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Author Topic: Intellectual Property Rights  (Read 18012 times)
MAM
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« on: May 16, 2012, 12:48:58 AM »

So do they exist or not? Personally I don't know if they do... I apologize if this is in For a New Liberty I'm still working on reading it an An Agorist Primer right now.
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DROI
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »

I'd say IP comes down to a fight between physical property, as in I write a copyrighted book on my own paper. IP can't really be stolen since the maker of the idea will still have the idea after it gets "stolen", so I'd say physical property that can actually get stolen trumps IP any day.
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Euler
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 11:29:29 AM »

I don't think they exist. If they did exist in a pure theory though, how would they be enforced in practice?

If there's a rock, it's relatively easy to say whose rock it is. The physical and singular nature of the object allows for quantitative descriptions and observations. Who owns an idea? Is it first come first serve? If so, how do you measure who had an idea first? Does it belong to the person who spent the most time cultivating it? How do you measure that? The enforcement itself seems to require a rather arbitrary body which will determine these issues. Even if they exist in a purely theoretical sense, I don't see a way of fairly enacting them.
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Seth King
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 11:31:41 AM »

Rothbard, I believe, was a proponent of IP, but since Rothbard Stephan Kinsella has come along and destroyed the legitimacy of IP. I highly recommend his book Against Intellectual Property.
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Euler
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 02:08:55 PM »

A summary of Rothbard's views.

Quote
The capsule formulation that most adopt is that Rothbard rejected patents but allowed copyrights. Huebert makes clear that this vastly oversimplifies what Rothbard says.

    Rothbard thought that copyright could be justified if it were the product of a contract. For example, if when Smith sells Jones a book, Smith marks it '"copyright," then Jones only receives from Smith the right to make and use that physical book, but not the right to copy it. . . because a person cannot transfer any more rights than he or she owns, any third parties who later get the book after Jones would be subject to the same restrictions Jones faced. . . . Rothbard justified patents of a sort on similar grounds. If Smith sells Jones a new kind of vacuum cleaner and marks it "patented" (or, as Rothbard would have it "copyrighted"), that tells Jones that he is only receiving the right to the physical object, not the right to make copies of it. (pp. 205-206)

Someone who independently invented the vacuum cleaner would be immune from the reach of the patent.
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Libertyinwv
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 07:57:33 PM »

This TED talk convinced me that IP is arbitrary.

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 08:08:43 PM »

I don't believe in intellectual property.   And this is from someone who CREATES this so-called "IP".

I don't get into all the intellectual and philosophical arguments against IP.   It makes my head hurt.    I explain my position like this:  I don't have the right to tell you what to do with your property.

You buy a car... the car is your property.  There is nothing stopping you from completely disassembling that baby, reverse-engineering every bit of it, and then creating a copy of it with your own raw materials.   Any assertion to the contrary amounts to someone telling you what to do with something that you own.  

Now, substitute a DVD movie for a car and a computer for "raw materials".   Same argument applies.    If you own something, then you have every right to copy it and give it away for free or sell it.

There are some grey areas, however.   What if you don't own the car, and are leasing it instead?   Disassembling and copying it might just violate the lease agreement.    But by the same token, what if you didn't buy that DVD and are instead just using it "under license"... the same way that software is supposedly "sold".      Honestly, I don't know how I feel about these situations.   In the case of the leased car, that's pretty much cut and dried.   But with the software... most people consider that to be buying and not leasing or licensing.   The software companies see it differently.     When I buy a copy of Windows 7, I consider myself as owning that copy, regardless of what the EULA said... but I could be wrong.    

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MAM
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 11:34:56 AM »

It seems to me that without IP then people like authors and film makers would go out of business. They sell a few hundred copies of a book or movie and then everyone else gets it when the original people who bought it give it away. So essentially the people in the arts go out of business...
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 01:19:06 PM »

It seems to me that without IP then people like authors and film makers would go out of business. They sell a few hundred copies of a book or movie and then everyone else gets it when the original people who bought it give it away. So essentially the people in the arts go out of business...

A while back I would have thought the same way, mainly about music and movies, but a lot of bands and filmmakers are against intellectual property rights. Radiohead a few years ago kind of stuck it to IP with allowing people to pay what they wanted for one of their albums. That meant you could pay $10 for it, or you didn't have to pay a damn thing. A lot of bands do that now (Bandcamp allows you to sell your music like that).

I'm a bit of a nerd and love low budget horror and sci-fi movies, there's a movie studio called Troma that I love, and they upload tons and tons of movies to youtube, for everyone free to watch, and they're definitely going out of business.
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JustSayNoToStatism
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 10:03:09 PM »

There are some grey areas, however.   What if you don't own the car, and are leasing it instead?   Disassembling and copying it might just violate the lease agreement.    But by the same token, what if you didn't buy that DVD and are instead just using it "under license"... the same way that software is supposedly "sold".      Honestly, I don't know how I feel about these situations.   In the case of the leased car, that's pretty much cut and dried.   But with the software... most people consider that to be buying and not leasing or licensing.   The software companies see it differently.
Spot on. I have drawn the same "conclusion."
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Euler
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 11:40:47 AM »



A while back I would have thought the same way, mainly about music and movies, but a lot of bands and filmmakers are against intellectual property rights. Radiohead a few years ago kind of stuck it to IP with allowing people to pay what they wanted for one of their albums. That meant you could pay $10 for it, or you didn't have to pay a damn thing. A lot of bands do that now (Bandcamp allows you to sell your music like that).

You can see a new paradigm emerging now where bands offer their music for free and accept donations with the actual required funding coming from the writing and recording process itself. Bands are using Kickstarter with the premise that the actual music they will release won't be recorded and pressed until their required budget is met. In this way,  would be listeners have a non-altruistic reason to contribute and the band avoids the need for label assistance while still offering their actual recorded music for free without use of the State's IP apparatus.

This excites me both as an avid music fan and as an anarchist who despises IP.
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Seth King
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 11:55:48 AM »



A while back I would have thought the same way, mainly about music and movies, but a lot of bands and filmmakers are against intellectual property rights. Radiohead a few years ago kind of stuck it to IP with allowing people to pay what they wanted for one of their albums. That meant you could pay $10 for it, or you didn't have to pay a damn thing. A lot of bands do that now (Bandcamp allows you to sell your music like that).

You can see a new paradigm emerging now where bands offer their music for free and accept donations with the actual required funding coming from the writing and recording process itself. Bands are using Kickstarter with the premise that the actual music they will release won't be recorded and pressed until their required budget is met. In this way,  would be listeners have a non-altruistic reason to contribute and the band avoids the need for label assistance while still offering their actual recorded music for free without use of the State's IP apparatus.

This excites me both as an avid music fan and as an anarchist who despises IP.

Musicians creatively finding ways to make money? What is this world coming to!?!?
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Euler
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 01:05:42 PM »

I know. It's insane. Surely though musicians are the anomaly that can thrive without the State .
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 02:00:47 PM »

As the CEO and proprietor of a space startup, I'm torn on this one. We have thought of a process that would increase the efficiency of carbon dioxide removal systems.

My CBO just convinced me that getting it patented would make the investors take us more seriously. We do need a lot of money to start our operations. We have submitted our executive summary to a major competition in which the judges are well-known investors and business people. If we tell them we're not going to patent our innovation, I can guarantee you they won't give us any money.

BTW, we're applying for the patent under US law. I don't know what the laws are in other countries.

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Seth King
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 06:07:38 PM »

As the CEO and proprietor of a space startup, I'm torn on this one. We have thought of a process that would increase the efficiency of carbon dioxide removal systems.

My CBO just convinced me that getting it patented would make the investors take us more seriously. We do need a lot of money to start our operations. We have submitted our executive summary to a major competition in which the judges are well-known investors and business people. If we tell them we're not going to patent our innovation, I can guarantee you they won't give us any money.

BTW, we're applying for the patent under US law. I don't know what the laws are in other countries.



We need an entire paradigm shift. Getting rid of IP is great, but we will need different ways to fund. Let's say you're into space tourism. A new field, and you've got new ways to get there, etc. The old paradigm is finding investors. Perhaps the new paradigm is selling raffle tickets for $100. Sell a million raffle tickets and raise $100,000,000. Then pick 5 tickets for the first space tourism ride, which normally might cost a million dollars otherwise.

But of course FedGov won't allow you to raffle tickets to raise revenue, so you've got to figure out how to stave them off at the same time.

It's an uphill battle we have to get the things we want in the new paradigm. But when there's a will there's a way.
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