Website Design

[JustSayNoToStatism]

Hey all, I know we have some tech people here, so clue me in. I have an idea for a website (don't worry Seth, I'm not competing with you!). I know nothing about programming or website design. I was good at using BASIC on the TI calculators when I was in high school, but nothing on a computer, haha. My site needs to have databases, user accounts, and search function options. I have a good portion of it in my head, but I have no way of going from the brain to the computer. I know custom websites cost about $3K and I also feel kind of pathetic for living in the internet age and knowing nothing about it. So if I can avoid paying this I would like to, even if it takes a lot of time (since it's a skill I could use again).

Is it necessary for me to learn and become fluent in a bunch of different languages to do this, or could I feasibly textbook and cherry pick my way through, learning just what I need to do exactly what I want. I seriously know nothing though. Do you buy the software to do these things? Do you purchase programming programs (if that even makes sense)? Before I start learning languages or parts of them, where can I read an overview of how all this works in the big picture? How do databases and other components get tied together?

Thanks!

[Seth King]

You have the option of paying for hosting, or hosting your own on your server. That is the first question that must be answered.

I paid for hosting for one year before I built my own server. I didn't know anything about anything when I started building this website. Fortunately, I had my wife to sort of guide my hand the first couple of weeks, after that I was on my own.

If you are a control and security freak like I am, than you really have no choice but to build your own server. If not, then go with paid hosting. I used Bravehost and was happy enough with the product. Definitely avoid GoDaddy.

If you want to build your own server to host your own website(my recommendation) then I would sign up with Linode(Virtual Private Server-i.e. not using your own hardware-way cheaper). They have EXCELLENT tutorials that really walk you through building a server. You won't know what the heck you're doing as you're doing it, but you will learn after you spend a lot of time on the IRC channel they have set up. If you are going to sign up with Linode make sure you ask me for my referral code first. I get $20 off my next month's bill.

So, go ahead and set yourself up with hosting first for your website. After you've done that, let me know what you've chosen and I'll help you with step two. =)

[JustSayNoToStatism]

So...pay for hosting, or host on your own server... but you are still paying to do it yourself?

To add to my original list of questions, where is a good place to get an overview of how all this DNS, servers, hosting, domain blah blah blah fits together.

[helio]

It depends what your website's goal is as to what tools and strategies you should use.

It might be that you can do what Seth did and use a Content Management System with your own private server if your site has common features like a forum, membership and authentication, menu navigation, banner ads, ecommerce, etc.

But if you are wanting to do something that isn't common or even unique, you'll have to code those pieces from scratch, or maybe even the whole thing if it is unique enough. 

In difference to Seth, security is a much bigger topic than running your own box. It depends on what risk/reward formula you are comfortable with.  For example, Seth's box is probably very vulnerable to Denial of Service attacks, but a virtual box hosted at a massive co-location in the cloud you have more flexibility, provided you can afford it.  It depends what kind of information you need to secure.

In the beginning, don't get overwhelmed by all the choices.  Don't try to go for the perfect solution, just aim for the best that is simplest until you learn more.  Don't be afraid to make mistakes, because you'll make a ton of them.  Also, if you have a good idea that you believe can make some money, finding a few people with the skills you need who are willing to work for a future slice of the earnings could be a way to go as well.

[Seth King]

So...pay for hosting, or host on your own server... but you are still paying to do it yourself?

To add to my original list of questions, where is a good place to get an overview of how all this DNS, servers, hosting, domain blah blah blah fits together.

I didn't know any of that stuff until I built my own server. You learn as you go. Yes, you pay for Linode, and it is more expensive than a simple shared host, but what you'll learn in the process, and the control you'll get, is well worth it, IMO. Plus, Linode has a really awesome IRC channel. I know, I know, big whoop, right? Well, a lot of channels aren't busy with enough people to help you, and if they are, they are often snobby about things and will spend more time teasing you than helping you.

But at the Linode IRC channel there are always a ton of people there willing and eager to help and teach. The chat alone is worth the money.

It depends what your website's goal is as to what tools and strategies you should use.

In difference to Seth, security is a much bigger topic than running your own box. It depends on what risk/reward formula you are comfortable with.  For example, Seth's box is probably very vulnerable to Denial of Service attacks, but a virtual box hosted at a massive co-location in the cloud you have more flexibility, provided you can afford it.  It depends what kind of information you need to secure.

Helio makes a good point here. Security isn't something that you purchase. Security is comprised of the choices you make. Everything you do is risk/reward. Helio is right that my website is vulnerable to DDoS attacks. But I have very little concern that I will be a target of a DDoS attack, and even if I do, the effect of being hit by one of those attacks is of minimal concern. So, I don't put any time, effort or money into that. On the other hand, I am very concerned about getting cracked, so I've put a lot more energy into protecting the site in that regard. That's not to say that the site is bulletproof or anything, just that it's a lot more secure than your average website.

The point I was trying to make though, is that when you host your own website, you have a lot more control over things, which I like.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

So it seems like if you "serve" it yourself, you still have to have it hosted, I could sound like a moron here, but at this point I'm not convinced of the benefit. I can always switch later.

As for designing the site. I guess I have to make it from scratch. I need to have user accounts, where the users can change certain attributes of other users' accounts, and where they can all create their own posts. So I guess I need databases as well. Which languages do I need to get started on, and are they compatible with each other and functional on different operating systems?
AH so much!

[helio]

Hosting is basically the computer harddrive the html, database, and server code lives on.  You can do this yourself.  The domain name is registered through a domain name registry service. Network Solutions or Godaddy (and many many others) can do that for you. Registering the Domain is very cheap, a few bucks a year, while hosting costs depends on your site.

You have to ask yourself how much traffic do you expect to handle, how much server processing has to occur on that traffic before you consider what your hosting options are.  If you are going to host video content, you probably don't want to do that from a box at home as your local internet service provider will get pretty upset if they see your account dealing with terabytes of data.  You'll almost have to have a third party host it or go with a co-lo like the company I work for does.  With the co-lo, our company owns the boxes, the security hardware and their configuration, and has cameras monitoring who accesses our gear.  But there are people on hand provided by the co-lo to help us do things, since the co-lo is 8 hours away from here.

With that said...

What I recommend you do is create a design document first.  Basically write down all your ideas from a user's perspective.  Like, 'user goes to their account page, and clicks on the button that hides their avatar.'  These are called use-case scenarios and are indispensable in creating a set of requirements that you should base your technical decisions from. 

When you know specifically what you think you want your users to do, and what kind of response the server will generate to those actions, then you can ask more specific questions that will help determine what pieces of technology best solve those problems.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

Thanks Seth and helio. I'll do the design document first, and see what features I need.

[Linux]

It seams that with the fairly standard functions you want you'd be best to go with a self-hosted Wordpress site. You can extend the functionality of WP with plugins, and it's very secure as it's been around for a while, and is open-source.

Just out of curiosity what's this site going to be?

Also, I'm new here, I read the blog and am a fully-convinced Anarcho-capitalist.

[xphoenix]

If you're looking to do some programming yourself, you might want to look into Ruby on Rails.  It's a relatively straight-forward development model, but if you're coming from a background of little programming experience, it might be more of a learning curve.  I code web applications for a living (not with Rails though) and from what I've experienced by playing around with it, it's a lot easier than some other programmed solutions (and free).

Others have mentioned content management systems like Wordpress which might also be viable options for you.  I have never used any of these so I can't offer much advice on that.

[ff42]

Depending on how much you want to get into the details I recommend http://www.w3schools.com/ as a place to teach yourself html, php, etc.

And of course before start dishing out the $$$ do two things:

1) Put your site up on your LAN
2) Access it with a multitude of different browsers

[helio]

Either of you have asp.net and php experience?

[Linux]

Either of you have asp.net and php experience?

I have basic PHP experience. ASP is Microsoft crap... Ugg *washes ears after hearing the word "ASP"*

[helio]

ASP is Microsoft crap

Is that from experience or what you've heard?

[Linux]

I've never programmed in it myself, but I can tell you that is has crappy SEO limitations, is generally a lot slower, and runs essentially only on Microsoft's insecure IIS server platform.

ASP is old school, it's no longer standard compliant and doesn't fit the evolving web's demands.