Website Design

[Linux]

Not to mention that PHP is freedom, and ASP is copyright slavery and statism.

[helio]

I've never programmed in it myself, but I can tell you that is has crappy SEO limitations, is generally a lot slower, and runs essentially only on Microsoft's insecure IIS server platform.

ASP is old school, it's no longer standard compliant and doesn't fit the evolving web's demands.

I'm a asp.net developer, full time. I was asking if you knew from experience because I don't want to give JustSayNo a biased recommendation of which is better based upon my limited knowledge and I was hoping you could provide some experience based perspective for JustSayNo.

Classic ASP is slow and Microsoft no longer supports the technology. 

Asp.NET however, is much faster than PhP (some benchmarks i've seen place it around 10x faster) because it is compiled into an intermediate machine language, whereas php is not compiled, but interpreted on demand.  It is true there are some caching options, such as in IIS 7 that speeds it up, but interpreted languages are generally alot slower.  So if JustSayNo's requirements dictate that he will be performing alot of server-side processing, considering asp.net should be taken seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean about SEO limitations.  It depends on your site's architecture and whether SEO is important.

Asp.NET can run on any platform that has a .NET framework port, such as Mono for Linux so it isn't limited to IIS and windows.

Asp.NET is a server side scripting platform just like PhP and has nothing to do with web standards.  Perhaps you are talking about Asp.Net webform's user control library, and I would agree with you about those being antiquated.  However, Asp.Net MVC completely abandons the Webforms architecture in favor of a patterns-based approach.  Asp.NET MVC is a joy to code in and if I were going to build a site from scratch, I would choose Asp.NET MVC in the c# language.  Vanilla Asp.NET with webforms is a pain and the default html and css that gets emitted is very web 1.0ish because the original asp.net came out around 2000.

As for your last post, hating microsoft because they have patents like 99% of the companies out there is fine, but it has no bearing on a technical discussion about which platform is easier to learn.

[helio]

OK, JustSayNO.....

I just spoke with one of the senior guys in our shop who has extensive ASP.NET and PHP experience.  I asked him what he would recommend to someone starting out from scratch with practically zero knowledge of web development.

The Pros of PHP:
for a beginner who will be thinking sequentially, php will be easier to jump into because, like classic asp, php can be written mixed in with html markup.  While this is generally bad for maintenance, it is easy to understand for a beginner.  Furthermore, PHP has object oriented constructs so that once someone has the basics, they can create classes that take advantage of OOP (object oriented programming).

PHP is a loosely typed language.  It will be easier to learn because the beginner won't have to focus on what type of data a variable contains.  This is a con in the long run, as I'll explain, but starting out, not having to think a whole lot about data types can make learning more immediate interests faster, like how to connect to a database and retrieve data.

PHP is very popular and many many big named sites run on it and is very well documented. 

PHP and its webserver software, like Apache, is free and can run on just about any platform. (although this is true of ASP.NET to a degree).

Php has low resource requirements.  I don't have any data to back this up, but since PhP interprets the requested files for each script request, it doesn't really hold onto much in memory.   There are caching tools that can address that I believe.  You don't need an uber-fast server to run it effectively, depending on your application goals and requirements. 

Cons:
It is an interpreted language.  That is, when someone requests a webpage, Apache will load the php file into memory and convert it to machine code on the fly before it can do anything to it.  Depending on the performance requirements of the site (such as a lot of server side computation and calculation) that can slow things down. 

PHP is a loosely typed language.  I know this was a pro, but only from a beginners standpoint.  Because PhP variables can hold any type of data, bugs arise when a variable doesn't contain the right kind of data, like trying to perform a math operation on a variable that holds the string data of "cat".  This will result in strange errors in some cases or no errors with weird results in others.  Strongly typed languages force the developer to specify what kind of data will exist in a variable and once declared that way, cannot be changed.  This plays into the second con.

PHP is an interpreted language.  This was also a pro, and also because it makes it easier to learn.  Since it isn't Compiled down into machine language before execution, there is no way to know without executing the code whether the code has errors.  Compiled or Pre-Compiled platforms allow the developer to run a build process that will attempt to assemble the code into machine language.  During this process, syntax errors, statement mismatches, and type safety are checked and allow the developer to know ahead of time that there are problems.  Compile Time Safety is your friend. 

I intended to ask him about PHP IDE's (Integrated Development Environments) and how they stack up to Visual Studio, which is the defacto Asp.NET development environment.  I love studio and can't imagine writing code without it because it has many many features that makes writing code a pretty fast process as well as a built-in debugger.   In all honesty, I can't compare studio to any of the PHP IDE's like Eclipse as I've not used those so this isn't a pro or con.

With all that said, I really do want to get more into PHP development, as I have only worked on one project, but being a full time .NET developer doesn't leave much time for that pursuit.  Personally, I don't hate microsoft. I don't blame Microsoft for the evils of intellectual property as M$ didn't create the state; the state created M$.    I don't have any qualms about using their technology when it suits my needs just like I don't have a problem driving on government roads or eating food grown with government subsidy.  I personally like having a company that depends on satisfying it's customers in order to survive. 

If you just hate microsoft, then that settles what you should choose. 

[JustSayNoToStatism]

Wow. So much advice from everyone...I appreciate it. The fact that there are so many options makes it overwhelming for someone like me, but I suppose it's actually a good thing for people in the know, because they can choose the correct language for what they need. Unfortunately I'm not at the understanding level to fully comprehend this discussion, but I'll check into the education links. Thanks.

[Linux]

Regardless of which language you go for, I would say you should use a CMS seeing as you aren't making something that requires custom server-side scripting.

Wordpress is amazing.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

How do you know I don't need this server side scripting? I almost have the designs all set for what I want it to do and how all the pages interact and everything, but I will have difficulty figuring out what I need to make it happen. I also think there is money to be made with the site, so giving away the details could be dangerous... Sometimes I think I should have gone into computer sciencey type stuff, but then I remember that the only reason I would have wanted to is for entrepreneurship opportunities, and it seems that those computer skills are getting too specific. It's hard to know what to do when we're raised to be obedient slaves and employees throughout our time as youths. We're told to "study hard so you can get a good job." It's never, "Learn skills so you can own your own business."

But now I'm just rambling.

[Linux]

Could you divulge a little on what the site structure is going to be? Because I do all my sites in Wordpress (.org), as it takes care of all the standard stuff and leaves me with the frontend design.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

I need to be able to have user accounts that can create posts in a manner similar to a forum (but not using premade forum systems, because it's a little different). You know how some forums allow people to modify an attribute of another person's account? Like Reputation points or w/e? It needs something like that. It also needs a search function with the ability to narrow it down based on certain characteristics; characteristics which a user can choose when they make a post.

So that's a small introduction to the type of features I need. It's probably not enough info to really help you help me out, but unfortunately I can't say much about it.

[helio]

I think you could mod those features. Since most CMS systems are open source, you can write your own pluggin or mod it to suit your needs.  Maybe you could set up a site locally on your own box and start tinkering to learn with. 

[JustSayNoToStatism]

Okay, so I read a tutorial on HTML on echoecho.com. It seems as though I underestimated HTML's capabilities. The whole language seems really natural to me, having background with BASIC, and regular forum use. Now I'm starting their tutorial on CSS. They start by saying that you will have to cache the style sheet on the visitors' computers. Does this mean it will require enabling cookies? I don't want to limit who can use the site. But it seems that layering would be useful for me, so CSS seems pretty useful. I'm thinking I'll study CSS, then I'll start learning about databases, and figure out whether I need SQL or whatever. I'll also need to find server applications that can process form data. So if anyone could give pros and cons of different database systems, or other resources that could help me learn, it'd be great. Thanks!

[Seth King]

CSS is mandatory. Big fan of MySQL.

[Linux]

Okay, so I read a tutorial on HTML on echoecho.com. It seems as though I underestimated HTML's capabilities. The whole language seems really natural to me, having background with BASIC, and regular forum use. Now I'm starting their tutorial on CSS. They start by saying that you will have to cache the style sheet on the visitors' computers. Does this mean it will require enabling cookies? I don't want to limit who can use the site. But it seems that layering would be useful for me, so CSS seems pretty useful. I'm thinking I'll study CSS, then I'll start learning about databases, and figure out whether I need SQL or whatever. I'll also need to find server applications that can process form data. So if anyone could give pros and cons of different database systems, or other resources that could help me learn, it'd be great. Thanks!

I don't think CSS even has the capability to mess with cookies. It's function is solely for layout and design. Cookies and cache are two different thinks.

You still should use a CMS. You cannot do all that you want with HTML, CSS, or even Javascript - it needs to have server side scripting as well if you want accounts and dynamic pages.

[helio]

MySql is free.

Don't worry about cookies for now. 

You should spend a good bit of time on CSS.  Mastering CSS layout (without using tables) can be a challenge because of the different quirks each browser has.  This is easily the area of greatest frustration for me professionally is figuring out how to achieve a design that works across the major browsers without hickups.

I think after you get a handle on CSS and Html, you will want to get into the server side scripting aspect, the php part if you are going that route.  Just to learn php, install php and the apache server (you can google it) and start learning the basics of how to write a php script that serves up a page.

Basically your php code will 'emit' html markup and 'bind' data from your database to your markup.  So you won't have any html files.

Once you get the rudiments of how server side scripting works, then you should learn about database structures, table design, keys, indexing, and how to write Structured Query Language statements to work with the data.  Then learn how to connect to a database from php and how to execute the queries to CRUD (create, read, update, and delete) the data.

Once you got all that, go get a CMS like wordpress and start tinkering.

At some point, you'll need javascript knowledge for doing cool things with the html and css like fancy menus that animate and such, but that can wait awhile.

[Linux]

At some point, you'll need javascript knowledge for doing cool things with the html and css like fancy menus that animate and such, but that can wait awhile.

HTML5 has replaced some of the things we used to do with JS, I hope someday it will completely phase out JS for page effects.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

So far, I've studied tutorials in HTML, CSS, PHP, and MySQL. I don't "know" these languages (or the details of all the syntax). The goal isn't to become fluent in them. I should know just enough to conceptualize the designing process, since I can look up the tags when I need to. The advice from everyone thus far has been enormously helpful. I am actually starting to understand the big picture of how a website works, and what you were talking about before with the difference between server side and client side.

Most recently, I've gone over php and mysql. Those tutorials acted as an introduction to the server side of things. One of the features that will require a bit of planning is the mysql as was predicted by helio.

-So, helio, you recommended learning about database structures. Do you (or anyone else) have a favorite resource for me to read online?
-Also, when I use PHP to get a cell of info out of a MySQL table, and I finally am able to "echo" it, can I just use html/css to position WHERE it will put that info? Is that a good use of the layout and dividing features of html?