The Rebranding of Libertarianism

[JustSayNoToStatism]

I think it's interesting to see the influence of libertarian anarchism on political minarchism. Look at how Adam Kokesh's show started off with an intro that had American flags, and now he's an anarchist. Peter Schiff ran for the Senate, and Stefan Molyneux now runs his show periodically. Tom Woods (an anarchist) writes books that get the stamp of approval from "Conservative" book clubs. This thread can be where we report cases of anarchism creeping into the "regular" libertarian movement. So I guess I've given a few obvious examples. If anyone else sees others, please share. I'll do the same.

[Coltan L.]

https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/192334575299608576

Weigel is a total stooge for Slate magazine, which is maybe the worst thing not in print.  Funny thing is he's their nominally libertarian writer. Subjective definition of words.

[BobRobertson]

I really enjoy reading Glen Greenwald on Salon, about 90% is great and then he'll throw in something completely statist that just blows all the good out of the water.

[MAM]

I've noticed quite a bit of new rhetoric slipping in to the political ads here in NM I don't know if that is due to Ron Paul or too the Anarchists. But hey it's good either way isn't it?

[Coltan L.]

I really enjoy reading Glen Greenwald on Salon, about 90% is great and then he'll throw in something completely statist that just blows all the good out of the water.

http://www.salon.com/2012/06/02/deliberate_media_propaganda/singleton/#comments
This!

I love this guy, I just don't get how someone can so thoroughly impressively almost sorta get it.  But not quite.

[negator]

stossel is the right libertarian greenwald.

[Coltan L.]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

[MAM]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

[macsnafu]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

They don't?  I did, but then it's something that takes a little effort to get a full appreciation of it.  It's one thing to say that "the market will take care of it", and another thing to realize how markets are created and how they actually work in all their complexity.

[Coltan L.]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

Libertarians are different from ancaps because libertarians believe in politics still. A night watchman state is still a state.  Libertarianism is a political philosophy. If you have a state court and a state police force that means you have state taxes.  You don't have spontaneous order. You have martially imposed order.  You have a monopoly on order. 

Spontaneous order as it is often used favors the free market and not a mostly free market. Or that's my take.
 

[MAM]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

Libertarians are different from ancaps because libertarians believe in politics still. A night watchman state is still a state.  Libertarianism is a political philosophy. If you have a state court and a state police force that means you have state taxes.  You don't have spontaneous order. You have martially imposed order.  You have a monopoly on order. 

Spontaneous order as it is often used favors the free market and not a mostly free market. Or that's my take.
 

Spontaneous Order occurs in the physical sciences as well.

[JustSayNoToStatism]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

Libertarians are different from ancaps because libertarians believe in politics still. A night watchman state is still a state.  Libertarianism is a political philosophy. If you have a state court and a state police force that means you have state taxes.  You don't have spontaneous order. You have martially imposed order.  You have a monopoly on order. 

Spontaneous order as it is often used favors the free market and not a mostly free market. Or that's my take.
 

You are free to think of it that way, but I consider market anarchism to fall under the umbrella of libertarianism. In fact, I prefer both the terms "market anarchist" and "anarcho-libertarian" over "anarcho-capitalist."

[macsnafu]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

Libertarians are different from ancaps because libertarians believe in politics still. A night watchman state is still a state.  Libertarianism is a political philosophy. If you have a state court and a state police force that means you have state taxes.  You don't have spontaneous order. You have martially imposed order.  You have a monopoly on order. 

Spontaneous order as it is often used favors the free market and not a mostly free market. Or that's my take.
 

You are free to think of it that way, but I consider market anarchism to fall under the umbrella of libertarianism. In fact, I prefer both the terms "market anarchist" and "anarcho-libertarian" over "anarcho-capitalist."

Yep.  Not all libertarians are ancaps, but all ancaps are libertarians.

[Coltan L.]

Yeah, how could we forget Stossel. I think he'll make it all the way to ancap.  He's reading Rothbard and he hates the state because he was regular state worshipper so long and he watched it fail from the inside. He also says "spontaneous order" like 5 times a show. Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order.

What do you mean by "Libertarians don't really buy into spontaneous order."?

What do you mean when you say 'libertarian'?

Libertarians are different from ancaps because libertarians believe in politics still. A night watchman state is still a state.  Libertarianism is a political philosophy. If you have a state court and a state police force that means you have state taxes.  You don't have spontaneous order. You have martially imposed order.  You have a monopoly on order. 

Spontaneous order as it is often used favors the free market and not a mostly free market. Or that's my take.
 

You are free to think of it that way, but I consider market anarchism to fall under the umbrella of libertarianism. In fact, I prefer both the terms "market anarchist" and "anarcho-libertarian" over "anarcho-capitalist."

Yep.  Not all libertarians are ancaps, but all ancaps are libertarians.

I guess I don't get how you guys are using libertarian then. If its not about politics I don't understand how it is different than ancap.

[macsnafu]

You are free to think of it that way, but I consider market anarchism to fall under the umbrella of libertarianism. In fact, I prefer both the terms "market anarchist" and "anarcho-libertarian" over "anarcho-capitalist."

Yep.  Not all libertarians are ancaps, but all ancaps are libertarians.

I guess I don't get how you guys are using libertarian then. If its not about politics I don't understand how it is different than ancap.

In some cases, it's not different from ancap, but people don't usually become ancap over night.  I became a libertarian when I discovered the NAP, but it still took me a few more years of thought to realize that the NAP logically implies ancap. 

Other people become libertarians for various reasons: Natural law, Constitutionalism, self-ownership, etc., and these don't all logically lead to ancap.  All libertarians believe in the general ideas of personal liberty and individual rights, or as Wikipedia puts it:

Libertarianism refers to the group of political philosophies that emphasize freedom, liberty, and voluntary association. There is no general consensus among scholars on the precise definition. Libertarians generally advocate a society with a government of small scope relative to most present day societies or no government whatsoever.

...which is actually a pretty good way to describe it, all things considered.  Obviously, many of those who believe in minarchism will believe that engaging in electoral politics will be the way to achieve their desired government. 

Some will outgrow that.  As for the rest, it's up to us to convince them on the silliness of minarchism.