been tarbabied. There is a knowledge gap here. A lot of people on this forum are fairly well informed about this topic. I also thing there's a part of most ancaps that enjoys the masochism inherent in teaching people about anarchocapitalism.  But right now we're playing Battleship and on the other side of the board you're playing Hungry Hungry Hippos. There will be no progress.

I'd check out that Penny Candy book (I'm going to as well) or check out Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.

I used to be a Marxist, to my everlasting shame. But the whole shebang is pretty much indefensible. There's a really good Austrian tear down of Marxism. I forget who did it, but I'll post a link later. I am actively looking and have yet to find the opposite.  The link that started this thread was done for laughs.  The guy is a clown.
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SinCityVoluntaryist
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 06:21:50 PM »

"No, it's because individual preferences don't make an economy."

Note: grammar corrections made.

This has to be one of the most hilarious statements that I've read in a long, long time. Human preference and choice is the bedrock by which economic foundations are set and rooted. If a business cannot cater to the needs that individuals set though the purchase and exchange of goods, they fail. Why is that so difficult for left-socialists to get through their heads. Tell me, when you go to the store and purchase one item over another, or you not engaging in the process of using your own whims and choices into telling the market that one product is more important over the other?

 Also, focus on the individual creates economic disparity? Uh-huh. So if I understand you correctly, wars, government supported inflation by the Federal Reserve, taxes, minimum wage laws, bailouts and monopolies, all government sponsored and supported ideas, have absolutely nothing to do with the disparity sent through the market? I'm going to let that sink in for a moment.  Roll Eyes

 Jesus, guys. What the hell have you done to this place? I leave for a few weeks to enjoy vacation with family and friends, and the entire website is overtaken by socialist clap trap. Shocked

 
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 06:33:43 PM »

Yeah I'm done with that for now. An anarchist on the DP forums told me that debating statists is like going in a room filled with gold coins on the ground. Some of them are glued down, and it's not worth wasting your time on those, since there are others with no glue at all. I interpret that as "don't waste your time with ancoms," or anyone who ignores your logic and won't admit when they've lost on a point...so that marks the end of my participation in all the arguments going on here right now.
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 12:16:35 AM »

This guy's analysis of Austrian Economics is spot on.  Economists like Mises spurned the division of labor and did not believe in social cooperation. 


Let me clarify that the above is complete and utter sarcasm.  I guess I didn't use the right font. 

Which is why I said this:

Quote
"Social cooperation" is used 85 times in Human Action.  "Division of Labor", over 100 times.

Sorry for the confusion Seth, Mark. 
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Syock
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2012, 09:51:55 PM »

Jesus, guys. What the hell have you done to this place? I leave for a few weeks to enjoy vacation with family and friends, and the entire website is overtaken by socialist clap trap. Shocked

I am going to have to second this quote.   I can't believe the stuff I have been seeing here.  It is truly amazing.
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MAM
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 01:05:48 AM »

God you're an idiot. "Wage slavery only exists in China". Holy shit you're not even worth talking to.

This quote can only be the result of four things.

1. You are unable to distinguish between "one" and "many" since if ancient Man was able to make this distinction your thought pasterns must be very primitive.

2. JSNTS said an example was China, therefore you are unable to understand the implication that there are more than one.

3. You see what you want to see, not what actually exists.

4. You can't read.

You are the idiot.
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Amagi
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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 10:09:52 AM »

Not a false dichotomy at all. The anarcho-capitalist focuses on "liberty" and "individualism" as the center of their ideology. When you focus on only the individual, or ignore how it affects society as a whole, you end up with, well, capitalist imperialism, wage slavery, economic disparity etc etc.

Mises dismissed statistics as not relevant to economics, that's what I said. You can't understand aggregate behavior without statistics. Statistics is how you find that shit out. You're not very bright, are ya? lol

I would not call myself an Austrian economist, but I have read enough about it to know that the article does not understand Austrian economics and either you did not read Human Action or do not understand it. 

Being a social animal and a rationally self interested being is not mutually exclusive.  In fact, I would say that wanting the "human touch, that connection that keeps us happy and sane" is part of being self interested.  Nowhere does Mises say that economics relies on an individual living on an isolated island by himself. An economy consists of tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, or billions of individuals making choices for themselves on a daily basis.  Nowhere does it imply that individuals are hermits that do not interact with themselves. 

Austrian economists today do not reject empirical work.  If you've read what any Austrian scholars have written you will see that many of their works include data and in some cases econometrics.

Your comments on prices are interesting.  It was the Austrians who came up with the Subjective Theory of Value, and most economists today find it to be valid.  Prices are subjective.  They are not determined by the labor costs + profit margin.  Companies produce new products every day.  In some cases they produce new products that fail.  When they release the product, people will not pay the price that the company sells them for and will only pay less than what the labor costs are.  This happens more than you think.  That's because they think that the new product is not worth the amount of money that is being asked for it.  In these cases, the company have to lower the price and sell these products at a loss (sunk cost), and stop making the product.

The fact is that each individual does have their own preferences.  We all may need food, but I may prefer steal while someone else prefers hamburgers, and a third person prefers hot dogs.  I may only want an 8oz steak and 3 potatoes to consider myself full, while someone else may want a 14oz steak and 1 potato to satiate their hunger.  These are all individual preferences.  When you combine everyone's individual preferences, an economy forms.  When thousands of people are following their individual preferences, companies are created, products are produced, people are hired, and an economy forms through voluntary interaction. 
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Syock
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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2012, 10:18:14 AM »

Very nice first post, and welcome to the forum!  I hope you write an intro post and let us know more about how you made your way to here.

Oh, and have fun arguing with the socialists on the forum. 
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