SHTF Preparations

[SinCityVoluntaryist]

 OK. We've had discussions here on the shit hitting (literally) the fan, but there's one questions we haven't covered: getting ready. Even if you DON'T believe that something major will happen, it's always good to have some sense of survivalism on hand. I've learned through my own libertarian education just how important it is to stay on top of things by understanding the nature of reality. I've taken many steps, and I would like to know what you guys have done to get ready for a collapse of any kind.

 I have a nice collection of knives, but I know next to nothing on the nature on the aspects of combat whe using them. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube on what to do when you have to go into combat with them.

[AgoristTeen1994]

I believe I told you what my preps are...ya think I should post the entirety of them here? note I always use tor when I access the site making it a bit harder for the .gov goons to track me....also I'm going to be expanding the preps soon and telling almost no one the additions

[Syock]

OK. We've had discussions here on the shit hitting (literally) the fan, but there's one questions we haven't covered: getting ready.

I am curious what you all think will kick off the SHTF scenario. 

Why?  Are you doing anything about it? 

It has been discussed a bit.  hehe

[Agrarian_Agorist]

Study the Amish.  Everything which people are afraid of, the Amish already deal with.  They live without electricity, they live without gasoline; and earlier the live a completely independent lifestyle while being able to help their fellow Amish.

The key to their ability to not be effected by what happens is due to their independence from the different systems which modern people have become so dependent upon.

While you may say that you don't want to live without electricity, and who really does; but the point being is that if you cannot provide it, then you are dependent on a system which is rigid and can be controlled -thereby controlling all who are dependent upon that system.

Survivalists state that to survive one needs: food, water, shelter and security; but if one cannot provide these things for themselves or their family, then one becomes dependent upon others to provide these things -this can be a very undesirable situation.

Storing food, water, guns, and ammo are nice, but if one cannot continually replenish the supplies then one is only prolonging their dependency on others to provide for them.  This is fine if one thinks that whatever SHTF scenario is only going to be temporary; but if the SHTF scenario become permanent or even just a very long time-frame, then one is up-shits-creek-without-a-paddle -as they say.

If you really want to be secure in the future, no matter what it holds, then it is imperative that you become as food, water, and energy independent as possible.  In a SHTF scenario, eventually people will be willing to provide these things for you; but you most likely will not like the price.

I said on the last discussion post by Syock, that I really don't think that those who haven't sufficiently prepared by now, have the time to prepare; because it will cost a large amount of money to do so.  Time is money; if one squanders the time, then it will cost more money.

I suppose, what I'm saying is that Homesteading is the only really way to protect oneself and ones family, and if people haven't already started this, then it is, more than likely, to late to start now.

Food trading will be the first market to arise, as it was the first market ever to arise; only after the necessities are taken care of will any other objects really become affordable in the market place; however, this doesn't mean that food will be affordable either.  It just means that food will be the first thing which starts the market, and it will be the first thing to become affordable.  The reason this is, would be because food is the only truly renewable resource.  If nobody has the ability to manufacture bullets, then any bullets on the market will hold a extremely high value until such time that bullets become a renewable commodity.

So, if one wanted to not only survive but thrive in event of a collapse then one should not only be food independent -to which one could sell or trade any excesses- but one should have the ability to provide continually something which would be of an extremely high value in a collapse.

Like I stated earlier, though; if people haven't figured this out by now, it seems a little late-in-the-day to start now.

[Syock]

Study the Amish.  Everything which people are afraid of, the Amish already deal with.  They live without electricity, they live without gasoline; and earlier the live a completely independent lifestyle while being able to help their fellow Amish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_furniture#Techniques

The key to their ability to not be effected by what happens is due to their independence from the different systems which modern people have become so dependent upon.

While you may say that you don't want to live without electricity, and who really does; but the point being is that if you cannot provide it, then you are dependent on a system which is rigid and can be controlled -thereby controlling all who are dependent upon that system.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Gppi-O3a8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Gppi-O3a8</a>

Independence is an illusion.  

[Agrarian_Agorist]

@ Syock

As for your first part; maybe I should have stated Pennsylvania Amish.  I haven't met one Amish person in PA which allows the use electricity at all; no matter what it is created by.

As for the video; I'm unable to see it due to an error which occurred while I was updated Ubuntu; some Flash works others do not.

The point I was getting at was, traditional Amish who do not utilize electric at all are not going to have a problem if the grid goes down; nor will they have  a problem if oil sky-rockets in price.  The traditional Amish will also not have a problem if something happened to transportation; since they grow their own food.

Sure there are some Amish communities which allow electric by generator, and there are other Amish communities which engage in other acts of modern man.  However, the point I was trying to make was; modern man has become too dependent on systems, products, people, Corporations, and Government to provide the basic necessities to live, which the dependent individuals have no control over.

   If people are not willing to take the responsibility to provide for themselves the basic necessities to live, then those people are beholden to something to provide those necessities for them; that doesn't really sound like a 'Free' people to me.  Also, being so dependent on things which are out of the individuals control, makes economic downturns that much greater and allows for individuals to be manipulated by either the offering of food or by tugging on a person heart strings that, this all could have been prevented if there was just (more) government control over the marketplace.

    Leaving people vulnerable to such manipulations doesn't sound all that intellectual anarchist to me; because we know that some people will manipulate others for the creation of government or bigger government, so if we are on an intellectual revolution to prevent government growth and also to reverse government to nothingness then the burden falls upon us to help people to be less dependent on systems which the government already has a stranglehold over.  Thereby 'freeing' people from their dependence on government and other systems which are beyond the individuals control; which will then, of course, -lessen if not completely- rid the individual of fear of what might happen if the market crashes. This would be  a much more stable environment then an environment of interdependencies, which would inherently contain the possibility of the interdependencies being manipulated to allow for a government to be created out of a 'free' society; or in our particular instance, the manipulation of the interdependencies will allow for the government to expand ever greater as the market crashes.

[Syock]

As for your first part; maybe I should have stated Pennsylvania Amish.  I haven't met one Amish person in PA which allows the use electricity at all; no matter what it is created by.

PA Amish I encounter use electric all the time.  They use electric scales, computers, refrigerators etc.


Try this link for the video.  http://www.fileupyours.com/files/329274/Power_of_the_Market_The_Pencil.ogg

Leaving people vulnerable to such manipulations doesn't sound all that intellectual anarchist to me...

I see nothing intellectually ancapish in giving up the capitalist system including division of labor, which you refer to as interdependency.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchoprimitivism

[Agrarian_Agorist]

@ Syock

Maybe some Amish do use those things, but the ones I have met don't; I meantiond that some do things like modern man, but the Amish which I've met don't.

That video worked much better thanks.

I never said give-up the free market system.

I suppose our differences lie in what you think will happen directly after a collapse and what I think will happen directly after a collapse.  I created my version of what will happen directly after a collapse based on every collapse and partial collapse that has ever happened; and yes even Somalia.

When you look at the collapse of Somalia what you see is after the initial collapse, when normalcy prevailed until the US and UK started funding the Ethiopians to start a war, and then for the US to provide weapons to the warlords in Somalia.  However, what you don't see is, in the very beginning after the collapse it was the warlords running things, until they used up too much ammunition to keep the people in-line.  This brought about the peace that you recognize as the aftermath of the Somalian collapse.

The reason for the funding of the Ethiopians and then the warlords was and is to prevent the world from seeing what is possible without government.  However, it still took time before the peace and free market were able to emerge.  This time variable from collapse to free market and peace is one of the things I would like to diminish -if not eliminate- thereby lessening the possibility of a government from coming back.

People are not dependent on pencils, nor are they dependent on computers or many other things including some of their food.  So, in my idea of a better society the free market would actually be more robust then it is now, or even under your version of society; with a lot more risk being taken on inventions and such because people wouldn't have to worry about starving to death, but they would possibly end-up eating the same food day-in and day-out.

People aren't going to lie awake at night and worry that they wont be able to get a new computer after a crash; but people do worry that they might not be able to have food to eat during an economic downturn, let a lone a collapse.  This is the fear which will be utilized to enact a government or expand the government; this is what I would like to see not happen.

Also, the division of labor analogy was used to tie the world's economies together; that wasn't such a smart idea, with or without government.  This creates the idea of too big to fail, because of the interdependencies.  While you may argue that none of that would even be possible if we never had a government in the first place, and I would be mostly inclined to agree with you; but that doesn't change the fact that one cannot go back in time and prevent the government from ever being formed.  Therefore, you will be hard pressed to convince enough people to accept the initial hardship of a collapse -which will be great for most people- for the future benefit of living without a government.

[BobRobertson]

I thought it would be Mennonite, rather than Amish, but it seems that there are small groups of both which attempt to eschew technology.

Not that I blame them. There's a lot to natural foods and living close to the land that I would love to do again myself. Horses and chickens are wonderful, it just takes a fortune to live that way.

[Syock]

I suppose our differences lie in what you think will happen directly after a collapse and what I think will happen directly after a collapse.  I created my version of what will happen directly after a collapse based on every collapse and partial collapse that has ever happened; and yes even Somalia.

Then I think you missed all of the collapses where life just goes on.  Farmers still want to make money, businesses still want to make money.  It isn't like everyone has to panic and run around shooting each other.  

[helio]

In the short term im doing very little as most of my money is going for my upcoming wedding and furnishing our apartment and paying off debt.  Long term I want to buy some woodland real estate in northern NH and set it up as a voluntarist recreational retreat for my friends to use in a shtf scenario.  The one thing i see as vital more than other factors is having a group of ppl around you that you trust.

[Agrarian_Agorist]

I suppose our differences lie in what you think will happen directly after a collapse and what I think will happen directly after a collapse.  I created my version of what will happen directly after a collapse based on every collapse and partial collapse that has ever happened; and yes even Somalia.

Then I think you missed all of the collapses where life just goes on.  Farmers still want to make money, businesses still want to make money.  It isn't like everyone has to panic and run around shooting each other.  

A collapse where people still want to make 'money'?  What is money in or directly after a collapse?  What people want during or directly after a collapse is to survive.

Also, most US farmers are using GMO seeds from Monsanto.  Farmers are no longer allowed to collect seeds from their crops, so the farmers have to buy their seeds new every year from Monsanto.  If a collapse were to happen, then it is highly probable that the large farmers wont have any seeds available to plant; leaving smaller organic farms to try and pull the load -so to speak- which the smaller farms are not capable of doing.

Businesses still want to make money, but without a predefined definition of what money is what are they going to make?  Is Apple going to start doing what exactly to get their new Ipads from China?  What would Apple pay their employees with?  This can go for every industry in the US.  Who is going to worry about an Ipad or a car, when they have no way of providing food for their family?

[Syock]

Half of Europe has been dealing with a collapse of their economies.  The only place making a stink about it is Greece, and only because they still want all the free stuff.

[Agrarian_Agorist]

Half of Europe has been dealing with a collapse of their economies.  The only place making a stink about it is Greece, and only because they still want all the free stuff.

I certainly hope that you are joking, because the only country thus-far that is actually dealing with anything close to a collapse is Greece.  While Spain, Portugal, and Italy will be the next countries severely hit, then to come France and the rest of the European Union; but for you to say half of Europe is dealing with a collapse of their economies is farcical.  The rest of Europe haven't seen anything yet; right now the ECB is 'trying' to prevent it from actually going any further than where it is currently at by trying to impose new powers onto the ECB which will allow it to control all of the Central Banks of the individual countries of the EU -this is mainly for the benefit of Germany which is the economic powerhouse of the EU and also a Nation which is deeply dependent on exporting to survive and thrive.  Without the ability to export due to a real collapse of the individual EU countries Germany would wither and die, because they know nothing else then to export their goods.

This is why interdependencies for mire survival is a bad idea; once one domino falls they all begin to fall, and when the pain really comes they all will be clamoring for leadership and a world government. 

The Central Bankers are using people's and country's weaknesses against them.  They created the EU whereby Germany became ever more-so dependent on exportation and many of the other countries became ever more-so dependent on importation so as this begins to unfold each country is battling each other for survival.  Meanwhile the BIS, World Bank, The Fed, and the ECB as well as other large central banks are planning the collapse to best suit their interests which is for it(the collapse) to cause enough amount of pain and the right time to get them all to beg for a world government; this will include the US.

If you really want to know what is going on then I suggest to you to research the RAND Corporation.

Here is a very good book on the RAND Corporation:
Soldiers of Reason: The RAND Corporation and the Rise of the American Empire

[Syock]

Iceland fell long before Greece.  They defaulted and came back without bloodshed and rioting.  The Celtic tiger went down the toilet with a 14% GDP contraction and high unemployment.  Many countries around the world go through hyperinflation without mass deaths and general SHTF issues on a fairly regular basis.  

You are mixing examples saying there wouldn't be any system in place for this or that, yet somehow that they will stop people from planting seeds through a legal system that survives.  How is Monsanto suppose to pay their lawyers without money?  Your not being consistent in your fear mongering.  

You can't point at the stupidity of politicians and say we can't have a division of labor in the free market because of them.  It doesn't translate across.